Gun Safes ????

[GRH]

We are just starting to look at safes. Wow what a price difference. Any advice or thoughts about safes and what to look for.

[jmd1]

i have a stack on type not one of the sheet metal ones but one that is built for 16 guns. Just depends on $$$ how many guns you want to store and what features you are looking for. I actually took a piece of all thread ran it though the wall behind the safe which is in a closet and put a plate on the other side. It is too in the closet opposite of the safe. Make em work as hard as they have to if they want it. Good luck.

[LightningBG]

How big are you looking?

Any budget you have to stick within?

Any other security measures installed in the house (sec system)?

How valuable is its contents going to be? (going to keep your guns in it and want to protect from the common house thief, or are you going to be storing the hope diamond in this thing?)

I have 2 Fichet-Bauche safes. They are about the size of a refrigerator and weigh about 4000 lbs each and have a price tag with similar numbers (used). But I wouldn't go to that extreme.

[Tom7227]

Well you trying to keep a 2 year old away from the guns or to protect them for real against theft and at least possibly a fire? A tin wall rig will keep the guns secure for a while and at least keep them organized. If you get into a fireproof then the only issue really is how many guns you need to store - and the answer is always at least 5 more guns than you think.

Issues like where can you get the thing should be considered. Walk in basement or hire some guys with size 18 necks and size 3 heads for #250 to bring it down some stairs. You feel a need for fast access via an electronic lock or can to turn a dial when you need to get one out?

One saving thing that many probably don't know is that you can write it off if you keep some financial records inside.

[skyhawk]

Our local appliance store has a few safes in stock)owner is a gun nut. The neat thing is that it comes in pieces so you are able to carry it without straining anything.

If interested, let me know and I will get more info

[Jarrod32]

Yep...what everyone has said is good advice. And when you see a safe rated for a particular number of guns, just assume that a gun with a scope counts as two guns as far as taking up space.

The big questions (most have been asked earlier):

Do you want a locking cabinet, or do you want a fire proof safe? (this is the biggest difference in money). If you get a fire-proof safe, you can then also find one that will allow for shelves in part of it for other things you want to keep safe (birth certificates, vehicle titles, insurance policies, etc.).

Where will it go in your house? A large, 64-gun fire-proof safe can weigh upwards of 750 pounds. You are not likely to just slide that into your living room (and how much weight can your floor take?).

Combination or electronic lock? Probably not the biggest concern, but this is about a $100 question...

[GRH]

I want a safe for fire and theft. Probably go with a dial, less chance of failure. Looked at some cannon, winchester, cabelas, superior safes and a few others. Price ranges from 550-1900. most have what looks to be thinner metal on the doors where the superior has a thicker multi-plate door. Is that a big deal?

[CJH]

I maybe wrong, but if you have any half way decent large safe, a thief isn't going to bother trying to break into it unless you have something super valuable in it. My

[jmd1]

For clarification, my stack on is a fireproof, dial type with concrete in the walls. It was everything for 2 of us and a dolly to put in place. It is also a 16 gun safe.

[not_nuf_time]

GRH, check the guy in Rogers behind the strip mall to the south of the movie theater. I just bought one there bout a month ago, love it, he has multiple sizes for multiple dollars. Solid doors and bolts. He'll show you the difference in quality.

[311Hemi]

Been going through the same thing and finally just bought one on black Friday. To answer your question, yes there is a big difference from a $400 safe to a $2000 safe. Amount of actual fire protection varies a lot, water protection (if in basement), thickness of steel (8, 10, 12 guage), type of lock, number of bolts, anti pry mechanisms...ect...ect. If you have something(s) of a lot of value I would spend the money on good safe, and buy the next size bigger than you need. There is not much of a comparison between a $400 stack-on vs a $2000 Champion, Liberty, Superior. The type of sheet rock and amount of it will determine how fireproof a safe is. Some use different styles of sheet rock that don't break down in high temps. Usually the heavier the safe the more fire protection/sheet rock it has. If you really want a nice safe I would go see someone that specializes in them. I know there is a place in Brooklyn Center.

I ended up buying a stack-on elite for $400 (originally $700)....but it is not what I wanted to buy (but all I could afford right now). It is a good step up from the metal cabinets (which is what I was considering), but does not offer the security of a high prices safe. My main objective right now is keeping the guns away from children and in an environment that I can control humidity and this will do that. I do not have many valuable to lock up and am only trying to protect against the smash and grab quick break in. I will be putting another fireproof box inside if for documents/hard drive/ect as it only has a 30 min fire rating a 1400* and specifically states that the safe is not for storage of CD's/electronics. I think this is really telling of what I actually bought and why I am putting another small firesafe in this safe.

Go to google and do a search for Gun Safe Buyer Guide and click on the first link (6mmbr web site). There is some good info there. Also search youtube for breaking into a safe. You would be surprised how easily a lot of safes are to access.

Whatever you do, make sure you bolt it to the floor and possibly wall as well.

[LightningBG]

most have what looks to be thinner metal on the doors where the superior has a thicker multi-plate door. Is that a big deal?

All depends on how much thinner. Like someone else said, a common thief isn't going to spend much time on a decent gun safe. There are too many other soft targets out there.

If it were me, I'd get something under $1000, over 500lbs,

In my brief searching, I would lean towards a Liberty Timber Ridge Series Gun Safe which is a line made for Gander Mountain. The 30 gun model runs, $999 with the mechanical lock. Weighs in at about 650 lbs. What sucks is that it has to be shipped from liberty, which will run about $300.

The walls and door on mine are about 4.5-5 inches thick. door alone weighs almost 800 lbs. I dont have mine bolted down at all. I dont think that should be a problem. Especially since you would need a F450 SD or larger just to haul it away and they are not anywhere close to a door. You should have seen the guys installing it....I do not envy them. God only knows what would happen in a fire, I have a feeling we'd be hiring a crane to get them out of the basement.

[311Hemi]

The walls and door on mine are about 4.5-5 inches thick. door alone weighs almost 800 lbs. I dont have mine bolted down at all. I dont think that should be a problem. Especially since you would need a F450 SD or larger just to haul it away and they are not anywhere close to a door. You should have seen the guys installing it....I do not envy them. God only knows what would happen in a fire, I have a feeling we'd be hiring a crane to get them out of the basement.

I don't think I would worry about bolting down a 4000 lbs safe either!!

Any of the lighter ones I would, mainly because it's easier to access them once they have been layed down with the door up.

A few good vids:

[fivebucks]

Regarding the fire rating, I read something somewhere that said the fire rating is not what it's cracked up to be. I believe they are rated for 1 - 2 hours or so at a certain temp. The article said they can handle that but what are the chances of getting a safe out of the basement in a house fire within 2 hours? Maybe you get it out the next couple of days but if a total house fire the safe was subjected to high heat much longer than any fire proof safe is rated for. It may be just a conspiracy theory and I am not sure where or when I read it. Might just be a Cliff Claven tidbit

[MNice]

Regarding the fire rating, I read something somewhere that said the fire rating is not what it's cracked up to be. I believe they are rated for 1 - 2 hours or so at a certain temp. The article said they can handle that but what are the chances of getting a safe out of the basement in a house fire within 2 hours? Maybe you get it out the next couple of days but if a total house fire the safe was subjected to high heat much longer than any fire proof safe is rated for. It may be just a conspiracy theory and I am not sure where or when I read it. Might just be a Cliff Claven tidbit

Exactly, my Niece & nephew lost their house last Feb., all guns in fire safe were toast. They live in a rural area, so all water had to be trucked in, FD was there for 6 hours. Safe still worked though. They rebuilt and had good insurance, so all is well.

[311Hemi]

I think the risk is going to be higher in rural areas due to response times for FD's and that needs to be taken into consideration. In Urban areas I would think you have a good chance of not having a total loss on a house. They have ratings on them for a reason, I don't think there is any conspiracy here, although some safes may have rating that appear higher than they are due to how they are tested.

Spending more does get you better fire protection but you need to consider where the safe will be located and what you are protecting. Liberty has two lines of safes that are rated at 1200* for 2.5 hours....but they are $3000+. I know where my safe is and where my house (in the metro) is I am fairly confident that a house/garage fire would not last too long.

BTW, many of the cheap safes are rated to 1200-1400* for 30 min.....not 1-2 hours. This is not much protection. 60-90 min ratings up the price of the safes.

Quote:

Fire Protection

Recommendation: Safe UL Rated 350?F for 1 hour or better, with fire cladding on all sides.

Over 380,000 residential fires occur annually. Residential fires account for $4.4 billion of property loss each year. So, getting a fire-resistant safe is a good idea. No question about that--but understanding how much protection you're really buying is the challenge.

Fire protection in gun safes is a controversial topic. Many claims are made about the effectiveness of various forms of "fire-lining" or "fire-cladding." Ratings suggesting that a safe will stay below a specified temperature for a given length of time may be unrealistic. However, as a general rule, fire-proofing is a good thing, and a safe that incorporates effective fire/heat protection is worth the extra cost.

Chris Luchini, co-author of the Rec.Gun's guide to Gun Safes, told us: "I live in the Los Alamos area. A few years ago we had a massive fire that destroyed many homes. I had the chance to inspect a number of safes in homes that experienced 'total burn-downs', where the building was reduced to a pile of ashes. I noticed three things. First, in nearly all the safes without any fire-proofing, everything was lost. Second, in some safes where there was no structural reinforcing of the sheet-rock insulation, things were lost in the top half of the safe. Third, I saw some safes that had thick, reinforced fire lining, and these came out pretty good, with most of the contents intact. I also saw a fire-lined safe that failed because the door sprung open when a heavy beam fell on it."

Chris adds: "Realistically, fire is probably more of a danger to your guns than theft. Spend the extra money and get the fireproofing in any safe you buy, or add it yourself later. Many safe manufacturers use common sheet-rock as fire-lining. This is not the best solution, because when heated, standard sheet-rock will crumble. There is a sheet-rock that has fiberglass embedded in it. These fibers will maintain the physical strength of the panel as it is heated. Also, keep in mind that the top of the safe is the part that [takes] the brunt of the heat in a fire. Store everything as low as possible in your safe."

The two most commonly-used insulators in gun safes are sheet-rock (gypsum board), and ceramic wool blankets. Ceramic wool has a much higher insulation rating than sheet-rock. However, when sandwiched between steel plates, sheet-rock can be quite effective. As the safe heats up, water molecules contained in the sheet-rock vaporize and form steam. This conversion of water to steam absorbs heat energy. It also serves to pressurize the safe, sealing it off front heat and flames. The problem with sheet-rock is that, after it releases its moisture, it tends to disintegrate, and migrate to the bottom of the safe, leaving hot spots at the top. Ft. Knox is one of the safe-makers that employs an extra assembly stage to secure the sheetrock within the safe walls. Ft. Knox bar-tacks the sheet-rock panels in a matrix so the insulating material stays in place.

Should You Believe Safe Makers' Fire Ratings?

This is a difficult question to answer. Some claimed ratings are unsupported by actual testing. Some companies, such as Cannon and SentrySafe, use Intertek ETL to test their safes. Other companies, such as AmSec and FireKing, employ Underwriters Laboratories to test their safes. At right is a graphic showing various UL rating levels. Liberty Safe, whose safes are tested by Omega Point Laboratories, notes: "An assumption many people make is that they can compare home security safe fire ratings much like they compare the gas mileage ratings on cars. While there is one test method for estimating fuel economy, there is no single fire test or rating standard for home security safes. Safe manufacturers' fire test methods, standards and facilities vary so widely that a direct comparison is meaningless. Actual house fires get hot real fast1200?F in ten minutes or less. Yet some manufacturers use fire tests where the heat builds to over 1200?F over a much longer time framewell beyond the time it takes a typical house fire to reach 1200?F. The result is a longer fire protection time claim, but it provides an unrealistic expectation of actual fire resistance. In an Omega Point fire test the furnace temperature builds to 1200?F, typical home fire intensity, in ten minutes and is maintained there, exposing the safe to the full heat and intensity of a simulated home fire during the test. The test is over when one of the nine computer monitored temperature probes inside the safe rises 275?F above the ambient temperature--paper chars at 402? F. The results are a rating that is a real measure of a safe's fire endurance under conditions simulating a house fire, not just a factory test."

[LightningBG]

Regarding fire ratings, there are some good ways to mitigate the effects of a house fire. Of course none of them are perfect, but they might give the safe a better chance of protecting the contents.

Safe placement and exterior insulation are probably the easiest things to accomplish.

Placement: An exterior wall, in a corner, on a main level or basement are the best. Also if its in a closet on an exterior wall, that will help. If its against an exterior wall, it will be exposed to less heat from the center of the house, and will be more likely to be put out sooner than the interior. In a closet is good because it provide extra layers of sheetrock that will have to be penetrated before getting to the safe. Basement is good because of all the concrete, but beware, the basement of a house will turn into a swimming pool once the Fire Dept gets there, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to have it up off the floor on cinder blocks or something. upper floor isn't the greatest idea, mostly because fire burns upwards, and we wouldn't want it falling through the floor onto a firefighter.

Exterior insulation is most easily accomplished with multiple layers of sheetrock lining the outside of the safe. Type X sheetrock is best because it will retain its structural integrity even after the moisture is boiled out of it. Regular sheetrock is better than nothing, but will turn to chalk and disintegrate as soon as the fire has boiled out all the moisture. 4 layer of 5/8 sheetrock will provide a lot of protection, make sure to have the seams offset where possible. Doors are tricky to cover, not sure of the best solution besides building a small closet with a metal door and heavily sheetrocking the inside walls, then placing the safe inside.

[TroutYammer]

Buy bigger than you think you really need or really think it through before buying. I have a 25-long gun safe that is toally full with 15-long guns. If you have scopes or odd shaped guns think it through where you will put each gun. Unless you have 25-uniformly straight (like a pump) long guns they will never fit in a safe that is marketed for 25-guns.

[jmd1]

i just looked my stack on up, while it is heavy, it is not 4k either. one reason i mounted it through the wall is that it is on carpet and had to put a piece of 5/4th's plywood under it to make it stable. I have a teenager so falling over is not a problem, my concern would be if i had smaller kids and for some unknown reason (kids) they were to pull or try and climb on it that it is secure enough that it would not fall over. I agree with the thought that a 20 gun safe won't hold 20 guns. i have several bolt action and a muzzleloader bolt that throws off the angles. I use humidity control device even tho it is only 3% here most of the time.