Wolf Delisting

[Bear55]

Based on my own anectdotal evidence, this is what we are seeing in areas of the state. The wolf population is remaining the same (or growing) and the deer population is declining. Again, in my opinion, this is at least in part because the wolves continue to kill and eat the same number of deer whether there are 10 deer per sq. mile or 5 deer per sq. mile, and deer recruitment cannot replenish the the herd size. I have seen a drastic increase in the number of wolves sighted and the amount of wolf sign over the past 10 years. In the same time frame, I have seen a corresponding decline in the number of deer - a number that is well below the carrying capacity of the land.

I guess I have no issue with sustaining a population of wolves, but at the same time, I see no benefit in allowing the wolf populations to grow unchecked. Wolves are of little benefit to mankind, whereas deer, elk, moose, etc. are. They are a food source, and now a source of sport. If humans are able to keep the population of these ungulates in check without the wolves, I see growing wolf populations as a nuisance.

I partially agree with this and I do think the wolves have had an impact on the northern deer herd the past few years. However the wolves population isn't going to keep growing while the deer population declines forever. With far less deer than we were seeing 5 to 10 years ago there just won't be enough food for the wolves to sustain or grow their population and their numbers will fall back a little. I still believe there will be a strong huntable population of wolves just maybe not as large a population as we have seen in recent years.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I partially agree with this and I do think the wolves have had an impact on the northern deer herd the past few years. However the wolves population isn't going to keep growing while the deer population declines forever. With far less deer than we were seeing 5 to 10 years ago there just won't be enough food for the wolves to sustain or grow their population and their numbers will fall back a little. I still believe there will be a strong huntable population of wolves just maybe not as large a population as we have seen in recent years.

I guess I maybe should have been clearer or expounded on my position. Clearly, there will be environmental constraints on any species, the wolf and the deer are not immune. Essentially, there will become a tipping point where the wolf numbers will begin to decline as the deer herd cannot support the growing wolf packs. However, with wolves, you will begin to see pack dispersement that you typically won't see in whitetail deer herds. Wolves will, to an extent that the habitat is suitable, keep expanding their territory to find more plentiful hunting as their numbers continue to grow. I think we are also seeing this in the past few years, with more and more wolf sightings and issues showing up in more southern regions than we have been used to seeing (central MN).

Yet, the point I was trying to make remains the same (at least I think). Do we want wolves to regulate the deer populations, or do we want humans to do so? Do we want larger wolf numbers, or larger deer numbers? I firmly believe that the deer numbers are more beneficial to society than the wolf. Just my opinion.

[Musky Buck]

The delisting seems logical and I'm sure numbers will be monitored closely and regulated by population estimates therefore making both sides happier I would hope.

[caseymcq]

I agree that knee jerk reactions shouldn't rule the day. However, if we are using sound science in evaluating the impact of wolves on the state's deer population, you have to begin by using sound reasoning. The portion that I have highlighted in bold in your example drastically skews the estimated impact wolves have on the state's deer herd....

[matchset]

it said that a SINGLE wolf will kill 1.4-2.2 elk per 30 days.

"for sake of comparison"

"i estimate that an elk is roughly double the size of a whitetail deer in minnesota"

thus, using the same numbers....

and since the wolf population in Minnesota is estimated at 2,921 animals...

rough estimates could conclude that wolves kill upwards of 98,145-154,228 whitetail deer

i'm no scientist; but i am a Biology student who likes to converse about wildlife.

my post was neither intended to be "knee-jerk", nor outrageous in comparison.

it was simply Conversation.

whether wolves kill 1 or 100,000 deer; we can never be absolutely "scientifically certain" on an exact number. but what i do know (from personal experience) is that the whitetail population is (slim pickin's) in range of the gray wolf

[goblueM]

What seems strange to me is that the DNR estimates the moose population in MN to be around 7,000 animals and the wolf population to be around 3,000. The wolf's range is quite a bit larger than the mooses, therefore the population should be much less dense than that of the moose. Yet, wolf sightings are extremely common, and moose sightings seem to be pretty rare.

I don't know what my point really is, its just an observation I made that makes me think 3,000 animals is on the low side. Then again, I don't spend a lot of time in the core-range of the moose. Either way, I look forward to having a tag for each animal sometime in my future!

wolves roam HUGE amounts of territory on any given day, which is why they are much more likely to be seen by humans. Moose don't move nearly as much, and tend to inhabit areas that folks don't usually frequent

[bigsmallie]

I've had up to four wolves in my backyard area half mile outside of bemidji. There is a huge black one that has been around for four years and have seen him numerous places within 5 miles. I bowhunt hardcore on state land, I know when the wolves move in, the deer move out. I also shed hunt a lot.....and when I find deer that are killed by wolves, typically the guts are gone and the rest is left for the coyotes. When food is plentiful, they pick out the "tasty pieces" and move onto the next. They do prey on the weak, but that means they prey on a big buck that is worn down and trying to recover from the rut. So typically they prey on the fawns, injured, and larger bucks. They need to be controlled like any species. There isn't even a season on coyotes, and they reproduce the same litters. Things have been tied up in the court systems for way too long, and the activists make a living off of donations and charities. Sad

[flyfisher03]

From what I've heard from other sources is the FWS or the judge that issued the injunction is not concerned with Minnesota or Wisconsin or Michigan's wolf management plans. The issue of de-listing comes from a few western states that don't have a wolf management plan besides shoot on site.

[caseymcq]

... i'm no scientist; but i am a Biology student who likes to converse about wildlife.

[Xplorer]

matchset,

I just think that with all the data that we have from studies done here in MN, that using one article about wolf elk kills out west to extrapolate deer kill numbers here isn't good methodology. No [PoorWordUsage] match intended.

"but what i do know (from personal experience) is that the whitetail population is (slim pickin's) in range of the gray wolf"

I do think you need to qualify that a bit, to "some range of the grey wolf". Four of the 18 Intensive harvest area's in the state (177,180,181,182) are in the heart of wolf range. If it was slim pickin's I dont think that they'd allow the taking of 5 deer per person, and since i live in 182 I can tell you that there is no shortage of deer at this time. Could that change? Sure, but I bet it will be more due to man than wolves.

[caseymcq]

... I can tell you that there is no shortage of deer at this time. Could that change? Sure, but I bet it will be more due to man than wolves.

No shortage up the shore either ... I think those management areas along the shore have a bit of a milder winter due to the lake effect. Even the furtherst area up the shore is a managed area (2 deer). 180 has an early antlerless season so a person could take up to 7. There are definitely wolves in those areas... and definitely no shortage of deer. The winters may have a pretty significant impact on the deer, possibly even more so than wolves or hunters.

[matchset]

Xplorer & Caseymcq... i guess i don't believe everything i read from so-called experts.

lol, gotta love the "great migration" of deer this time of year....

[goblueM]

ah, the good old "i'll trust my anecdotal observations, and extrapolate them to all situations, even over those already described by scientific, widely-accepted methods for quantifying ecological issues"

and from a biology student no less

[matchset]

yikes, did i say that? quotes even.... wow!

[cbrooks]

Groups seeks to restore wolves across the U.S.

by Matthew Brown

Associated Press

Billings,Mont.-An environmental group filed notice Tuesday that it intends to sue the federal government to force adoption of a plan to recover gray wolves acros the lower 48 states.

The predators were poisoned and trapped to near extermination in the U.S. in the last century. But they have bounced back in some wilderness areas over the last few decades.

Biologists with the Arizona-based Center for biological Diversity said Tuesday they want to expand that recovery nationwide.

In the notice filed with the Interior Department, the group said it will sue within 60 days if the agency doesn't start crafting a plan to expand wolf ranges. The Endanger Species Act requires the agency to be notified two months before the lawsuits is filed.

Despite making gains in some areas since the species was first listed as endangered in 1974, the gray wolf remains limited to about 5 percent of its historical range. About 6,000 wolves live in the lower 48 states. They are protected from hunting except in Alaska.

Public hunts for wolves have been allowed briefly in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, but were halted after the federal government was rebuffed by the courts in several attempts to take the animal off the endangered list.

Judges have ruled that the government has not proved existing wolf numbers would ensure the population's longterm survival.

[walleye101]

I am sure the name of this environmental advocacy group, Center for Biological Diversity, and reference to their "biologists", are meant to lend credibility to the organization and their position on wolf restoration as a science based initiative.

Their simplistic proposal to restore wolves to their historic geographical range says differently. To propose restoring a population of anything to a certain geographical area that they inhabited 100+ years ago, without considering the changes that have occurred on that landscape over the previous 100 years while they have been absent is absurd,irresponsible and in no way based on sound social or ecological reasoning.

[cbrooks]

IMO This is part of theproblem with the endanger specie list. Once there on its almost impossible to get them removed. Feel bad for the folks who have this wolf problem in there backyard. I do think its a problem if the wolves don't have fear of people.

[caseymcq]

Xplorer & Caseymcq... i guess i don't believe everything i read from so-called experts.

[Steve Foss]

To propose restoring a population of anything to a certain geographical area that they inhabited 100+ years ago, without considering the changes that have occurred on that landscape over the previous 100 years while they have been absent is absurd,irresponsible and in no way based on sound social or ecological reasoning.

[HooknHorns]

Im thinking that if they restore the population, the hunters and residents that have problems will control it themselves without the help of the gov. One question, whens the season open?

[walleye101]

Im thinking that if they restore the population, the hunters and residents that have problems will control it themselves without the help of the gov. One question, whens the season open?

Too bad it is not that simple. Those who take matters into their own hands and "control it themselves" are not really hunters but poachers, and that is a problem for the majority of people who feel some obligation to abide by game and fish laws.

Your question, "whens the season open?" is not going to happen "without the help of government" who has regulatory authority.

[HooknHorns]

I was just stating that if there is an overpopulation and there are problems with close encounters they probally be taken care of with or without the government due to the fact nobody wants a CO to dig for a reason to give them a fine. I realize the dnr has controls over the seasons and I don't think sightings do diddly squat for anything but stories in the news. The problem is going to be with poeple taking in their own hands without filing a complaint. If the dnr has more complaints maybe they will open up a season. I agree that if one is out to just shoot a wolf for other reasons without a season that they are not hunting them but, poaching them.

[child23]

First i am going to start by saying that i have enjoyed reading this thread to this point. In the past couple years have I have started to see wolves way more than i have any time in the past. This past summer we have had wolves in harrasssing our cattle at night on more than four occasions. I have also had many more sightings in the past couple of years than i have had the rest of my lifetime. Sure i live in wolf territory but i belive the poppulation has grown quite considerably over time. With my father being a logger we put many miles on the sleds in the winter off the beaten path. Sure we are getting more into wolf territory but every year we are seeing way more sign of wolves. They are definately expanding there territory from what it used to be. When i was younger it was rare to see a wolf all year. Now it is becoming common to see 5 to 6 a summer. So that makes me belive that there is definately a increase in the population. Therefore I agree with delisting the wolves from the endangered species list and am definately for managing them.

[caseymcq]

... One question, whens the season open?

No sooner than five years after they are delisted in Minnesota under the current State management plan.

[HooknHorns]

I kinda hope they do and keep it for resdents only for a while and Im sure there will be a ton of other regs for the season also. If this makes it easier on the moose population and gives me a better chance of getting drawn for that season im all for that. I would rather have a crack at a good archery bull than a wolve any day.