roading - too young?

[ESmith]

I've surprised myself with how little information I am able to find on Roading dogs and all that goes with it.

In my case, I have a 9mo GSP at 60-65 pounds. Loves to tug on the leash, and its all I can do to keep him at heel on leash. Wondering if roading him a bit might make his training a little easier.

Will putting him in a harness and letting him work be bad for him in any way? Not sure if its good or bad for a young pup do be put under strain, even if they act like they like it. Thinking I'd just let him pull me on foot, short distances at first, to wear him out a little, then go back to the back yard and work on his retreiving and obedience. So should I wait until we're sure he's fully grown, or is it ok to do a little now?

I have found a few roading harnesses, but no idea as to which are good/bad.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Are they actually pulling? I haven't heard of roading before.

We've been dabbling with weight-pulling. Here's Floyd working. That'll tucker 'em out

[Ralph Wiggum]

Personally, I would be concerned over-exerting a pup that young. That's my personal opinion, though, and I don't have any experience with sporting dogs.

[ESmith]

Personally, I would be concerned over-exerting a pup that young. That's my personal opinion, though, and I don't have any experience with sporting dogs.

Yes, "roading" seems to mean either "pulling weight" or more often "jogging down the road." But the term seems to be kind of interchangeable.

I have the same concern. If it is harmful in some way, I won't try it yet. But, many bird hunters road their dogs one way or another to help the dog get into shape, and reduce the risk of the dog running out of steam on a hunt, or worst case, even dying from over exertion. They'll hunt themselves to death, literally, with an ignorant owner or being out of shape. So i've been told.

[Farmboy1]

I have used the term in the past to mean simply running the dog, either with an ATV, or running alongside a bike. I have herd of guys letting their dogs pull some weight, but have never done it myself.

Running a dog (roading) is great for the dog. It is how I get my dog in shape for hunting season. IMHO the only way a dog can put in the miles required to get in shape to hunt for 8 hours is to road them. I prefer to ride bike alongside them so we can both get a little exercise.

[rundrave]

In my case, I have a 9mo GSP at 60-65 pounds. Loves to tug on the leash, and its all I can do to keep him at heel on leash. Wondering if roading him a bit might make his training a little easier.

if your resorting to this because you cant keep your dog at heel you need to go back work on heeling.

I am not saying you shouldnt do the roading that is up to you, but your comment on healing caught my attention.

Have you tried using a choke collar, or even a pinch collar? If not you need to put one on your dog and go for a walk, if he is pulling on the leash give it a good solid jerk while its wearing the choke collar and let the dog know that while on leash that is not tollerable. Just go for a walk, even if you have stop every 5ft and jerk the leash and it takes you 2hours to get around the block thats what its gonna take.

You should be able to put a leash on your dog and have it walk even with your knees and be able to have slack in the leash between you and your dog. good luck

[ESmith]

Originally Posted By: ESmith

In my case, I have a 9mo GSP at 60-65 pounds. Loves to tug on the leash, and its all I can do to keep him at heel on leash. Wondering if roading him a bit might make his training a little easier.

if your resorting to this because you cant keep your dog at heel you need to go back work on heeling.

I am not saying you shouldnt do the roading that is up to you, but your comment on healing caught my attention.

Have you tried using a choke collar, or even a pinch collar? If not you need to put one on your dog and go for a walk, if he is pulling on the leash give it a good solid jerk while its wearing the choke collar and let the dog know that while on leash that is not tollerable. Just go for a walk, even if you have stop every 5ft and jerk the leash and it takes you 2hours to get around the block thats what its gonna take.

You should be able to put a leash on your dog and have it walk even with your knees and be able to have slack in the leash between you and your dog. good luck

We've been at the heel stuff for 7 months. Tango is proving to be stubborn still. He'll heel for all of 15 seconds sometimes, but then its pull, pull pull until you correct him next. I've had some very slow trips around the block, exactly the way you describe doing it. He'll even tug on the choke/pinch collar until you give a sharp correction.

Part of the trouble I think is a stubborn fiance, and she comes up with a new way of training him to heel about once every month. So consistency with the humans has been just as hard as with the dog. Its been everything from trying my way, to peanut butter on a wooden spoon, to currently stepping on his toes every time he gets in front of her. Takes away from my trying to be consistent I think, but tell that to a woman who think's she knows better...

[Ralph Wiggum]

I thought the same thing as Rundrave. Nail down the obedience. Training collars (ie chokers) are invaluable, as long as you are using them correctly. If in doubt, I would find someone to teach you. So much in dog training is you knowing what you're doing and being consistent.

[kentuck_ike]

When heeling or just in the yard does he bump into your leg a lot. It sounds to me like he might think he is the Alpha dog.

[ESmith]

he's run the spectrum on "non-obedient symptoms". Had him heeling pretty good, then his Man Parts dropped and we started all over. off the leash, "heel" is a waste of breath and its difficult to enforce, so I haven't even tried off-leash heeling.

will have to give it more time I guess. Several trainers, and I don't know how many "avid dog guys" have given me almost identical advice.

At some point, when correcting the dog on the leash, I worry about hurting his throat. Light yanks on the leash don't do a thing. Good quick, solid yanks on the leash bring him in line, (and often move the dog backward a few inches) but he just can't seem to understand that "heel" means until I say otherwise, and not just for 5 seconds. 7 months I thought would have just about done it at 5-10 walks per week.

[rundrave]

At some point, when correcting the dog on the leash, I worry about hurting his throat. Light yanks on the leash don't do a thing. Good quick, solid yanks on the leash bring him in line, (and often move the dog backward a few inches) but he just can't seem to understand that "heel" means until I say otherwise, and not just for 5 seconds. 7 months I thought would have just about done it at 5-10 walks per week.

thats why I asked about the choke collar or the pinch collar. With the pinch collar any pain inflicted the dog does it to themself, you dont even have to yank or jerk. One of my dogs learned to heel real quick once it was introduced to the pinch collar.

I happen to have 2 GSP's so I know your pain, the wive part too lol. She seems to let them get away with more than I would do.

[Ralph Wiggum]

He's still a very young dog--give it time and lots of practice.

If you really want to get his attention, slip the choker so that it is up high, just behind his ears. There's a nerve/pressure point there. It doesn't take much of a pop with the collar there and he will react.

A few other training collar points:

1) Make sure it's on right. If the dog heels on your left, the collar should form a "P" when you put it on him (as opposed to a backwards "P"). This allows the collar to hang loose when slack.

2) Keep a loose leash. Constant pulling on the leash will make him pull harder. Short, firm pops on the leash to get his attention. "Heel", pop the leash. "Heel", pop the leash.

3) Don't pull back when you correct him. Pop up over his head with the leash, or if height is an issue, pop towards your knee.

Like I said, he's young. He'll have a wild streak, and I would be amazed to see any 9 month old pup heel perfectly. Stick with it, you will be rewarded with a great dog before you know it!

[ESmith]

thats why I asked about the choke collar or the pinch collar. With the pinch collar any pain inflicted the dog does it to themself, you dont even have to yank or jerk. One of my dogs learned to heel real quick once it was introduced to the pinch collar.

I happen to have 2 GSP's so I know your pain, the wive part too lol. She seems to let them get away with more than I would do.

I have since found out that most of the time the pinch (prong) collar has been in the wrong place on his neck. too loose, and too low. I just searched "how to fit a prong collar" on google and came up that. Maybe thats why. Have used a prong collar quite a bit, but its loose and low on his neck. Might be the answer right there.

Tango does MUCH better on prong collar than on normal collars. Have tried weaning him off the prong collar, but once he figures out there is no pinch when he tugs, he's back to his old ways. I guess maybe it'll be nothing but prong collar for a month or two.

Learning process for me for sure. First dog I've ever tried to train somewhat. Grew up on a farm where dogs were outside, and didn't need walking. They also weren't exactly the best on pheasants, but decent. Trying to take the next step with this little rascal.

[ESmith]

He's still a very young dog--give it time and lots of practice.

If you really want to get his attention, slip the choker so that it is up high, just behind his ears. There's a nerve/pressure point there. It doesn't take much of a pop with the collar there and he will react.

A few other training collar points:

1) Make sure it's on right. If the dog heels on your left, the collar should form a "P" when you put it on him (as opposed to a backwards "P"). This allows the collar to hang loose when slack.

2) Keep a loose leash. Constant pulling on the leash will make him pull harder. Short, firm pops on the leash to get his attention. "Heel", pop the leash. "Heel", pop the leash.

3) Don't pull back when you correct him. Pop up over his head with the leash, or if height is an issue, pop towards your knee.

Like I said, he's young. He'll have a wild streak, and I would be amazed to see any 9 month old pup heel perfectly. Stick with it, you will be rewarded with a great dog before you know it!

Ralph, as in my last post, I just figured out that we'd been using the right collar, but it didn't fit where it was supposed to be. Much too loose and subsequently was riding too low on the neck. Might be the answer we've been without. Thanks.

[ESmith]

Now then. Apart from my own lack of knowledge in training.

Lets get back to the issue of Roading. Anyone for or against it on a dog this age? (9 months old or so) German shorthair pointer.

[JayinMN]

I wouldn't at this point because he is not under your control. Letting him pull you along on a walk is only going to give him the idea that he is in charge and your following. Now once your dog is trained to a collar and knows what it means you could introduce a harness and teach him to pull something if you desire him to pull. My dogs know the difference between the collar and harness, but I always make sure they have their walking and obedience down pat first. Something you might want to try is to get him a back pack, put a little weight in it and have him carry that along while you are out on your walk.

[korn_fish]

First off my definition of roading includes the pup actually pulling, not just running.

I usually would wait until 12 mo. However, the trainer of my last pup had her rigged up to an ATV with 4-6 other dogs pulling the ATV around when she was 9 months. she LOVED pulling so much that I started to let her pull me around on my mountain bike. I would give a little assistance when needed (i.e. when first starting out and on inclines etc.) She was only 40lbs.

I see no concern giving your dog this type of workout at this age (see disclaimer below ). Just don't over do it. Start with a short workout like half mile with lots of assistance twice a week. Then slowly increase distance to a couple miles. they make scooters specifically for this type of roading which are much safer than being on a mountain bike.

disclaimer - giving your pup two activities that are distinctly different, i.e. walking at heel, and pulling/roading may actually help with the walking/heeling bit. However, there needs to be a clear distinction between the two and some tough love will be necessary to be given to both the pup and your wife in regards to the walking/heeling part. i.e. someone needs to start being the Alpha here

[ESmith]

I wouldn't at this point because he is not under your control. Letting him pull you along on a walk is only going to give him the idea that he is in charge and your following. Now once your dog is trained to a collar and knows what it means you could introduce a harness and teach him to pull something if you desire him to pull. My dogs know the difference between the collar and harness, but I always make sure they have their walking and obedience down pat first. Something you might want to try is to get him a back pack, put a little weight in it and have him carry that along while you are out on your walk.

Thats the main thing holding me back for the very near future. His obedience is bad enough on the leash, that I had assumed letting him pull a large % of the time might only make the heel training worse.

Unless, it happens that tiring the dog out a bit, makes the obedience training easier. And there is the source my original question. Good thing or bad thing? I hate to just randomly try things to see if they'll work. No two dogs are alike, so I can see it both ways.

[kentuck_ike]

I would bet that it isn't because he doesn't know how. I bet he just thinks he is in charge. I have taken many dog training seminars and I am a semi I professional trainer. I would recommend some seminars to you if you want to e-mail me.

[Todd Caswell]

My opinion is a pinch collar is just a bandade,( corrections need to come from you not the dog deciding the correction) if the dog knows heel then reenforce with a choke chain. Go for a walk with him and every time he gets in front of you sharply change direction, with a sharp snap on the chain. In a day or two he should be paying attention to your every move. Or get a healing stick or whiffle ball bat and give him a swat in the chest, when he tries to get in front. After 7 monthes theres no reason for your dog to be walking you.

I wouldn't road a dog that young, and don't try to wear him out befor OB master it when he is at his most excitable time , then you'll have something.

[gspman]

Roading usually involves running the dog in a harness with or without weight added for pulling. Your dog is still a pup so I wouldn't road him too much just yet as his body is likely still developing. Also if he doesn't heel very well then roading him will likely reinforce the pulling and staying ahead behavior which you don't want.

For heeling keep a short lead on him and carry a dowel rod. When he gets too far in front pop him with the lead and wave the dowel in front of his nose. If he doesn't comply tap him under the chin with the dowel until he does. You might have have to tap harder than you want to in order to achieve the desired response. Once he's heeling well on the leash (ie. it's loose almost all the time) then transition off it but keep using the dowel. Eventually you can transition to an ecollar for this.

Drill come, heel and whoa (especially whoa) into his brain until he has mastered these. He should be able to do all of these off leash fairly consistently. Make sure he knows the difference between training time and play time too.

Once he gets that down and he's older then start roading him. For now just do alot of play time to get him to run.

[SportFishin']

E Smith,

If you are interested the Mn Chapter of NAVHDA is having a Spring training day on April 3rd. Im coming in from Montana for the weekend and will be headed up to see some old friends and do some training at the FourBrooks WMA in Milaca. If you want to I will be staying in Mtka and headed up sat morning for the day. I think this would be beneficial for you & can get most of your training questions answered and get you started in the right direction on your novice training adventure. If your interested you can attend as my guest. Email me and we can work out the details if you need directions or wanna catch a ride with me. It starts at 9am so I will be departing Mpls around 7am. There will be plenty of members willing to help show how to properly train & fit your pup with the pinch collar.

Regards,

Chirs Buller

chris(dot)buller@bresnan(dot)net

[MuleShack]

just wanted to add that with the choker chain, try to keep it up high on the neck, slightly under the chin if your doing a correction. letting it pull on the lower neck doesnt' have the same effect. This way you can raise their head which prevents them from pulling and puts them in correct walking posture to follow.

[ESmith]

Chris,

Thats a kind offer. Unfortunately we'll be in Iowa over Easter weekend. Otherwise I would have taken you up on that.

Meanwhile, we went and picked up a larger pinch collar, the old one we had was too small, and so we hadn't been using it for the past couple months. The dog is great when the pinch collar is on. I called Phil at Windwalker Kennels and he has answered quite a few of my questions, and I believe that is where we'll be going for some formal training (both me and the dog). Made some good progress in the past few days. Knowing how to fit a pinch collar makes a big difference also.

But, like you say, it would be nice to have somebody show me, that knows the right training methods, and how dogs normally respond as they learn.

In speaking with several popular trainers, I think Windwalker kennels will be a good fit. Thank you again for the kind offer, I wish we were in town that weekend.

E Smith,

If you are interested the Mn Chapter of NAVHDA is having a Spring training day on April 3rd. Im coming in from Montana for the weekend and will be headed up to see some old friends and do some training at the FourBrooks WMA in Milaca. If you want to I will be staying in Mtka and headed up sat morning for the day. I think this would be beneficial for you & can get most of your training questions answered and get you started in the right direction on your novice training adventure. If your interested you can attend as my guest. Email me and we can work out the details if you need directions or wanna catch a ride with me. It starts at 9am so I will be departing Mpls around 7am. There will be plenty of members willing to help show how to properly train & fit your pup with the pinch collar.

Regards,

Chirs Buller

chris(dot)buller@bresnan(dot)net

[OutlawTorn]

Now then. Apart from my own lack of knowledge in training.

Lets get back to the issue of Roading. Anyone for or against it on a dog this age? (9 months old or so) German shorthair pointer.

Against, definitely. Leash walks or off leash runs where the dog controls the amount of time he runs is about all you can do when they are this young. Youll create the possibility for bad joints and other development issues by roading a young dog like this. Wait until they're a year old at least.

As for training, I agree with GSPMan and Todd Caswell. The chokers/pinches are a "patch it up" tool. Try the heeling rod suggested by these guys or just use your regular collar and use the proper training methods.

Keep the collar high on the neck, right behind the ears and if the dog pulls, jerk sideways, not back or up. And when I say jerk, dont pull, actually jerk and release quickly. Another trick Ive found works well if they arent paying attention is to reach behind you with the foot opposite the dog and give a slight kick in the flank. Nothing hard, just enough to snap them out of their focus on whatever makes him pull away from you.