Muzzle-loader shot placement

[cavalierowner]

Just get rid of your power belts and shoot something diffrent.

I was going to do that this year and start shooting a patched roundball (more in keeping with a my traditional ML), but I just wasn't able to spend the time I needed at the range to work up the proper load. I think I'm going to have to bump up the powder charge to 90 gr. Next year for sure!

[Tom7227]

Just a question out of curiosity. Wouldn't a bullet that didn't exit cause the maximum trauma and be better than one that went through the animal? If it stays inside then you know that everything the bullet had did the maximum damage in the animal. It may be more difficult to track the animal without blood coming out the exit wound.

Isn't a spine shot a bit more risky than a shot to the vitals? Smaller target for sure. If you were going to try it what would be your maximum range?

[cavalierowner]

Just a question out of curiosity. Wouldn't a bullet that didn't exit cause the maximum trauma and be better than one that went through the animal? If it stays inside then you know that everything the bullet had did the maximum damage in the animal. It may be more difficult to track the animal without blood coming out the exit wound.

Isn't a spine shot a bit more risky than a shot to the vitals? Smaller target for sure. If you were going to try it what would be your maximum range?

That's always been my theory too, ideally the bullet should stay in the animal for maximum effect whether it blows apart or not. The reason I was going for a spine shot was that the deer was in heavy brush and the only part of the deer I could see was the very middle. So I decided to go for the spine shot rather than taking a chance of hitting in the gut. Back probably 40 years ago I gut-shot a deer; I don't EVER want to do that again!

[swamptiger]

I've had problems with penetration in the tests I've done shooting patched round balls into a block of wood. These were lighter weight balls - I think about 200 grains. Round balls also stabilize better in a slow twist barrel. In those tests, the bullet that performed the best was the heavy Powerbelt in the Aerotip, so that leaves me wondering if the reports of bullet fragmentation in the Powerbelt are in the hollowpoint configuration?

Other bullets I tested were the Great Plains Buffalo bullet in a heavy weight, and one that was called a "Ball-et", which was basically a round ball in a lead conical configuration (think it was 240 grains), and the T/C Maxi-Hunter. The Maxi-Hunter does a good job, but the charge seems to be limited to about 100 grains in a faster twist barrel.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

It may be more difficult to track the animal without blood coming out the exit wound.

That's the dilemna. My preference is for a good hit to the vitals, and an exit hole, if possible.

[CANOPY SAM]

In my thinking, a spine shot (on a mature doe) would be aimed just slightly high center in the neck, preferably near where the head rests near the junction to the spine. It would seem reasonable that a solid hit a couple inches high or low in this area would do profound and lethal damage either way.

On a large buck I would more likely aim just ahead of, and at the top of the scapula. The spine is wide here with a broadside shot, and again, I think anything inside a 6 inch circle in this region would hit bone, and drop the animal in it's tracks.

As many of you have probably seen, a good spine shot is devastating. My first bow kill on a large doe was a straight down spine shot. Before I get eviscerated for taking this shot please keep in mind I was young, pretty green with bow hunting, and didn't know much better. I had no one teaching me how to hunt. Needless to say, hit directly between the front shoulder blades she dropped in her tracks. Stiff and dead.

I've intentionally, and accidentally, spined other deer with the same results. The shock to the spinal column is immediate. I doubt very much the animal even feels any pain. Likely similar to a head shot, which I won't take simply because it's a rather unpleasant sight for the kids, and it's a lower percentage shot beyond 40-50 yards.

If I were truly aiming to spine a mature deer, Tom, I wouldn't likely try the shot much further out, with a muzzle-loader, than 50-60 yards. But the majority of deer I've taken with my smokepole have been within that range.

The last few posts talking about higher shots vs. lower shots also has me thinking. The "pleural cavity" or bag that surrounds the lungs and heart region of the deer is actually pretty much shrink wrapped to the forward area of the rib cage of the deer. Hence, if the animal is shot "high" in the pleural cavity, thru both lungs, yet it remains on it's feet, it would stand to reason that the blood filling the pleural cavity would take a while to fill to the level of the hole and start spilling out.

If the animal were hit lower in the pleural cavity it is likely that one would see evidence of blood flow out of an entry or exit hole much more quickly then if it were hit higher up. Does that make sense?

Perhaps I hit that big doe too high up? I was basically sitting in a snow bank, in the bottom of a small, shallow depression, nestled back in a stand of red willows. In retrospect, I may have actually been aiming slightly "up" at the deer. Not much, but perhaps enough to have hit the deer just a little too high.

I'm also curious about shooting a "ball" out the end of a rifled muzzle-loader. Wouldn't one give up a lot of accuracy beyond 60-70 yards?

[fr0sty]

Yes, but in some areas the lack of blood trail is a problem. For me, I hunt a very thick swamp. Once a deer buggers off, you have 0 chance of seeing it. I first started hunting there with a smooth bore 12 gauge. The first two deer I shot had nice holes and a great blood trails to follow. The same was true for the deer I shot with my .50 cal ml.

When I switched to a .270 I had deer leave zero blood trail. The round fully stayed in the deer and the shot was deadly but I had no blood trail to follow. I was luckily able to recover my deer, but the lack of blood trail worried me.

I recently switched from the standard blue box federal 130 gr bullets to all copper barnes tsx bullets. I also changed from shooting heart lung to going for a scapula shot. So far, that has worked well. The scapula shot dropped the deer right there. My daughter also shot a deer through the heart lung area and had a good blood trail to follow.

I like to have a blood trail and that is why I changed to a bullet that would pass through and give that blood trail.

[swamptiger]

Nothing will put an animal down faster than a good hit to the spine, but if you're off a little, you are more likely to get a blood trail with a hit in the vitals.

The patched round balls are intended to be used in the more traditional slow twist barrels with a lighter charge. I highly doubt you would see any accuracy out of a modern fast twist inline with a 150 gr. powder charge.

[cavalierowner]

I'm also curious about shooting a "ball" out the end of a rifled muzzle-loader. Wouldn't one give up a lot of accuracy beyond 60-70 yards?

I was just starting to get into shooting a PRB this summer, so I'll let you know. But according to the folks on a traditional ML only forum, I should be able to get good groups out to 100 yards...we shall see, what with my old eyes. At 50 yards I can consistently hold about a 3" group with a PRB, so that's good for me for we hunt. Where we hunt it's virtually impossible to get a shot beyond about 75 yards. This fall I did shoot a PRB a few times at 100 yards, but I had about 6" of drop compared to 50 yards. So next summer I am going to kick my powder up to 90 gr (from 80) and see how that affects POI at both 50 and 100 yards. I am determined to get to the point where I am comfortable hunting with a PRB and dump the Powerbelt.

BTW, my traditional ML has a 1:48 twist. Not ideal for a PRB, but a compromise as I understand it.

[flipper]

I make my own 495 grainers. So far they have planted them real good.

[CANOPY SAM]

I once attempted a spine shot on a nice buck bounding thru a sunflower field. I timed his jumps as he turned and started running straight away.

Just before crossing a small rise, and disappearing out of sight, I touched off a shot as he dove down preparing for his next bound up. This was designed with the intent that he would jump up into the bullet with his next leap, and in theory I would hit him square in the back of the neck (as all I could ever see was his head and neck while running). He never flinched or showed any sign of a hit, but I felt it necessary to minimally check the area before saying he wasn't hit.

When I came to the spot where I'd last seen him there was blood splashed everywhere...literally as though someone had thrown it around from a paint can. I figured I'd follow this blood trail, which a blind man could follow, only a few yards further, and find him piled up in the flowers.

He ended up running nearly a mile and a half, spraying blood everywhere all the while. It was absolutely amazing to think this animal was losing this much blood, and he was still on his feet!

We found him in a rock pile, completely bled out. I'd missed my shot. He was hit just slightly to the right of the spine in the back of the neck, but the bullet had torn thru his carotid artery and jugular vein, exiting the front of his neck below his chin. He was spewing blood out the front of his neck with every beat of his heart....for over a mile!

This experience taught me that even a shot to the neck slightly off the spine will result in catastrophic trauma to the animal. But I'd still really prefer to drop an animal in it's tracks whenever possible.

Deer muscle, contrary to what some people will say, is really no different than any other large muscled animal. The long muscle fiber is made of the same stuff, and runs on the same electrolytes, and nutrients our muscles do. When a deer runs a long distance before, or after being shot, and expires, the muscle, and blood within the muscle, is loaded with lactic acid. This is the stuff that settles in your muscles after working out or running, and when you don't warm down, or stretch out post work-out you get really stiff and sore.

If a deer expires with it's muscles full of lactic acid, you'll end up with really tough, gamey venison, unless you hang the animal for the prescribed amount of time under just the right conditions. Dropping an animal in it's tracks, completely unaware of your presence, and in no state of alarm what-so-ever, is ideal for the best quality venison you can get. But that's another topic.

[swamptiger]

Those look quite a bit like the Maxi-Hunters.

What caliber are they, what charge do you use, and what twist is your barrel?

[fr0sty]

Good point

If a deer expires with it's muscles full of lactic acid, you'll end up with really tough, gamey venison, unless you hang the animal for the prescribed amount of time under just the right conditions. Dropping an animal in it's tracks, completely unaware of your presence, and in no state of alarm what-so-ever, is ideal for the best quality venison you can get. But that's another topic.

[flipper]

Those look quite a bit like the Maxi-Hunters.

What caliber are they, what charge do you use, and what twist is your barrel?

They have a lot more bearing surface than the maxihunter plus they have a flat meplate which is deadly in a pure lead conical.

These are sized to .504 and shot out of a White Muzzleloader with a .504 bore and a 1 in 24 twist. I have a few of these rifles and I use whatever charge is most accurate in the rifle I am using. Usually that will be something like 70 to 80 grains of Goex.

Here is a pic of one of the Whites.

[swamptiger]

Looks similar to my T/C Thunderhawk.

What mold are you using?

[flipper]

It is a custom mold made by Dan at Mountain Molds.

[Musky Buck]

Flipper why such a load when you don't shoot big bucks ?

[swamptiger]

Quote:

It is a custom mold made by Dan at Mountain Molds.

Ok - didn't think I had seen it before.

I've looked at the Lyman molds in the past...maybe give it a try sometime...

[flipper]

Flipper why such a load when you don't shoot big bucks ?

I never understood the concept of overkill. I don't like tracking and I don't like not retrieving game.

[CANOPY SAM]

AHA! Exactly why I posted this question. I don't mind tracking at all, but I really don't like losing an animal.

I've shot numerous deer with a .300 Weatherby Mag! Talk about overkill! One well placed shot and you don't even have to field dress them.

[countyline]

I

He ended up running nearly a mile and a half, spraying blood everywhere all the while. It was absolutely amazing to think this animal was losing this much blood, and he was still on his feet!

Sure.

[Whoaru99]

Just a question out of curiosity. Wouldn't a bullet that didn't exit cause the maximum trauma and be better than one that went through the animal?

No, not necessarily.

One could say a bullet that didn't exit expended all possible energy into the animal but that doesn't necessarily equate to maximum internal damage/trauma.

For example, blasting a big, expanding bullet completely though the animal is likely, IMO, to result in faster death than a non-expanding bullet that lodges just under the far side hide, shot placement being equal.

Not only would the pass though cause two holes to leak from, the expanding bullet would almost certainly cause much more damaging wound channel and shock.

I think even if one assumed equal shot placement and equal bullet expansion, a pass through would be better for no other reason than twice the potential to leave a blood trail.

[Archerysniper]

Try a 250 grain hornady Sts with 150 grains of 777. Sight it in at 3" at 50 and you will be no more then 3" high or low from zero to 200 yards from all my shooting.

[Boar]

range time range time range time, arch can u get those horneys at any pro shop? really got my curiosty peaked with those.

[fishattacker]

If you can't find the hornadys you can get T/C shockwaves. Hornady sells the SST bullets to T/C with a different colored tip. T/C then labels them shockwave.