No more party hunting in Zone 3, SE MN

[james_walleye]

I agree purple. I have relation that is out west and the past couple years they have been lucky to get a deer. I don't think anyone is pushing for APR's in areas like this. Zone 3 is a different animal. The mindset in zone 3 for the most part is a different animal.

If in 3 years APR's works in zone 3 and they start polling zone 4 hunters and they find 70% of hunters are against it, knowing how our DNR works you won't have to worry about it. They won't implement them in that situation.

[11-87]

Personally I like to eat venison. I have never eaten a rack in my life and I would not be happy if the government told me I had to go a year or 3 without venison just because a 10 pointer didn't walk by me.

Same here, but if that means I shoot a preg Doe, I shoot a Preg Doe.. then where will all these "Antler Hunters" find their buck in the next 2-3 years?

As for a Poll, Nobody ever called or knocked on my door or mailed me.

[james_walleye]

11-87 im not going to argue this one. The numbers arent secret. Look them up.

Not sure where you hunt but everyone i've talked to is thrilled with the regs.

Take it to fisherman? You mean like the slot limits that have really worked well on many lakes?

We have all kinds of fees or regs? This isnt a game farm in Texas. We dont have fees and regs where you pay more for a bigger fish caught or a larger animal shot.

[james_walleye]

I never got polled either. Its called a sample and its good within a couple percentage points. You don't have to poll the entire population.

Antler hunters? Feel free to rephrase that into "the zone 3 majority" beccause that is who you are talking about.

[PurpleFloyd]

11-87 im not going to argue this one. The numbers arent secret. Look them up.

Not sure where you hunt but everyone i've talked to is thrilled with the regs.

Take it to fisherman? You mean like the slot limits that have really worked well on many lakes?

We have all kinds of fees or regs? This isnt a game farm in Texas. We dont have fees and regs where you pay more for a bigger fish caught or a larger animal shot.

Aren't slots a little different? In QDM as I understand it, you can only harvest a buk 8 pts or larger and nothing smaller period. In fishing they allow you smaller fish up to a certain size for consumption and then over a certain size as a trophy. My guess is if the state went to no Walleyes under 30 inches and a limit of 1 a year there would be some problems. If QDM involved ALL hunters a way to harvest a deer for consumption aside from a trophy ( Taking a doe instead) or whatever then it would be more similar. Or am I mistaken and is there an allowance to take a deer other than 8+ in lieu of passing on the 2-6 pointers? Just looking for clarification.

[james_walleye]

Just a reference purple. In both situations you are restricted in which animals may be harvested.

I think the area around Whitewater is the only area in which you can't take more than 1 deer so for the most part you can take a doe for consumption without applying for a permit. I've never had a problem putting that doe in the freezer while saving the buck tag. I'd have to check this years regs but some areas in the past few years you could take up to 5 deer, with only 1 being a buck.

[mabr]

I havent read the regulations yet either. But I'd be willing to bet that QDM, APR will only be implimented in areas that are under intensive harvest, or something similar which will allow all hunters to at the least take does.

QDM, APR's while I personally would like to see it State wide arent IMO going to be able to be used in many parts of the state unless the herd size is increased.

As I said Id love to see it state wide, BUT not if it meant that a person could be put in the position where they were limited to an 8 point or better only without the option of taken a doe for the freezer. And from what Ive seen around the state, Id be willing to bet there arent going to be to many new areas (with the exception of the North Metro) that will EVER go to the APR. There are just to many variables that effect the herd, especially the northern third of the state.

What my hope is that after 3 years the DNR surveys hunters again. Then Im sure you will see plenty want to start killing good bucks like area 3 is producing. Then the Dnr would look at what areas can actually be managed for APR and begin implementing it in gradually. May just be a few hunt units to start with until they have enough deer to actually do it. To repeat myself again you need to have a sizable deer herd to even start to think about APR from what I have read.

To clear up one thing some people keep saying on here is that youth will not be able to take what they want. FOLKS THIS IS NOT TRUE! All youth will still be able to harvest whatever they want whether it be MEA week or regular season, at least that the way I read what Lou say in Outdoornews. So please drop that agrument.

[psepuncher]

All youth will still be able to harvest whatever they want whether it be MEA week or regular season,

got it.

unfortunantly I don't understand what the MEA Week, er- youth only hunt entails right now.

Like, can I still bow hunt in peace?

[psepuncher]

APR's have been introduced elsewhere with hunter support growing drastically after 3 years of seeing results and you will see the same thing happen in zone 3. APR's are not a new concept. They have been introducted with success in other states and SE MN will be added to that list.

Hi,

I am wanting to know what states you're referring to.

I feel by looking up their latest success rates is indicative to

the managment plan that South Easten MN is implimenting. For a long term plan we need to know their history of APR to see if their goals are being achieved.

Thanks.

[mabr]

PSE I think PA is the best example most will site. Thats the one that pops into my head first off. They ran the head DNR guy off after it went into effect. Then after three years they seen its effect they all fell in love with it.

As far as will you be able to bow hunt in peace. Im not sure on that one yet no one will say one way or the other yet. Regs should be coming out soon I hope. I would venture to say its going to be similar to the ealry antlerless season we have had the past few years. But with 80 acres youll be fine, heck they may push deer to you. I cant gun hunt the property in east bethel and noone that I know of around it either so im good.

[96trigger]

PSE, I too wonder what effect the youth hunt will have on bowhunting. I am thinking it might be minimal. Its only for youth 15 and under. Also, there are lots of other things that go on that weekend with waterfowl hunting, etc... I don't think we will see that big of an impact. However, it will be nice to hear what the regs will be, you know, are we going to have to wear blaze orange when bow hunting etc...

I know that MEA traditionally is when I start spending every moment I can in the woods. Often, over MEA, there is a lull in deer activity before the rut starts. This might get deer moving as it can seem really quiet during that week.

[psepuncher]

As far as will you be able to bow hunt in peace. Im not sure on that one yet no one will say one way or the other yet. Regs should be coming out soon I hope. I would venture to say its going to be similar to the ealry antlerless season we have had the past few years. But with 65 acres youll be fine, heck they may push deer to you. I cant gun hunt the property in east bethel and noone that I know of around it either so im good.

{I fixed it...65 acres}

well I remember my son's first youth hunt.

I just hope any deer that's pushed my way are still in one piece

But seriously, we did step on a few toes. We were actually cornerd by a group of hunters as we came into their spot they had set up to hunt. That, I feel was my fault for not going out and scouting before hand. With new kids you'll get tons of new dad's out there.

With this new hunt set in place I hope through media the DNR will make this known. The major factor of that being announced will gain the publics favor and get everyone on the same page.

[psepuncher]

PSE, I too wonder what effect the youth hunt will have on bowhunting.

how about while on a youth only hunt, they

start carrying a crossbow during bow season.

did I say that outloud?

[PEATMOSS]

I never got polled either. Its called a sample and its good within a couple percentage points. You don't have to poll the entire population.

Antler hunters? Feel free to rephrase that into "the zone 3 majority" beccause that is who you are talking about.

I will have to give your side great credit for perpetuating this myth. However, the simple truth of the matter is that IF there was any kind of a committed majority that believed in apr's, then you antler hunters would simply have achieved your goals by now thru voluntary compliance.

[PEATMOSS]

Trigger,

Your side keeps quoting the B&C stats to create this hysteria that we need to criminalize shooting forkies and 6-pointers. IF your side REALLY feels that we need to regain our ranking in the record books, perhaps it's time to examine your sides hunting practices.

It appears as though your party shot four nice "quality" bucks last fall including that 9-pointer you shot(very nice deer by the way). But, just like the forkhorn my brother shot last year, they're all dead and none of these will make the record book.

I'm really curious about your mindset with regards to killing this 9-pointer. Was it your personal best? If not, why did you shoot it? This whole B&C argument you guys keep bringing up seems like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation to me. You use these stats to keep the public land peasants and weekend warriors from shooting forkies and sixers and at the same time, your side is free from any responsibility and can pile up antlered bucks like cordwood so long as they meet your "quality" standard.

IF you're really concerned about our B&C standing, maybe you should be preaching a "shoot your best,leave the rest" ethic amongst yourselves and if you're not willing to do this then perhaps your don't really have the moral authority to use these stats to push your real agenda.

[ejf76]

PEATMOSS,

I think the reason the B&C stats are being used is because there are no other or very little statistics available regarding an age distribution of harvested bucks. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of those arguing for the APR's are not expecting to shoot B&C's every year now nor would they expect anyone else to practice that. Will the introduction of APR's lead to more B&C bucks in the woods? Possibly, but not necessarily. We tend to forget that a B&C rack is not a guarantee if a buck is allowed to grow old. The point to using those statistics is that they are reflective of the trend of mature buck harvest and they are the only statistics available to us to look at, whereas the overall deer, buck-to-doe , and adult-fawn harvest numbers are readily available through the DNR.

I think what you find in the Zone 3 area is a pretty strong theme amongst hunters that they would like a way to protect the 1.5 year old bucks. We look at the habitat and see the potential, but a general lack of production. Now there are areas that do extremely well, but as a whole, there is ample room for improvement.

How to protect them? Thats where the you continue to see more disagreement even amongst those that want some type of protection for the young bucks. Personally, i like the elimination of party hunting for bucks, but am not sure how I feel about the APR's. IMO, moving the firearms season out of the middle of the rut would do a better job of relieving the pressure on those young bucks and would better protect the more advanced 1.5 year olds that are legal within the APR. This would allow your brother to shoot that forkhorn if he chooses, but not at a time when these bucks are going through their first time in the peak of the rut.

But the DNR has chosen the APR as a way to keep the seasons in tact and the traditions hunters have that go with them. Is it perfect? No, but I am glad the DNR is trying something based on input form the area hunters.

[PEATMOSS]

Those B&C stats show that Mn. produced about one Booner a year up to 1979, about ten per year between '80 and 2001 and an abysmal 19.3 per year during this past decade.

This is the disturbing trend that requires the crimanilazation of shooting forkies and 6-pointers?

Before the "we're not #1 anymore" wimpering starts again with someone bringing up Kansas or Illinois, please remember that these states do NOT have apr's. A monumental shift in land usage brought about by the farm crisis of the 80's, coupled with the vast expansion of programs like CRP have blessed these states with exponential growth in their deer herds. As the herd reaches the carrying capacity their numbers will also level out just as Iowa's seem to be doing.

[96trigger]

In regards to my deer, it met my criteria. Was it as big as I had thought, NO. He had a tall rack and was out to the tips of his nose, but he ended up being way more narrow than what I had intentionally thought.

I am not one upping myself, I have shot one really, really nice buck over my 20 years of deer hunting. I probably will never best that one. My "side" for lack of better terms, are not talking about having deer of a lifetime all over the place. Was my deer immature, no, by all means, he was mature, should I have given him one more year? Yes, I'll be the first to admit that. I was still happy with the deer, but it wasn't what I thought it was. Under the new restrictions, he still would have been a very legal deer, as were all the bucks that were shot in my group. However, had 3 of the four been given another year, mine included, they would have been that much better this year.

Again, I think people arguing that APR will not help bucks mature have blinders on. I think if you fundamentally believe that the DNR should not tell anyone what to shoot, than there is no point in arguing any longer, you will keep your heels dug in as I will mine. We will just have to disagree. Once again, I think it is an experiment that is worth trying. I don't need B&C books to tell me that a large number of small, yearling bucks get shot every year. I think the stats are way too misleading anyway. I am sure that many, many people that shoot record book deer, don't spend the money to have them officially scored, and also entered into the book. I did with my first big buck, but I don't know if I will do it with another. That still doesn't negate the fact that many of us, down here would like to see more mature bucks. The ONLY way to get more mature bucks is to let them grow. Another year in the woods, another year of maturity, another year of honing in their instincts make a big difference. It is only my opinion, but during the rut, those small deer are the easiest to target, and therefore, often the first shot.

[PEATMOSS]

Trigger, it's pretty obvious that you and your party are skilled and dedicated hunters.I'm guessing you spend a significant time afield and have access to some pretty decent hunting land. Those were 4 dandy bucks you guys shot and you should be proud.

What strikes me is how you can have a hunt like this and at the same time complain that there are so few big bucks around that we need to crimanalize folks that don't hold antler hunting to the degree of esteem that you do.

I can certainly understand your enthusiasm for big buck hunting and I would strongly support you if you were advocating that folks voluntarily follow your lead. I guess it just irks me that guys like you somehow feel entitled to force your values on others when there is no biological imperative to do so.

[96trigger]

I have never complained that there are few nice bucks around. They are out there, I see at least one every year. Almost all the land down here is signicant hunting land. The biggest buck shot last year by my groupwas on public land. However, I new where he was from bow hunting, I hunted different land opening morning when I shot my buck, my cousin, who hadn't shot a deer yet, asked if I'd take him out there.

You are also taking special offense by thinking that you are being criminalized for hunting for meat. I shoot does every year. I love does, they taste great. We are just advocating that if you really want to shoot deer, than shoot a doe, no need to shoot that small buck when there are does abound.

As for entitlement, I don't feel entitled. I feel like it is good for the area, good for the population, and good for management. For every biological piece of information that I can find that would support a deer herd with more mature bucks, someone will find a piece of information that negates or, they will say that it was written with a hidden agenda, so I don't feel like I need to go back and do research again on the issue. I have read books, articles, and scholarly essays on herd management and animal population, but like all science, there is no LAW of nature for populatioin, it is all theory backed by data. The only law of nature is that as soon as something is born, it starts getting closer to death.

[PEATMOSS]

The difference between you and I Trigger is in our respect for personal liberty.

I think that folks should eat right and get at least an hour of good physical activity every day. If everyone did this all of our health care costs would be lower and we would benifit as a society. I do this myself and encourage others to do so. I'm pretty sure that those that disagree with me would see the light if they gave it 6 months. Does this mean that I would outlaw junk food and force people under threat of the law to get up and go exercise each day? Of course not. I believe people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit, even when I disagree with them.

You obviously have a work and family situation that allows you to spend copious amounts of time deer hunting. I do not. My party of 4 hunt the opening weekend of firearms season. My boys have school and football practice and our family operates a small part time business in the fall. I may get out for an hour or 2 in the evening a couple of times after opening weekend.

We don't intentionally try to crop off yearling bucks. We simply shoot the first adult deer which present themselves. Sometimes it's a doe, sometimes a buck.We do not always fill our tags. We simply do not have the luxury of passing on deer. There are many,many folks like us in this state. The fact that your side wants to crimanalize us for that is deeply upsetting and seems very selfish to me.

[PurpleFloyd]

For better or for worse in the end the law will more than likely result in fewer local blue collar family type parties and more fly in with extra money to burn parties.

Then again in a few generations that may be the way things head anyway.

[MOSSY]

Peat

you reflect my feeling exactly.sometimes that forkie or six is the only deer we may see

Purple you are right on the money it won't be long and you won't be able to hunt unless you own your own land or pay big bucks to shoot your monster that apr guys want

It is a shame want my kids and grandkids some day will have to do just to hunt.

[james_walleye]

[

I will have to give your side great credit for perpetuating this myth. However, the simple truth of the matter is that IF there was any kind of a committed majority that believed in apr's, then you antler hunters would simply have achieved your goals by now thru voluntary compliance.

A myth?? Hahaha. I will not argue this one, the numbers are out there, its not top secret, and in zone 3 the majority of hunters want to see protection for young bucks. Thats straight from a DNR survey. Its obvious PEAT you've either never attempted to look at the poll numbers or maybe you havent a clue what im talking about. Whatever the case may be it doesnt change the FACT that these polls were taken and it doesnt change the results.

[james_walleye]

The difference between you and I Trigger is in our respect for personal liberty.

I think that folks should eat right and get at least an hour of good physical activity every day. If everyone did this all of our health care costs would be lower and we would benifit as a society. I do this myself and encourage others to do so. I'm pretty sure that those that disagree with me would see the light if they gave it 6 months. Does this mean that I would outlaw junk food and force people under threat of the law to get up and go exercise each day? Of course not. I believe people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit, even when I disagree with them.

You obviously have a work and family situation that allows you to spend copious amounts of time deer hunting. I do not. My party of 4 hunt the opening weekend of firearms season. My boys have school and football practice and our family operates a small part time business in the fall. I may get out for an hour or 2 in the evening a couple of times after opening weekend.

We don't intentionally try to crop off yearling bucks. We simply shoot the first adult deer which present themselves. Sometimes it's a doe, sometimes a buck.We do not always fill our tags. We simply do not have the luxury of passing on deer. There are many,many folks like us in this state. The fact that your side wants to crimanalize us for that is deeply upsetting and seems very selfish to me.

PEAT no one is trying to force APR's into areas like yours where the deer situation is obviously different than what we have in zone 3. When i say the majority of people in zone 3 want change, its not a bogus statement. That is the mindset down here. I wish i had the exact numbers for the first 29 counties in MO that had APR's. I believe when installed that around 35% of hunters were for them. After 3 years the number was around 60-65%. In zone 3 we already have, in some polls, close to 60% of people wanting change. With that much support....why shouldnt the DNR install change?? Maybe its hard to comprehend in other parts of the state that so many people have this mindset, but that is what is happening in zone 3.