The gift of the deer tag vs trophy bucks

[lakevet]

Iowa DNR way of thinking (not mine alone):

"The majority of the kill occurs in december after the deer breeding season when bucks are less vulnerable to being over hunted. The timing of this harvest is one of the main reasons Iowa maintains a high quality deer herd while still having the ability to take many antlerless deer."

from: A Review of Iowa's Deer Management Program page 11

www.iowadnr.gov/wildlife/files/files/draft_report.pdf

To interpret this in relating to this post:

Get the hunt off the breeding season and you can have the gift of the tag AND lots of trophy bucks

Why do some want to cause conflict between hunters with opinions not backed up by facts?

When sound evidence is presented, conflict diminishes.

It seems obvious to me but maybe the Iowa DNR and me are missing something.

lakevet

[96trigger]

Lakevet,

Are you saying that we should manage the population the way the DNR did 50 years ago? Back when the population was all but decimated in all of Minnesota. I don't believe that way of thinking worked. I think what the DNR has done to manage the heard over the last 20 years has worked well. I know that there are some areas where the tagging got too zealous and maybe should have been backed off earlier. But it won't take long for the population to rebound in those areas.

Do you disagree that gifting a tag to someone that already has one is redundant? I really would have much more satisfaction watching my 60 year old dad shoot a nice buck, than have him gift me his because I had already shot one and another dandy happened to walk in front of me. A better "Gift" would have been for me to put him in the hot stand. If anybody remembers last year, I shot a decent buck on opening morning. My cousin had not shot a deer yet. I took him to my bow hunting spots and put him in my stand that I had been seeing a nice buck out of, but had never firearm huntede out of. Low and behold he shot it, and it will be a memory that we share. I don't think it would have been nearly as memorable had I shot it and used his tag. Don't think that all of us are just out for horns. I get a lot of satisfaction of seeing anybody shoot trophy deer, myself, my dad, my cousin, uncless, whoever. Funny thing is, another decent buck had come by me that same night, I never shot it. I was not going to use his tag. Say what you want about how great a gift it is, I would have felt selfish taking his tag, even though he would have been happy to give it to me. I'm sure it worked out much better for both of us in the end.

[lakevet]

Are you saying we should not manage like Iowa and Wisconsin? Have they "decimated " their deer population by managing according to the quote and the study you can read on Iowa's Dnr HSOforum?

The point is you chose to use your tag as you feel appropriate, and I can gift mine if I so desire and the person I want to gift it to can accept or refuse it. Again, if Iowa and Wisconsin can keep both groups of hunters more satisfied, why not do it that way. I am proposing a win/win. You are saying my way only, when you can accomplish your goal without outlawing mine. Also making one change at a time ( like apr's ) would make it easier to see if it had an impact that was substantial enough to matter. Banning cross tagging is not going to make much difference. See the first post in this thread.

lakevet

p.s. back in the 50's and first half of the 60's (50 years ago) was some of the best deer hunting for numbers and big bucks our family ever had. Most of the "wallhangers" came in that time frame. I believe late 60's is when population crashed, partly hunting pressure but more so severe winters here up North.

[lakevet]

Exactly right and 100% legal...........til this Fall in zone 3

We like watching someone receiving the gift of the tag. Just like at a birthday party, everyone watches the gifts being opened, but it is about the people at the party, especially the birthday person as well as what they are getting. It is a shared experience expressing how important we are to each other.

It is part of our group dynamic. We share and take turns. We don't keep score (except if someone has a long dry spell we notice and try to up their odds If they want that done) , instead we collect alot of shared memories that we can enjoy year around with each other. Taking away the gift of the tag for us is like having everyone buy their own birthday present. You can get together and have the birthday party, but it changes the dynamic.

No I don't think it is giving someone else your tag redundant and the above quote is why.

Is it redundant for a hunter to hunt Minnesota, shoot a buck on one bank of the St Croix river then jump across to Wisconsin and shoot another buck on another tag from Wisconsin on the opposite bank? Isn't that increased pressure on deer on the border areas where deer go back in forth and have to dodge that same hunter with 2 buck tags as an individual? Why let him shoot 2 bucks? He is taking opportunity away from the hunter who can't afford to state hop. Is that fair? Just think how many more bucks we could save by having a" nationwide one buck per hunter per year" rule. just kidding

lakevet

[lakevet]

CANOPY SAM

"I have to admit though, if I were in stand with any of my kids, or if I still could hunt (with my Dad) I wouldn't hesitate to let them shoot a nice buck and tag it with my tag vs. me taking the animal. "

That is the gift of the tag.

That is my whole point.

That is what has been taken away from zone 3 hunters and probably the rest of us are targeted for similar changes.

You won't be able to let your child shoot two deer and have Dad use his tag on one. Believe me kids notice when Dad does that. Or when another member of the party gives his tag to you. Or your Dad gives his tag to another kid. I sure did, and am deeply indebted to my Dad in learning about generosity and the importance of putting people first before getting a deer.

You won't be able to let your aging parent use your buck tag because they think it is wrong for a son to give their father the gift of their tag. Instead that deer walks so it can be around next season when your parent won't be hunting anymore.

Why can't we maintain the option to do so for those of us who want to maintain our traditions?

This is also why I don't think it is redundant, it is a transfer or "gift" of something you possess that is of value and that money literally can't buy. You only get one buck tag in Minnesota no matter what you position in society or what your financial status.

lakevet

[LOTWSvirgin]

[Rippinlip]

I AGREE, I'M OUT!

[InTheNorthwoods]

Are you sure about statement #1? I don't know much about it, but all I've been able to find are the rules of Fair Chase prohibiting fenced in animals. None of the game reserves I quoted are fenced in. A Google search also has this from the MN DNR site, although the page is down "Though deer shot in fenced game farms don't qualify as Boone and Crockett records, bucks hunted in unfenced preserves do, if taken according to the club's ..."

As for point #2. Yes, they prove that if you have thousands of acres of private land, manipulate the land so there are optimal food sources, and then micro-manage it by limiting the number and size of animals harvested you will wind of up with bigger bucks.

I guess you need to clarify exactly what you are referring to going back to your original post re: advertised hunts. It is correct that fair chase, managed land hunted deer are eligible for P&Y and B&C - this is what I was referring to in the second part of my post. What I am referring to is when you say "preserve" that implies that it is not a fair chase hunt and that it is behind a fence on farm raised deer. Likely a couple of the operations that you cited in that first post are game "preserves". This would be the "hunts" where the people are advertising that they can sell you a B&C deer (for example, a 170" deer for $5000, a 180" deer for $6000, and call for price and availability on animals over 200").

Finally, one last point to bring to light based on some observations in this and the other thread going similar to this one, is that just becasue bucks are allowed to get older or even if bucks are protected, very few of them will ever make it to B&C size. That is based on having good genetics and very good forage. Any of the places that advertise that they can offer a high percentage at a B&C buck is likely full of it - there simply aren't that many of them, even on the most well managed land.

[Getanet]

Thanks Northwoods. I may have been using the wrong term, perhaps Outfitters would have been the more appropriate term. I found them all on this site:

http://www.worldclassoutdoors.com/macedonagamepreserve.htm

Interestingly, there aren't listed for MN. Maybe the ones in MN just aren't paying to advertise - although I don't know of any off the top of my head. Either way, the point is, these managed hunts definitely increase your changes of getting a B&C/P&Y. People are wondering why MN isn't measuring up - and this has to be one of the reasons why.

[nonteepical]

200,000 deer harvested during the rut or 200,000 deer shot after the rut isn't going to matter, 200,000 deer is still 200,000 deer. I measured at the Iowa deer classic last year and 10% of the heads brought in were boone, i think they were pretty vulnerable in a feeding pattern in december. you get that many people in the woods pushing them around any time of the year isn't going to make that much difference. with a 67% year and a half and younger bucks shot in Mn. annually dosen't sound like many big ones to me. at the minnesota deer classic this year i think we had 8 boone out of about +-350 entries.

[MOSSY]

Trigger it is not always about a "hot stand".some years some people in our party can't see a deer no matter what stand they are on and some see deer no matter where they are.I sure do not see the problem with someone shooting a deer for me.I like venison!!!!! nothing makesme happier or prouder than when my kids or spouse shoot one. I would hate to tell them your done now.time to go home and play video games ar watch tv. We would rather be in the woods enjoying ourselves.(have you ever seen the excitement of a kid after they shoot a deer,nothing better)

[Bear55]

Trigger it is not always about a "hot stand".some years some people in our party can't see a deer no matter what stand they are on and some see deer no matter where they are.I sure do not see the problem with someone shooting a deer for me.I like venison!!!!! nothing makesme happier or prouder than when my kids or spouse shoot one. I would hate to tell them your done now.time to go home and play video games ar watch tv. We would rather be in the woods enjoying ourselves.(have you ever seen the excitement of a kid after they shoot a deer,nothing better)

That is all good and everything Mossy and I can understand you wanting your wife and kids to be able to shoot multiple deer a year but also remember every time someone else shoots a deer they are taking away an opportunity from someone else, maybe another kid who has never shot a deer before. Sure I would be happy to see my kid shoot two deer, but I would rather see him and my nephew each get their own.

I also understand that most of the time people willingly give up their tags for others to shoot a deer for the them or the party but to me it just doesn't seem fair that a lucky hunter or hunters can shoot 2 or more deer each while the party down the road doesn't shoot anything because one party used the system to shoot as many deer as possible. Everyone here likes venison, I just don't see a reason why a person need to shoot multiple deer a year unless the population is too high.

[lakevet]

That is all good and everything Mossy and I can understand you wanting your wife and kids to be able to shoot multiple deer a year but also remember every time someone else shoots a deer they are taking away an opportunity from someone else, maybe another kid who has never shot a deer before. Sure I would be happy to see my kid shoot two deer, but I would rather see him and my nephew each get their own.

When a member of my party shoots a deer and I gift them my tag, I also gift them my opportunity to shoot a deer, not someone else's. It is not about taking it is about giving.

In hindsight I would have better served this discussion by titling the post:

"We can have the gift of the deer tag and trophy bucks by working together"

I truly believe that.

APR's will save 70%+ of 1 1/2 yr old deer. Don't see many arguing over that reg. Obvious solid return on investment backed by studies proving saving majority of bucks

Banning cross tagging will save only 7 - 10% of 1 1/2 yr old deer, yet is causing a heated debate of my type of hunting vs your type of hunting. Why waste all that effort on something with so low return of saving so few bucks. If someone has info on cross tagging ban saving a significant majority of bucks like apr's 70%+ let me know. Everything I have read the expert gives that low number then says "but it just isn't right". I think it is a reg based in opinion more than solid return on investment, and thus causes more debate. I think that is why it is only briefly mentioned when the new regs are discussed, and very little if any facts are given regarding how many bucks it will save.

lakevet

[MOSSY]

Bear

do you party hunt now or hunt by yourself?

personally I think most of the people against party hunting are the ones that hunt by themselves. I do both and find it way more enjoyable party hunting

[nonteepical]

i still don't get why people think they are taking away party hunting.

[ejf76]

Neither do I nonteep. I posted this on the other thread as well but is probably more fitting for this one.

Reminder: the DNR has only made it illegal to cross-tag bucks. I think it is something that is a long time coming considering MN has long been a one buck per hunter state when it comes to issuing tags. I hunt in both the shotgun and bow season and do agree with the one buck per hunter rules. But for those complaining about the new regs for cross-tagging bucks, I would ask how they would feel about the DNR allowing hunters to have multiple buck tags (one for bow, rifle/shotgun, muzzy). This is the way it is in ND, although they do draw for tags. There is no reason someone needs to fill someone else's buck tags given the policies the DNR has long held.

I would think and hope the DNR continues to allow party hunting for does. I understand the desire to fill tags in a party to be able to continue traditions in the field as well as after season processing traditions. There are many reasons to keep cross-tagging leagal for anterless deer. However there has never been much uproar over only allowing one buck tag per person throughout the seasons but yet now when that policy is applied to filling someone else's tag it becomes a big issue for many hunters. I think its hypocritical and would hope they soon extend that policy to all zones.

[Bear55]

Bear

do you party hunt now or hunt by yourself?

personally I think most of the people against party hunting are the ones that hunt by themselves. I do both and find it way more enjoyable party hunting

I've always hunted with a large party, some guys in our group still party hunt but many of us don't. I just don't feel people don't need to shoot more then one deer a year unless the population allows for more tags.

[mabr]

i still don't get why people think they are taking away party hunting.

NT my guess is that previously you could shoot whatever came by (drives) and worry about tagging after the fact. Now they are going to have to worry about what it is they are shooting at. Same issue with the 4 points to a side. No more brown its down, now there going to have to make sure.

IMO these are both great new laws that not only help the herd but will make the woods alot safer as a bonus.

[B.S. Bait]

I live and hunt near the white earth reservation. The natives there get 5 tags each, any sex at a very low cost like $5.00 each. When will the laws change for them? They also need a seperate record book for animals killed with rez tags. As shining is legal on some reservations.

[nonteepical]

I am for allowing more then one buck in a season under one circumstance, and that would be special lottery hunts such as Ripley, state parks or urban hunts to thin deer. those are lands closed to public hunting anyway and odds are you don't draw them every year.

[fivebucks]

I just hope this rule doesn't hit the north woods. Right now it would be OK because there are plenty of bonus doe tags out there. That can all change very fast with a hard winter and then we could be back to bucks only with a couple of doe permits for 8 guys. It is pretty hard to fill tags if you can't cross tag bucks in a situation like that. I would not be opposed to no cross tagging of bucks as long as you are not in a lottery area. If in a lottery area I think you need to allow cross tagging to keep the "hunting party tradition" alive. If you have 8 guys up hunting for a week and you're done if you shoot a buck on opening morning, that would very much stink if you can't continue hunting to help your buddies bring a deer home.

[Basseyes]

What about herd health?

What is our buck to doe ratios across MN or your hunting area?

Is our buck to doe ratios reflective of a healthy deer herd from a biological perspective?

How many states do not allow party hunting and are they all wrong and we're right?

Party hunting is a thing of the past and going to go away eventually like it or not. I doubt it will lead to any noticeable increased lose of hunters. I could care less if it stays legal or not. Our herd health is off and that is what needs to be addressed not antler size and a party hunting tradition left alone just because that's the way it's been. If party hunting is not about selfishness then let it go for the health of the herd. Constantly saying it's not about being selfish raises a red flag to me, thou dost protest to much. In getting rid of party hunting its been stated that people wouldn't hunt or would leave when they shot a deer. My question to that theory is coming from guys who claim to party hunt with a bunch of unselfish guys? That seems to define selfish behavior if they'd leave with little thought or care about anyone else, curious? One thing I've noticed about western states is they care more for the over all health of their herds. They understand bull to cow and buck to doe ratios. While we squabble about this is the way I like it or this is the way it's always been so leave it alone.

I personally think cross tagging bucks is poor management.

I also think managing for only the goal of big bucks is equally as bad.

Herd health and long term habitat management should take precedent over both social opinions for bigger bucks and traditional hunting regulations!

[Bear55]

Nice post Basseyes, very well said.

[ejf76]

Manageing for bigger bucks and keeping a healthy deer herd go hand in hand in a lot of ways. As long as the hunter is also willing to do their part in harvesting does along the way to maintain a healthy population.

[Getanet]

What about herd health?

What is our buck to doe ratios across MN or your hunting area?

I've often wondered this myself. I don't know what the buck to doe ratio is, but the DNR does provide harvest figures. 2007 was the most recent year I could find, where a total of 109K Bucks and 152K does where shot. Estimates for the MN deer population are generally around 1 million deer. In almost every area more does than bucks are harvested. So we know plenty of bucks are making it through the hunting season.

But here's my question...how does having more mature bucks help the herd? I know that may sound funny, but it's a serious question. QDM guys will admit you can't tell a deer's genetics (or potential) simply by it's rack. Bucks don't have father/son relationships where the mature animal educates a younger buck. And in most parts of the state, man is their main predator.

So ecologically speaking how does it help the heard to have more mature bucks?