Traffic law question regarding school buses

[DTro]

I am confused as to the law in which you meet a bus at an intersection. Near my home I am Southbound entering my development and then turn right (west) at an intersection in which a Northbound bus drops kids off at a house on the other side of the intersection (closest house to intersection). I don't have a stop sign but the east/west traffic does.

Is it illegal to make a right turn at this intersection with the bus stopped there that has its red lights flashing? At no point do I ever cross the stop arm and at the very least is a full (east/west) road width separation between us.

[ScoutII]

I am the driver of the SCHOOL BUS you are talking about. My wish here is not to start trouble, but I would like to make a suggestion or two. First when in doubt ERROR ON THE SAFE side. Second show some respect for your neighbors children and other authority figures (STOP SIGN). Do the RIGHT thing in the future PLEASE.

[BobT]

I don't think you would start trouble, scout, because dtro is asking for an honest answer and I think it is a legitimate question. From your perspective, what do you think is the "right" thing in this situation? It sounds like you'd suggest that he wait for you but I'm not sure by your answer.

Edit: Isn't there a distance variable that comes into play. For example, when a school bus is stopped with the stop sign extended, we are required to stop but I believe there is minimum distance that we must keep between us and the bus. If this is true, are you within that distance and if so, then it would seem stopping is probably the right answer.

[DTro]

Priceless

Feel free to talk to me next time. I don't bite.

I had a nice conversation with the local officer today, but still didn't get a clear definition of the law, and I don't see where at any time I was "disrespecting" anyone.

[bobbymalone]

I had a nice conversation with the local officer today, but still didn't get a clear definition of the law

There isn't a clearly written law to deal with every possible scenario on the road.

The careless driving law is intentionally vague, throw elementary kids jumping off the bus in the mix and you are looking at a ticket. Maybe you can spend half the day pleading you case to the judge/prosecutor to prove a point but you won't actually accomplish anything outside of saving a hundred bucks.

Just stop and get over it for chrissakes.

[Jim Almquist]

Here is how the law is written. Is the bus at a house away from the intersection or is it stopped at the intersection and letting kids off ?

Flashing Red Lights

Flashing red lights warn motorists that the school bus is loading or

unloading students. When a school bus is stopped with its red lights

flashing and its stop arm extended, you must stop your vehicle at least 20 feet from the bus. Oncoming traffic and motorists approaching the

bus from behind may not move until the stop arm is retracted and the

red lights are no longer flashing. You can be charged with a misdemeanor

if you break either of these laws. The penalty for this violation is a fine

of not less than $300, and suspension of your driving privileges

[DTro]

I have no problem stopping and intend to, I'm in no hurry and but just wanted a clear definition, and even reading Jim's post I'm still confused.

What muddies it even more is that my house is right when I make the right turn, so I literally turn into my drive.

I don't mind erring in caution, but don't like being accused of breaking a law if I didn't.

[bobbymalone]

I would think that, at some point during your turn, some part of your vehicle would be pretty darn close to 20 feet from some part of the bus. And I think if you were within 20 feet of the bus and moving, regardless of the direction, then I think you would have violated the statute posted by jimalm.

[ScoutII]

Safety is the issue.

The stop sign on the bus ,that is extended, is a STOP sign that deserves respect just as any other stop sign. You at least should stop.

The bus was part way into the intersection not behind a crosswalk. This is done to bring attention to the situation.

[DTro]

Here's what it looks like:

[DTro]

Safety is the issue.

The stop sign that is extended is a STOP sign that deserves respect just as any other stop sign.

Also I would like to mention that I have been patient, because this was the SECOND time this week you have done this.

I've been doing it for years. I never thought twice about it. Now I will.

[ScoutII]

Thank You.

[CJH]

I think you stop out of courtesy, but that is a tough one DTRO!!!

[BobT]

The only thought I've had about this whole thread is that dtro has simply and politely asked for opinions or clarifications about whether he was or would be doing something illegal under the circumstances. I can't help it but sense a certain antagonism from SscoutII in his replies. I understand that maybe he deals with a lot of buttheads out there on the road but it just doesn't seem that it justifies he being so aggressive. Maybe I'm misinterpreting a little?

I don't know what the rules are for the driver of the bus but is it necessary to stop traffic in all four directions by using the intersection as a drop-off point? If the bus driver stopped 30 feet earlier it would seem like a safer way to drop off the kids for them as well as himself. Now he only has to be concerned about traffic approaching from the rear and in front and not from left or right as well. Plus, any children that exit the bus and then proceed to cross the side streets are potentially out in front of traffic that may not notice the bus. Maybe he's not allowed to do that but just a thought.

[CAMAN]

Ok, since Dtro's question seems to have been answers, now I have a question. What is the law in which the stop arm should be extended? And when shouldn't it be?

Here's my story...

Last week I was driving down a 4 lane road with a full size median in the middle and stop lights at every intersection. The bus in front of me stopped about 100 feet before an intersection to drop off a kid in front of their house. The bus extended its stop arm so I stopped to wait, and so did the traffic in the oncoming direction. It turns out they were dropping off a handicapped child so it literally took 5 or 6 minutes to do the drop. And in the meantime since this was at the start of rush hour there were cars backing up because of the bus in every direction including cars stuck in the middle of the intersections 4 blocks away. After the 5 or so minutes the stop arm retracts and the bus drives away, never once did anyone from the bus cross the street.

Isn't this a time when the bus should have just turned on the yellow warning flashers without the stop arm? Or is the driver required to extend the stop arm at every bus stop?

I'm just curious because of this one bus causing such a huge backup, for which seems to be unneeded.

[DTro]

I honestly don't know the law and that is why I asked. I know some LEO's frequent this site and hoped they could shed some light.

Not a big deal, nobody was ever in danger

[Ryan_V]

Looking at your diagram, I'd say it would be o.k. to turn. the stop arm is to allow children to safely cross in front of the bus. If you're turning, it's not an issue...now if some kids want to come north across the intersection on the side you're turning on, they need to follow the rules too. but I think you are doing the right thing by just waiting. Having young kids myself, I would hope that people have enough respect like you do for the safety of my kids. I would also definetly come to a stop if you have a car behind you, because they may not see the bus with the stop arm extended and just concentrate on you turning and go around you to complete disaster. just my 2 cents!!

[Surface Tension]

We have to assume the kid could be crossing the intersection. I'm pretty sure you have to stop and wait. Some might think the bus shouldn't stop at the intersection as to not create this situation. If that were the case you'd have a chance of traffic getting caught in the intersection and having to stop there. In this case the intersection becomes a 4 way stop and yields to the buses stop signals.

[DTro]

The diagram might be a bad representation, as it is a dense residential area, and out of the picture there on the bottom is a dirt road T that traffic comes in from, so nobody is going any faster than 5 or 10 mph approaching said intersection.

I just figured there would be a law that describes that situation as it must happen frequently I would think.

[muddpuppy]

DTRO By the picture I would think you are safe in turning meaning no laws broke. I would although error on the safe side as the kids will run without caution this way and that. I am also sure you are not rounding the corner at blazzin speeds either.

Scout: The cross walk is there for a reason, Stop behind it and let the kids use it as it’s intended use.

If the bus was stopped behind the crosswalk as it should be, DTRO is further than 20’ from the buss as he turns.

This is just my perspective I am not a cop, lawyer, or a buss driver. I am just a guy calling it as I see it. I have also in the past been ticketed for rolling into a crosswalk. So I know that is illegal!

[DTro]

There is no defined crosswalks there, just a residential street.

[muddpuppy]

My bad then Sorry Scout...... I was just looking at the Diagram with the cross walks and stop signs.

[DTro]

Yeah, not the best diagram, I just grabbed a template from Google, sorry.

Anyways, I didn't want to turn this into who did what right or wrong, just wanted to understand the law a little better.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

We have to assume the kid could be crossing the intersection. I'm pretty sure you have to stop and wait. Some might think the bus shouldn't stop at the intersection as to not create this situation. If that were the case you'd have a chance of traffic getting caught in the intersection and having to stop there. In this case the intersection becomes a 4 way stop and yields to the buses stop signals.

I agree with surface here. We have virtually an identical situation in our neighborhood. I was told that the bus should stop at the intersection because it's stop sign then controls the entire intersection and all vehicles must stop.

Now please don't anyone ask me to provide the statute as all I am going off of is what the transportation dept. for our district told me when I requested that the stop (my kids) be moved away (back a couple houses) from the intersection.

I guess I liken it to a stop light even though it's across the intersection you still have to stop. Now I realize it's a stretch and with that logic you could then make the right on the "red". If you look at your diagram though you could say that you could make the left in front of the bus (as long as you stay 20 feet from it) as you never actually go through that stop sign.

[BobT]

I think it's a good question. From a practical sense I don't see how making that right turn should be threatening to any of the children. They are exiting the bus onto the curb on the opposite side of the street kitty-corner. In order for one of them to even cross dtro's lane, they would have to cross the street in front of the bus and then cross over into dtro's lane. Whether the bus is there or not, the risk is the same.

A left turn would be a whole different story though. A left turn means that dtro would be approaching to within the 20 foot barrier plus he would be potentially turning into a lane that the kids could be crossing almost immediately. Obviously, going straight through the intersection would definitely violate the stop arm rules.

As far as stopping in the middle of the block possibly causing traffic to stop in the in the middle of intersections, this is already an illegal activity. When traffic is heavy we are required to leave intersections open for cross traffic. I know, this is another one of those laws that are rarely and poorly enforced or followed. As supposedly licensed and responsible drivers, we shouldn't have to be told to follow the laws, which brings us back to the original question, is it illegal for dtro to make that right turn?