Deer regs 2015 gun season

[smsmith]

Winters and cold Springs had far more to do with the deer crash than the harvest or habitat did.

Come on...there is one major reason why we've experienced the deer crash in this state. Far too liberal antlerless tag allocation. Secondary reason...far too many hunters who don't pay attention to what's going on around them, who blindly took the word of the DNR, and who were far too eager to buy and fill the antlerless tags the DNR sold.

Winters of '12-'13 and '13-'14 exacerbated the situation but are far from the major reason for the crash. The winter of '11-'12 was one of the mildest on record. We didn't lose all these deer in 2 years. We lost them over a decade due to excessive antlerless harvest...period.

[BLACKJACK]

Yes Wisconsin has more deer than central MN but look at their habitat of rolling hills with woodlands and pasture land. If you look at the number of licenses ND and SD are issuing their deer populations are below that of MN. MN could support more deer IF we had more habitat in the farm areas. There are multiple deer drives in just about every wood lot in farm country that the deer cannot survive - they have no place to hide. We have what we have in central and southern MN farm country due to habitat and nothing the DNR would do would change that. You can't shoot a deer that the land cannot support. Funny that this exact same story can be played out with the pheasant - it is all about habitat.

After driving to Milwaukee on 90 and back on 94 I'd have to agree, it looks like very good deer habitat, woods, small fields, even the big fields ringed by woods. And the farmers haven't done as much clearing every stick of woods like you see in central MN.

[BLACKJACK]

We lost them over a decade due to excessive antlerless harvest...period.

And I think the whole APR movement, 'spare a small buck, shoot a doe' has had an affect, every one of those does shot is two less fawns on the ground. Even in areas where APR's is not required, the push has been away from brown its down, shoot a doe instead. Did it myself last year during late bow season, had 8 does/fawns and a small buck come by me, shot a doe. Twenty years ago I would have shot that little buck.

[smsmith]

I'd call it more of a QDMA impact Blackjack, but either way...a possibly valid point. I don't see any of that around here however as most everyone is still shooting every buck they see. MN's total harvest is still composed of over 50% bucks. In most big whitetail States buck harvest is more like 35-40%.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

Winters and cold Springs had far more to do with the deer crash than the harvest or habitat did.

Couldn't disagree any more.... Winterkill surely played factors the further north you go, but it sure doesn't explain why the central swath of MN harvest numbers have plummeted so much.

Plain and simple, the transition zones of MN and south were flat out demolished by harvest.

North of that area, I think your argument holds a little more water the further north you go.

[mntatonka]

Couldn't disagree any more.... Winterkill surely played factors the further north you go, but it sure doesn't explain why the central swath of MN harvest numbers have plummeted so much.

Plain and simple, the transition zones of MN and south were flat out demolished by harvest.

North of that area, I think your argument holds a little more water the further north you go.

a long winter causes less fawns to be born, and a cold wet spring will kill more fawns than you can imagine. Without those fawns to replenish the herd, the population plummets. Yes, hunters and the slow DNR don't help that.

[Black Bear]

In my opinion, on the Southern 1/3 of the State, hunter harvest dictates deer population levels. The cars, coyotes and poaching certainly get some but the deer density levels primary determinate is hunter harvest.

[PurpleFloyd]

And I think the whole APR movement, 'spare a small buck, shoot a doe' has had an affect, every one of those does shot is two less fawns on the ground. Even in areas where APR's is not required, the push has been away from brown its down, shoot a doe instead. Did it myself last year during late bow season, had 8 does/fawns and a small buck come by me, shot a doe. Twenty years ago I would have shot that little buck.

Exactly. That is the point I have been making for years with the APR proponents. When you take a small buck you remove one deer from the population for the next season. When you take a doe you take an average of 3 deer out of the population for the next season and at least one of those on average will be a buck.

QDM made sense in the time and place it was implemented but it should never have been promoted in that specific way as a solution across the country.

In Minnesota with its declining habitat, increasing license sales and reduced population we should be limiting hunters to one deer with limited does being harvested except in areas of high density and we should focus on habitat above all else.

[hockeybc69]

Increasing license sales?

[PurpleFloyd]

Compared to the years at the beginning of the chart you provided? Yes.

Do you come up with a different conclusion from the data or are you contending all the damage happened in one year?

Are you

[bigbucks]

I'm thinking some of the license sales drop since 2008 is because they started to cut back on total deer & guys that got their deer by archery or firearms & couldn't shoot another therefore didn't buy that next license. I didn't buy a ml license last year & likely won't this year. It all depends if I still have a tag open I can use around home or not, don't usually have the time to go for longer hunts at that point in season. The "I just want to go hunting" line just doesn't have the same play anymore with the family at that point.

[Getanet]

Compared to the years at the beginning of the chart you provided? Yes.

Do you come up with a different conclusion from the data or are you contending all the damage happened in one year?

Are you

I think the license sales data is a rather moot point, since regardless there are a ton of tags sold compared to the deer population. Either way it's a lot of hunting pressure.

But it is interesting the drop in license sales coincides with what is generally considered the start of the house market collapse/Great Recession. It's possible some guys either didn't buy a tag or didn't buy bonus tags due to financial constraints. Although, sometimes it seemed to be the opposite - guys that were out of work had a lot more time to hunt and ice fish.

[hockeybc69]

PF

You cant compare the data in the beginning of the chart because the license types changed.

See my notes in the spreadsheet. 2008 was the first year of ala carte license purchases.

Prior to that you could buy a single license with the All Season and hunt 3 different weapons. 2008 and through the present, you have to buy 3 license types individually.

So the only apples to apples trends you can make are from 2008 to present, and those numbers clearly have dropped. They are not on the increase as you stated.

[PurpleFloyd]

PF

You cant compare the data in the beginning of the chart because the license types changed.

See my notes in the spreadsheet. 2008 was the first year of ala carte license purchases.

Prior to that you could buy a single license with the All Season and hunt 3 different weapons. 2008 and through the present, you have to buy 3 license types individually.

So the only apples to apples trends you can make are from 2008 to present, and those numbers clearly have dropped. They are not on the increase as you stated.

Do you have the stats on how many people bought the all season prior to 2008?There is nearly a 200k difference from 2000-2008 and it seems unlikely that is purely due to the all season license but if you have definitive data then I will buy it.

[hockeybc69]

2007 there were 76,385 All Season licenses sold.

That should be the data you need to jump on board.

[theharvester]

I thinl they need to go back to hunting one zone way to much pressure in zone and the after that all the nuts drive to zone 1 they always can find a buck tag upthere to use wau to much pressure in zone one in my opinion

[Red Miller]

Well a pretty serious chunk of Zone 1 is bucks only now. And most of the rest is lottery.

[PurpleFloyd]

2007 there were 76,385 All Season licenses sold.

That should be the data you need to jump on board.

Not quite . How many bought 3 licenses in 2009?

[skee0025]

Having a population, and having a population that can withstand our hunter pressure are not asking the same question. The populations of Alberta, Ontario, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan could not withstand our hunting pressure and maintain a 'huntable' population. Just like much of MN.

And what does having a population that could withstand our hunting pressure have to do with whitetail deers range? Their range extends far beyond our boarders. Being able to maintain a huntable population has absolutley nothing to do with a species range.

[Jameson]

2007 there were 76,385 All Season licenses sold.

So, in 2008 in numbers, that would equal about 150,000. And if 150,000 is added to the totals from 2003 (the year the slaughter really got going) to 2007 it gives a trend - downward.

Why 150,000? The all-season was good for archery, firearms, and muzzy and cost like $75. Many hunters only hunted two of the seasons and would only buy 2 licenses for $50 in 2008. Really the average might be closer to 2.5 (licenses bought in 2008 per hunter who bought an all-season license in 2007), but for simplicity, adding 150,000 gets us close.

[Jameson]

...Being able to maintain a huntable population has absolutley nothing to do with a species range.

I was replying to a comment that mentioned "sustainable population" not species range. Are we defining that as a deer population that can withstand the hunting pressure in MN? Or what? A deer population that can withstand the hunting pressure of a Canadian province that is much lower? No doubt we are in the whitetail's species range, but in this part of it's range is it sustainable to hunt them like we do? And to sustain more than just the species, but a to sustain a productive hunt thus a sustainable population. (hint, maybe not everyone should get a license everyyear.)

[hockeybc69]

I think I agree with you Jameson....

Or does PF agree with you?

Or do we both agree with you?