home disclosure question

[Itsa Pole Bender]

my wife and I purchased a home in late November. The former owners moved due to work and the sale was handled by a relocation company. The disclosure statement was completely void of any information. Our realtor just kept saying "well that is the way relocation companies work". Since moving in we have had water coming through the upstairs ceiling twice (ice dams) and have found out that the neighbors basketball court, fence, and retaining wall are all partially built on our property.

Does anyone know if there is anything I can do about this?

Oh, by the way, some of our new nieghbors have mentioned that the previous owners had battled water issues with the roof and another one of our neighbors told us that the previous owners found out from the city about the property line issue. I have since confirmed with the city.

[CJH]

Talk to a lawyer.

Its possible to pursue it, but unlikely much will come of it. My Father in Law had a similar issue (known water issues that weren't disclosed), went to court, and got squat. Basically, the judge said you buy a house as is. He could have had a bad judge, but something to think about. You might be able to threaten and settle for something out of court.

The property is a little different, unless they had some type of easement/agreement. Somebody had to tell them it was OK. Not like you wake up one day and there is all that stuff on your property.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

The property is a little different, unless they had some type of easement/agreement. Somebody had to tell them it was OK. Not like you wake up one day and there is all that stuff on your property.

The neighbors house was built prior to ours (1998 vs. 2004). Previous to our house being built there was another house on the property with a very elderly woman living there. Wether the neighboring structures were built on our property on purpose with hopes the elderly women would not realize or not it I do not know. However, my guess is that it was NOT intentional. As far as the city is aware there are no easements granted to the neighboring property and if there were, that would need to appear in the property discription which none do.

I really do not know what to do. Origianlly when I found out, it appeared that it was a very small portion of the property, like maybe 25 sq ft. But now that I have taken the 100' tape out and quickly measured where I believe the lot line is I think the encroachment is closer to about 600 sq ft or more.

I know that the first thing I really need to do is have the property surveyed.

[RIPN LIPS]

There should be a property disclosure form and it should have info. on the property or it should be check as-is. If its as-is and you signed it you bought it as-is. If its not then they are required to disclose that info. I would get a lawyer. As far as the property line all you have to do is have a surveyed done that is on your dime then the problem is solved. Your probably not going to be making any friends by doing this.

[pike doctor]

Sounds like your attic could use a little more insulation and ventalation. You should get in there once and see if the sheathing on the roof is rotten. If that much water has come through over a couple years it could be getting serious. The snow this year is putting a lot of weight up there and you wouldnt want your roof to collapse from rotten wood.

You need to have cool air comming in your soffits and pushing the warm air out the roof vents near the peak. You may not have enough of either to keep the air moving. If you dont have enough insullation warm air is seeping into the attic and it could be trapped up there and it is melting the snow on your roof and when it hits the cold eves it freezes causing the ice dam and water to back up. You may have to start dealing with mold if you arent careful.

You may have to consider a reroof now (could be cheaper in the long run), but you may be able to get away with adding ventalation and insullation.

I would contact some other real estate people and ask them. Your agent may not have your best interest at stake since they already sold the home. Call a lawyer too. Get some free advice. It sounds like it could get really expensive for you. A cheap roof these days runs around 10k I would not want to be stuck with that.

[pike doctor]

If you have regular turtle roof vents check them and see if they are packed full of bird nest. Some of the cheaper plastic types allow birds to make their nest in the vent.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

Your probably not going to be making any friends by doing this.

Ya I know....... This is why I have no idea what to do. I don't want to move into a neighborhood and become "that guy", but I also don't want to pay property taxes for someone else to use my property as there own. I really just want to figure out the appropriate way to handle this, and hopefully maintain a good relationship with the neighbor.

It's funny because where I grew up, very rural Michigan, I grew up on a 2500 acre cash crop farm and a 180 acre hobby farm. Most of the the people in 10 square miles were family and the only fences were for livestock. Never thought I would be so concerned over less than a tenth of an acre. But when you only have 4 tenths to start with it feels like a whole lot more.

As far as the roof goes, ya, I have been up in the attic a few times. For the most part everything still looks solid. However at a minimum I will need to tear out some insulation to make sure everything is dry under it. The house has a a really bad roof line for creating ice dams at one location. So the plan is this summer to either build a false roof over that area or to reconstruct the existing roof in a different layout.

Thanks for the replies all, I appreciate it. This is the first house I have ever owned and these two issues have really been weighing on me a lot.

[pike doctor]

you should post some pictures, we might be able to give you a better idea of what is going on.

[BoxMN]

For ice dams, at least for now, get a heat tape and just lay it in the valleys, and coming down OVER the edge. That will create a hollow tunnel for any water to escape from. Works great, and easy to do. Then do a true fix on it over the summer.

Regarding the property line. I sort of know what you mean. I have a tiny bit of my cabin property that I think the neighbor thinks is his. Actually, he knows it is not, but it is just stuff like his grill and clothes line tied to my tree, etc., since his house is so close to property line. I found out that he cannot ever claim it as his, as some might say, just since "he used it". Property lines are property lines unless some exchange and legal paperwork took place. So for me it doesn't matter up there. But I can see where on smaller lot it is different - one reason I got a corner lot here in city, so I only have one neighbor

edit - BTW, a good frind of mine did take a previosu owner to court over water damage from ice dams and the previous owner lying on the disclosure, and he won. The guy had to pay for repairs and previous damage. This was in City of Saint Paul. So it can happen.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

BoxMN - I couldn't get my reply out before you edited your post. The basketball court is concrete and about 1 1/2 car stalls in size. The fact that it is concreted definitely makes this a more difficult issue to handle and still come out with good neighborly relations. Their youngest child is a senior in highschool so maybe they don't use it as much as they have in past years and they will just offer up a great remedy. I too, am on a corner lot. I guess I didn't put much thought into getting a corner lot, but I like it.

I believe I have the ice dams temporarily fixed for the remainder of the winter. However, when I get home one day with day light left i will take pictures of the roof line. I will try from the attic too, but not sure how those will turn out.

[walleyeseeker]

I would talk to a lawyer about the disclosure problem. I have a couple of friends in the realty business and both told me that when this law about disclosure changed, it became fraud not to disclose problems. As I understand it, this applies to the relocation companies also. As far as the property lines go, I would talk to the neighbors before getting a surveyor. Most people would take less offense to a discussion versus being told they are in the wrong.

[Tom7227]

When you bought the property was a title insurance company involved and did you buy an owners policy? It is very common if there is financing on the property for a title insurance policy to be issued. That policy says that the title company insures that the title is clear and that there are no defects in the title such as the encroachment by the neighbor. However, the policy is issued in favor of the lender. If you bought an owners policy then you're covered and that company would have to take action to clear things up. There is a period of time - 30 years maybe - where a failure to clear things up means that the title to the piece question goes to the person that has been encroaching. Bottom line is that you need to at least put the people on notice that you know of the problem to protect your own interests. If/when you sell the issue will come up if people do their work properly and you'll have to do something then. I'd start with a conversation, follow up with a certified letter, and then decide how far you want to push it. You may need to start a legal action and that could become an expensive PITA.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

As far as the property lines go, I would talk to the neighbors before getting a surveyor. Most people would take less offense to a discussion versus being told they are in the wrong.

Ya, I have been thinking that talking with them about where they think the line is first is a good idea. If we disagree then I can let them know that I was thinking about getting a survey done. Which I will pay for wholly myself and not ask for them to pay for a portion.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

When you bought the property was a title insurance company involved and did you buy an owners policy? quote]

Yes

[SkunkedAgain]

It's been a few years since I last read about it, but the Cartway Law is I think what BoxMN is referring to. Please do your own research, but if I remember, it just says that if the only way to access a property is through someone else's property and there is an established path (cart way in the old days), after a certain period of time there can be a claim to keep the path open.

Since your situation deals with an encroachment and not property access, I don't think that the Cartway Law applies. However, you certainly have clear right to your own property and that should be first discussed with your neighbor in a neighborly way (Hey - what kind of a deal did you have worked out with the previous owner about your basketball court?). If need be, then you can get either a private survey or ask the city to do it. Lawyers would be the last thing, but as Tom7227 stated, you need to establish your rights so that this doesn't bite you in the rear when you try to sell the house and property.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

Title insurance should cover this. I've had this issue come up twice and they have. I'd recommend contacting the title company to tell them you have an encroachment. If you aren't satisfied with their answer, you'll probably have to talk with a real estate attorney.

Regarding the disclosure issue, in MN sellers have 2 options:

-Provide buyer with a property disclosure statement

-Provide buyer with an alternative disclosure statement

Within that alternative disclosure, buyer an seller can agree to 'waive' the statutory requirement of a property disclosure...and this is what the majority of relocation companies and banks do, along with requiring an "as-is" addendum. You'll have to go back through your documentation to see what you have. Again, you may have to seek the advice of a competent real estate attorney.

[Jackpine Rob]

There is a period of time - 30 years maybe - where a failure to clear things up means that the title to the piece question goes to the person that has been encroaching.

Its a 15 year statute of limitations on adverse possession.

You should have received an Owner's Policy of Title Insurance with your original recorded deed after closing. Pull that out, and in the policy you will find what what you need to do to make a claim. Typically you are required to contact the underwriter (and not the title agent you actually closed with) in order to get the ball rolling.

As for the disclosure items and the encroachment issues, you really might want to get a legal opinion for a real estate attorney. What we have to offer here on Fishing Minnesota is all well and good, but this thread and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

Sorry for the late response... My wife gave birth to our first child and it has been a hectic two weeks.

jackpine Rob - You are right I do need to and am planning on contacting a real estate lawyer just in case. Now that the snow pack is lessening I was able to measure off from the opposite corner where I can find the stake. By myself using a 100' tape, the neighbor is utilizing about an 18 foot swath of my property. That is too much.

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I am going to approach the neighbor about it before going any further. I want to give neighborly communication a chance before trying the law approach. I am going to discuss with a lawyer, just to get a better understanding of the situation.

Again, thanks all.

[MN Shutterbug]

I wouldn't ever hire your realtor. They shoud have advised having the property lines confirmed and also, they should have recommended a home inspector. We just sold our house and will be moving into a different one in just a couple weeks. It's really amazing all the issues a licensed home inspector can find. My brother in law bought an older house 10 years ago from a distant relative. That was a big mistake. He didn't hire an inspector and just last year, had to invest almost $30K due to the foundation caving in. The $275 inspection fee might have saved him big time.

Good luck.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

I wouldn't ever hire your realtor. They shoud have advised having the property lines confirmed and also, they should have recommended a home inspector. We just sold our house and will be moving into a different one in just a couple weeks. It's really amazing all the issues a licensed home inspector can find. My brother in law bought an older house 10 years ago from a distant relative. That was a big mistake. He didn't hire an inspector and just last year, had to invest almost $30K due to the foundation caving in. The $275 inspection fee might have saved him big time.

Good luck.

Very good point. I can't think of a single home that I've sold that my inspector hasn't found at least 5x's his inspection fee in minor issues (now) that could turn into major issues down the road (many times his inspection fee). Always hire a home inspector.

[WallEYES]

Simple solution.... Your real estate agent and the company mis-represented you and your family....sue them both. Relocation company or not a disclosure about the property is required and the option to have your home inspected was never given to you and if you have a septic system it is req'd to be certified by a licensed professional under rules 7080. My advice to you is hire a good real estate lawyer and take them to the cleaners with their pants on the ground.

[Itsa Pole Bender]

Not sure if I gave the impression that I did not have a home inspection performed, but just in case I misrepresented.... we did have a home inspection performed.

I/we are still trying to figure out what exactly we will do next. We have a six week old son at home and he has kind of put everything else on hold for the moment.

We have since had the property corners staked, which influenced another neighbor that is having problems with the one I mentioned to get her property lines staked also. Appears they like taking over their neighbors property as their own.

[Tom7227]

A friend just told me at lunch that at his cabin a new owner had a survey done and suddenly 6 feet of 'his' yard was 'theirs' claiming that the new GPS equipment is more accurate than the old stuff and that the old markers now don't mean anything. Seems to my very simple mind that things can't change that much. Any surveyors out there that have insight?