Joe Mauer and his home run

[Big Dave2]

Things Dave doesn't understand (abridged list):

* Positional scarcity (i.e. it's easy to find a slugging 1B; it's hard to find a slugging catcher) Dave derides Mauer as a "singles and doubles hitter." Atlanta's Brian McCann, probably the second-best hitting catcher in the game, has 17 HR so far this year, yet his slugging % is nearly 30 points lower than Mauer's. HR are nice, but are overrated unless you have a guy who hits HR AND does all the other stuff.

Mauer is hitting over .330. The next best catcher? McCann's .270. There are 13 first baseman hitting over .270 and nine of them are over .290. Mauer's OPS (on base % plus slugging %) of .894 leads the majors at his position by 44 points. There are only three catchers with an OPS over .800. There are 14 first basemen with an OPS over .800. Mauer has TWENTY (20!) more doubles than the catcher with the second most.

Nice try but McCann is only making 5.7 mil this year and won,t make what Maur made this year for 3 more years. Joe will be making 23 mil next year, hard to compare those 2 players.

Do you see where this is going, Dave? Mauer isn't a "nice singles and doubles hitter." He is far and away the dominant hitter at his position. It's not even close. Add in excellent defense and the revenue value he adds to the franchise, and it's pretty easy to argue that he's right there with Pujols as the most valuable player in baseball. Which, y'know, is why he gets paid the way he does.

I'm glad you brought up Pujols. He has done twice as much offensively than Mauer and is a 3 time MVP and finished 2nd three times as well and he is only making 14 mil this year??????????

* Speaking of slugging percentage, Mauer's is almost .500 - nearly 50 points higher than Kubel, who Dave probably thinks of as being more of a "power" guy. As mentioned, his slugging % is much higher than Brian McCann, despite having half the HRs.

Again, please look at the players salaries. They are quite different.

* The position of catcher in general (catchers just don't play 160 games a year. They don't. It's ludicrous to think Mauer is worth less money because he plays the most physically demanding position in the game)

Thats exactly why you don't pay ANY catcher 23 mil/year

It's also worth noting that while Dave is whining about the number of games Mauer plays, Justin Morneau played in FEWER games than Mauer did last year (due to injury) and will play in FEWER games than Mauer this year (unless Mauer goes down). In fact, Mornie will play in fewer than 120 games this year. Yes, Morneau was an ironman for a three year stretch. Why wouldn't he? 1B is the least physically demanding position in the game.

You can't control injuries and Mauer may go through a stretch on injuries someday as well.

The idea that Morneau will be worth more than Mauer in his next contract year is just silly, and the idea that Mauer is grossly overpaid is even sillier.

This post may have been sillier than both!

[PierBridge]

Quote:

Thats exactly why you don't pay ANY catcher 23 mil/year

Your right you pay one of the 3 best baseball players in the league a lot more. Lucky we got the home town discount.

[Willy]

Oh wow Dave. You are off your rocker.

Thatoneguy boxed you up pretty good about your power rantings. Also, no Johan were not worth the money he got. Can you honestly say he has been? Johan has been good, pretty dam good, but not the pitcher he was here where he was a Cy Young Candidate year after year.

Mauer simply is one of, if not the best catcher that has played the game in the last 20-30 years. That is just the way it is. Morneau will fetch nowhere near the $ Joe got, he just won't. Lots of 1B that can whack the ball.

PS You go squat down for 3 hours a night and see how your knees feel. No catcher plays every game. It is rare to find one that plays over 130 game. It is hard on your body. You catch him every single game, pretty soon he gets beat up and plays poorly or goes on the DL. This is not just Joe, it goes for any catcher in baseball from little league all the way up to MLB.

[SledNeck]

I wish we still had Torii instead of span.

[Big Dave2]

Your right you pay one of the 3 best baseball players in the league a lot more. Lucky we got the home town discount.

Who are the other 2?

[Big Dave2]

Morneau will fetch nowhere near the $ Joe got, he just won't. Lots of 1B that can whack the ball.

If there are so many, how come the Twins have only had 2 in the last 40 years?

[Big Dave2]

PS You go squat down for 3 hours a night and see how your knees feel. No catcher plays every game. It is rare to find one that plays over 130 game. It is hard on your body. You catch him every single game, pretty soon he gets beat up and plays poorly or goes on the DL. This is not just Joe, it goes for any catcher in baseball from little league all the way up to MLB.

You just don't pay attention. I never said tht any catcher should play more than 130 games. That's the point, why would you have the highest paid player on your team be a guy that only will play 130 games? Make him into a 2nd or 3rd baseman and I will have no problem with the salary. He can't help his team when he is sitting on the bench.

[zamboni]

I wish we still had Torii instead of span.

We all do, sir

[PierBridge]

Not I!

I'll take Span over Hunter at 1.3 Million for the last 2 years versus 36 million that Hunter has made the last 2 seasons.

Span hit .310 last year in case that slipped your memory and Hunter missed 50 games.

I am happy Tori went to a winning organization "chuckle" and is now delegated to playing right-field.

[Big Dave2]

Not I!

I'll take Span over Hunter at 1.3 Million for the last 2 years versus 36 million that Hunter has made the last 2 seasons.

Span hit .310 last year in case that slipped your memory and Hunter missed 50 games.

I am happy Tori went to a winning organization "chuckle" and is now delegated to playing right-field.

You're really good at hind-sight. Could you please predict the performance of all of the Twins players next year?

[PierBridge]

Quote:

Could you please predict the performance of all of the Twins players next year?

I'll predict Joe Mauer continues to be one of the 2 "pujols" best players in MLB and his presence on the Twin's gives them a 100 percent better chance to a World Series title than your idea that we are better off not having him and his contract.

[Cicada]

Since this is getting to be a pick on Big Dave thread, I'll throw in two cents.

Seems like you argue the irrelevance of a point with an irrelevant point.

"Nice try but McCann is only making 5.7 mil this year and won,t make what Maur made this year for 3 more years. Joe will be making 23 mil next year, hard to compare those 2 players."

I think the point is the difference in pay is directly related to the performance.

"I'm glad you brought up Pujols. He has done twice as much offensively than Mauer and is a 3 time MVP and finished 2nd three times as well and he is only making 14 mil this year??????????"

How can you compare a contract that was made in 2004 to one made in 2010? In the unreal world of baseball inflation, that 2004 contract will look like peanuts to a lot of contracts.

"Thats exactly why you don't pay ANY catcher 23 mil/year"

Being an old catcher myself, I might be just a tab biased, but catchers value goes a lot deeper than just games played. We are the smartest players on the team (again, my slightly biased opinion) whether on the field or in the dugout. We are the only player where every play is in front of them and they direct the defense all the time.

"You can't control injuries and Mauer may go through a stretch on injuries someday as well."

Hey, good point! He already has been dinged up, comes with the position. That's why catchers will never end up challenging Cal Ripkin Jr's record.

Look at it this way. Maybe his contract, or should I say value, might be more directly related to how many tushes he puts in the seats. The good thing for the Twins is that they have had a recent history of having good backup catching so we don't have to abuse our starter. Sal Butera may sort of prove that defense is the most important part of the position. I better quit running off at the mouth, you may have already found a arguable point.

[PierBridge]

Morneau's looking at 20 million per type numbers for sure.

[PierBridge]

Bingo Cicada!

[thatoneguy]

One last thing, then I'll stop pummeling poor Dave.

Compare Pujols' production to the other top FIRST BASEMEN, and compare Mauer's production to the other top CATCHERS. Different things are expected from different positions.

It is exceedingly rare to find a catcher who is good defensively and a star offensively - there have only been a handful in my lifetime. 1B who can rake are much, much easier to find: Pujols, Morneau, Adrian Gonzalez, Texeira, Cabrera, Konerko, Morales (pre celebration injury), Votto, Youkilis, Howard, Huff, Fielder and Dunn - just off the top of my head. I'm sure I'm missing a couple. If you don't have one of the top two, you can get excellent production from any of the next dozen.

Catchers who are defensive stars, handle a staff well, and are elite hitters? You've got two: Mauer and McCann, and Mauer is light years ahead of McCann both offensively and defensively. If you don't have one of the top two, your production takes a massive hit.

The law of supply and demand applies to baseball just like it does most anything else in life: you pay for scarcity and you pay for quality. When you get both in the same package, you pay extra - and it's usually worth it, like it has been for the Twins.

[thatoneguy]

@ Pier

I would be stunned if Morneau gets anywhere near 20 mil. His production has been terrific, but he has had major injury trouble two years in a row, and he plays a position where it's easy to find good production. I see him getting 13-14 mil, plus incentives that could add another 3-4.

I hope he gets (and stays) healthy...the Twins need him to make a deep playoff run!

[Big Dave2]

One last thing, then I'll stop pummeling poor Dave.

Compare Pujols' production to the other top FIRST BASEMEN, and compare Mauer's production to the other top CATCHERS. Different things are expected from different positions.

I'd rather look at who helps the team more. When Morneau is healthy it's not even close.

It is exceedingly rare to find a catcher who is good defensively and a star offensively - there have only been a handful in my lifetime. 1B who can rake are much, much easier to find: Pujols, Morneau, Adrian Gonzalez, Texeira, Cabrera, Konerko, Morales (pre celebration injury), Votto, Youkilis, Howard, Huff, Fielder and Dunn - just off the top of my head. I'm sure I'm missing a couple. If you don't have one of the top two, you can get excellent production from any of the next dozen.

Again I ask, if all star 1st basemen are so easy to find, how come the Twins have only had 2 in the last 4 decades?

Catchers who are defensive stars, handle a staff well, and are elite hitters? You've got two: Mauer and McCann, and Mauer is light years ahead of McCann both offensively and defensively. If you don't have one of the top two, your production takes a massive hit.

The Twins had one of the best offensive catchers in the league at a fraction of Mauers salary when they let Pierzinsky go.

The law of supply and demand applies to baseball just like it does most anything else in life: you pay for scarcity and you pay for quality. When you get both in the same package, you pay extra - and it's usually worth it, like it has been for the Twins.

Get back to me when Joe Mauer wins something meaningfull. The Twins went farther in the playoffs pre-Mauer than Post Mauer.

[jwmiller33]

Dave you can't seriously be comparing Mauer to AJ, are you?

[PierBridge]

@ Pier

I would be stunned if Morneau gets anywhere near 20 mil. His production has been terrific, but he has had major injury trouble two years in a row, and he plays a position where it's easy to find good production. I see him getting 13-14 mil, plus incentives that could add another 3-4.

I hope he gets (and stays) healthy...the Twins need him to make a deep playoff run!

I hope you're right and we can get him for 13-ish. 20 million may be bit high now that I think about it.

On the open market he is going to have a lot of interest though!

[thatoneguy]

Quote:

The Twins had one of the best offensive catchers in the league at a fraction of Mauers salary when they let Pierzinsky go.

That confirms it: Dave is just trolling. He can't expect anyone to take him seriously after that gem. The only thing AJ EVER led the league in? Grounding into double plays, in 2004.

Yeah. AJ had a couple of nice seasons. He was an abomination defensively, and was light years behind Mauer offensively.

Worst. Comparison. Ever.

[jwmiller33]

Worst. Comparison. Ever.

couldnt have said it better myself

[jwmiller33]

Dave please show some stats at how you came to the conclusion AJ was "one of the best catchers in the league" when he was with the Twins.... and please put these numbers side by side with Mauer's numbers, and lets have a looksy...

[Big Dave2]

A.J. was a career .300 hitter for the Twins. You guys have all said yourself that you don't normally get that kind of production out of a catcher.

A.J. hit .312 his last year with the Twins. He had 77 RBI and 11 HRs. Those numbers aren't much different than Mauer's numbers this year and A.J did it for $365,000 compared to Mauers 12 million he is making this year. I would call that some serious bang for the buck.

[Big Dave2]

I hope you're right and we can get him for 13-ish. 20 million may be bit high now that I think about it.

On the open market he is going to have a lot of interest though!

Morneau is already going to make 15 mil this year. Assuming he doesn't go completely down the tubes in the next 3 years, why would he sign for less money than he currently makes?

Mark Teixeira signed a Mauer like 8 yr 180 mil per year contract 2 years ago that makes him 20 mil per year. Why would Morneau be worth any less than that? Teixeira has had injury problems as well. In fact 4 of the 5 years directly preceding his Yankees contract he only played in 78, 54, 103 and 54 games.

[Big Dave2]

http://www.amateurgm.com/top-9-catchers-of-the-decade

Dave please show some stats at how you came to the conclusion AJ was "one of the best catchers in the league" when he was with the Twins.... and please put these numbers side by side with Mauer's numbers, and lets have a looksy...