APR 2013?

[Getanet]

Success rates would be way better if we had more bucks, look no further than our neighbor to the south.

You mean the one without APR?

Now the problem is we don't have enough bucks? The pro-APR folks never said we're not shooting enough bucks, just not enough mature ones.

[tfran123]

Imperfect science, wanna talk party hunting and a firearms season at the peak of the rut?

BTW: not enough bucks has always been the problem, older than 1.5 specifically.

[SmellEsox]

Scott, I don't remember anyone saying anti-APR people are less of hunters. In fact, quite the opposite. We are told big bucks are there we just aren't good enough or hunting hard enough to shoot one. Funny how a state border makes a buck much smarter. Cause you can sure see them and hunt them in other states. In your mind it is all about choice. Anti-APR guys can choose to shoot whatever they want under current regs. APR advocates don't have the choice to shoot or hunt what they want due to excessive yearling buck harvest. There has to be some middle ground somewhere and voluntary restraint isn't working.

[mntatonka]

Imperfect science, wanna talk party hunting and a firearms season at the peak of the rut?

BTW: not enough bucks has always been the problem, older than 1.5 specifically.

Now it's the party hunting argument too? Most states you can already harvest multiple bucks. In Minnesota, it's been 1 buck per hunter per year. What difference does it make if one guy in a group shoots 3, or 3 guys in a group each shoot 1? Same bucks are dead either way.

[Scott K]

Scott, I don't remember anyone saying anti-APR people are less of hunters. In fact, quite the opposite. We are told big bucks are there we just aren't good enough or hunting hard enough to shoot one. Funny how a state border makes a buck much smarter. Cause you can sure see them and hunt them in other states. In your mind it is all about choice. Anti-APR guys can choose to shoot whatever they want under current regs. APR advocates don't have the choice to shoot or hunt what they want due to excessive yearling buck harvest. There has to be some middle ground somewhere and voluntary restraint isn't working.

So you are saying if your neighbor came over and bragged to you his party of 6 just filled out all their tags, and they got 2 spike bucks, 2 forkhorns, and 2 basket 6 pointers, you wouldnt think anything bad of them?

[tfran123]

I'll type realllly slow so you can follow:

Why is our age class on bucks in MN really skewed toward younger animals? Hunting pressure. We can help the cause many different ways but adversely impacting things now are:

Firearms opener on the rut

Cross tagging/party hunting

No age restriction on bucks/APR (sans z3)

Without doing anything about any of the above we've got an imbalanced buck herd. Still imperfect and a buck lottery could be another mechanism.

But don't give me the 3 dead buck scenario and pretend you don't get it. Lets open up your mind, 2 groups of 10 guys hunting with the goal of harvesting 10 bucks. One group has to fill their own tags and the other group says let's shoot till we got 10 even though one guy might shoot multiple bucks. Which group shoots more bucks? If that's too hard for ya then I can't likely help you.

[Getanet]

APR advocates don't have the choice to shoot or hunt what they want due to excessive yearling buck harvest.

You're confusing choice with opportunity. APR is the only regulation that removes anyone's choice.

[SmellEsox]

I wouldn't like what they shot, but I wouldn't think they were bad or less of a hunter than I was. It happens around me all the time in fact. I just get frustrated that I still have to spend $700+ to go to Iowa to have good public land hunting when I know the potential to have good hunting exists right here in my backyard. But under current regs and population goals, it'll never happen.

[SmellEsox]

Agreed Getanet, but what is the difference if I have neither the choice nor the opportunity? Under APR, there is still the opportunity to shoot meat. There will be lots of legal does and bucks to shoot. W/o APR, there is little to no opportunity to shoot a mature buck. Under APR, you might have one year where you'd be limited. After that there'd be plenty of bucks for everyone to shoot, not just APR guys.

[mntatonka]

I'll type realllly slow so you can follow:

Why is our age class on bucks in MN really skewed toward younger animals? Hunting pressure. We can help the cause many different ways but adversely impacting things now are:

Firearms opener on the rut

Cross tagging/party hunting

No age restriction on bucks/APR (sans z3)

Without doing anything about any of the above we've got an imbalanced buck herd. Still imperfect and a buck lottery could be another mechanism.

But don't give me the 3 dead buck scenario and pretend you don't get it. Lets open up your mind, 2 groups of 10 guys hunting with the goal of harvesting 10 bucks. One group has to fill their own tags and the other group says let's shoot till we got 10 even though one guy might shoot multiple bucks. Which group shoots more bucks? If that's too hard for ya then I can't likely help you.

I've been in that scenario. Before APR and the cross-tagging ban our party of 15 guys would shoot an average of 7-10 bucks pear year, usually with one lucky hunter getting multiples. After the rule change, we still shoot an average of 7-10 per year, but there's always 7-10 guys shooting them. The bucks we see are't necessarily any bigger or smaller than they were before APR, but we also don't have a very high percentage of yearling bucks in our hunting area that aren't legal to shoot. Same land, same hunters, different rules, same result.

I should mention we also shoot an average of 15-20 does for those same hunters as well, with hopefully a lot closer to 70 does this year to help with our crop damage.

[Jameson]

You're confusing choice with opportunity. APR is the only regulation that removes anyone's choice.

You choose between your opportunities. If you never have opportunities you don't have choices.

[tfran123]

Bingo. Hard to contemplate for some, just turn the other cheek and and ignore reality should be your mode of operation.

[tfran123]

Disagree, been there done that for years in a party of 9, we generated much larger numbers of bucks via party hunting as it wasn't even close. Our best hunters would usually fill the other (not as serious) hunters tags.

Funny, we quit shooting small bucks and now everyone is happier with the result. Yes, I know why complain? Because we are lucky to be surrounded by folks with a similar mindset, most people are not that fortunate.

[PurpleFloyd]

Obviously it's impossible to pinpoint the exact figure. But below are the hunter success rates for a legal buck in 2011 and 2009. Do any of the numbers seem so high that we're decimating the buck population to the point laws should be enacted limit opportunity for any particular group of hunters? These success rates look relatively modest to me, which would indicate there are plenty of bucks - across a range of age ranges - across the state:

2011

Zone 1 = 17.3%

Zone 2 = 16.8%

Zone 3A = 16.9%

Zone 3B = 6.5%

Muzzleloader = 4.0%

Archery = 6.8%

2009

Zone 1 = 19.7%

Zone 2 = 18.7%

Zone 3A =25%

Zone 3B = 10.9%

Muzzleloader = 4.5%

Archery = 7.7%

Actually your data can be used to show that there was a 2% reduction in buck harvest in Z1 from 2009 to 2011 even without regulation so there should already be more mature bucks roaming the area without any laws dictating that it happens. Similar results were shown in zone 2. Now, if we are taking fewer and fewer bucks already then there seems to be no need for regulation because there will be more older mature deer to harvest as it is.

[PurpleFloyd]

You choose between your opportunities. If you never have opportunities you don't have choices.

Never? doesn't that seem like a stretch? Nobody ever stopped anyone in our party from taking a big buck and we still get them. Heck, I shot a fine mature buck last year.

[tfran123]

Actually your data can be used to show that there was a 2% reduction in buck harvest in Z1 from 2009 to 2011 even without regulation so there should already be more mature bucks roaming the area without any laws dictating that it happens. Similar results were shown in zone 2. Now, if we are taking fewer and fewer bucks already then there seems to be no need for regulation because there will be more older mature deer to harvest as it is.

Wow 2%, you are on a roll tonight. Are you confident population counts were static? What if I told you they were down by 9% during that 2 year period? Now we have fewer bucks by your own bad logic.

Wow.

[boXCar JiggY]

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[Wanderer]

Man, you guys have been busy since I last posted in this thread!

I don’t have a better proposal because I don’t think it's necessary. I fall in the camp that prefers to let the individual choose what is and isn’t acceptable to shoot.

If you think about the core of that logic, why have any game laws at all? I think we'll call that a rhetorical question - we all know the answer.

The fact is MN deer regs went relatively unchanged for a LONG time. The biggest change in decades came about when the overall herd population started gettin out of control and new regs to allow additional antlerless harvest were implemented. To a point, that wasn't even enough in some areas so along came the EA season to boot. Now we have a Metro zone. If you would've told someone 20 years ago they'd see 5 deer limits in a significant area of MN they would've thought you were off your rocker.

5 years ago I was saying "These were the Good 'Ol Days" of deer hunting in MN. The DNR has been on a population reduction management plan for this state for some time. That's no secret.

So, how many years were over a half million hunters spoiled by having to put in minimal effort to see deer? Shoot as much as you can was the mantra. Now that the herd is getting under control people are thinking the deer are being taken away from them. We had a period of time in this state where the excess helped open our eyes to the potential of what specific management could accomplish in different areas.

As with other game species, the people who are more involved; the conservation organizations and serious participants wind up promoting changes to improve biological outcomes simply because they care more about the resource than the average passive participant. Now that the sport with the highest number of passive participants is being messed with, it's causing a big stir.

I have no studies to back this up other than 32 years of experience hunting almost every part of MN for deer and hunting from September through December for quite a bit of the last 15 years. But I would find it hard to believe anyone caring enought to keep posting in this thread can deny that recap of the big picture.

What's my point? Game management has to evolve when so many participants are involved. Everyone can't just do what they want. Lax management has led to the closure of the deer season completely in MN before. Times have changed; people have changed.

By the way, the herd is in way better shape now than when I started hunting 32 years ago. We must be doing somethings right.

Now I'm done with this year's annual debate. See ya out there and good luck everyone.

[Bear55]

Actually your data can be used to show that there was a 2% reduction in buck harvest in Z1 from 2009 to 2011 even without regulation so there should already be more mature bucks roaming the area without any laws dictating that it happens. Similar results were shown in zone 2. Now, if we are taking fewer and fewer bucks already then there seems to be no need for regulation because there will be more older mature deer to harvest as it is.

I don't know, the annual harvest went down 2% across two extremely large areas I might think that was less deer in those areas. Not more older bucks running around. Just trying to use logic here.

[MOSSY]

everyone compares Iowa and Wisconsin and say they want deer like they have and they allow cross tagging and DO NOT have apr

[TruthWalleyes]

Go APR!

[tfran123]

that's really neat . . . think I made it to about 1:30, wish I could get that time back.

[nonteepical]

They have a better age structure of bucks, and bigger deer densities. Plenty of venison, no need to shoot the first buck you see.

[tfran123]

They have a better age structure of bucks, and bigger deer densities. Plenty of venison, no need to shoot the first buck you see.

WI has better densities, not sure all of IA does however. But +1 on the age structure comment as that is a major factor, something this state hasn't figured out and a gun hunt in those states that isn't at peak rut.

[mntatonka]

WI has better densities, not sure all of IA does however. But +1 on the age structure comment as that is a major factor, something this state hasn't figured out and a gun hunt in those states that isn't at peak rut.

Do the deer follow the calendar? They always have the peak of the rut the same weeks every single year? Of course not. The peak of the rut can vary from mid-October to nearly mid-December, depending on the year, weather conditions, and lunar phases. So some years minnesota's deer season is in the peak, other years it isn't.