So much for the floor mat.........

[CJH]

Finally someone had a clear enough thought process to pop it in Neutral and get it to a dealer. Guess what, no floormats installed in the car. More evidence that is not the cause:

Toyota Avalon displays unintended acceleration without floor mat

01/15/2010, 3:26 PM

By Mark Kleis

In a rather bizarre instance, a driver reportedly began to experience unintended acceleration from his Toyota Avalon and was able to drive the car to a nearby dealer with the vehicle still displaying wide open throttle, despite having the floormat removed. Dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge.

According to a report from The Safety Record, on December 29, 2009, the driver of a 2007 Toyota Avalon experienced a bizarre case of sudden and unintended acceleration while driving on the highway, just miles from a local Toyota dealer. The driver managed to switch the vehicle between Neutral and Drive multiple times, while en route to the dealer in order to show the dealer the problem as it was still occurring.

The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.

This incident was apparently not the first for the driver, either, who had been to the dealer before about the problem. The first time the unintended acceleration occurred, the driver was able to slow the vehicle with the brakes and switch the vehicle into neutral – where the engine continued to hit maximum rpms. At the time of the first incident, dealer diagnostics revealed no problems in the computer.

The dealer eventually offered to replace the throttle body, accelerator pedal and associated sensors free of charge for the driver after the second incident.

This incident may prove to be a crucial step in finding the true cause of the many reported cases of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. Toyota began its largest-ever recall in 2009 to replace the floor mats and accelerator pedals in over 3.8 million vehicles that could experience unintended acceleration. Critics and survivors of unintended acceleration cases argued that the problem was not a result of the floor mats or accelerator pedals, but instead insist that the computer controlling the acceleration of the vehicle is at fault.

The Safety Record also reported on a one-car crash that occurred in Dallas, Texas the day after Christmas involving a Toyota Avalon. According to the accident report, the vehicle inexplicably left the road and ended up crashing through a fence, and landing upside down in a pond – killing all four occupants. The floor mats were found in the trunk of the car – ruling out the possibility of the floor mat causing the accident.

The official cause of the Dallas crash has not yet been determined.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Quote:

where the engine continued to hit maximum rpms.

That is the part i would like to know. Was it hitting its rev limiter in which the engine would rev up and down rapidly in its limited range or was it holding steady at 7 to 8k rpm?

[lawdog]

Jer isn't that motor going to be shot if its maxing out the rpms with no load on it like that???

[CJH]

You'd think they would replace the engine with the rest of it.

I sure as heck would demand they do it.

You'd think this would be a bigger issue/more urgent considering there are people still DYING from it!

[deadeye]

The driver managed to switch the vehicle between Neutral and Drive multiple times, while en route to the dealer in order to show the dealer the problem as it was still occurring.

Bye bye transmission! Neutral drops are really good for it. Might as well have given the person a new car.

Im also kinda curious if it was holding steady, or going off the rev limiter too. It would be interesting to see what the tps is reading at for % while that is happening.

Defective sensor? Computer reading the sensor wrong? Or computer not even taking into account what the sensor is reading? Interesting problem.

[jeffreyd]

im surprised the computer even let it go into neutral with rpms maxed. i would be demanding a new car not an engine or trans.

[Scott K]

i know on Fords, if you are driving down the road and shift into neutral, it will have a enginre rev limiter.

[fishinarc]

If this is a cable less throttle pedal the computer has everthing to do with the amount the pedal is pressed % wise and would have many other sensors that would have a factor.

[LMITOUT]

TORRANCE, Calif., January 21, 2010 -- Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc, today announced it would recall approximately 2.3 million vehicles to correct sticking accelerator pedals on specific Toyota Division models. This action is separate from the on-going recall of approximately 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to reduce the risk of pedal entrapment by incorrect or out of place accessory floor mats. Approximately 1.7 million Toyota Division vehicles are subject to both separate recall actions.

“In recent months, Toyota has investigated isolated reports of sticking accelerator pedal mechanisms in certain vehicles without the presence of floor mats,” said TMS Group Vice President Irv Miller. “Our investigation indicates that there is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, in rare instances, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position. Consistent with our commitment to the safety of our cars and our customers, we have initiated this voluntary recall action.”

Toyota’s accelerator pedal recall is confined to the following Toyota Division vehicles:

• 2009-2010 RAV4,

• 2009-2010 Corolla,

• 2009-2010 Matrix,

• 2005-2010 Avalon,

• 2007-2010 Camry,

• 2010 Highlander,

• 2007-2010 Tundra,

• 2008-2010 Sequoia

No Lexus Division or Scion vehicles are affected by this recall action. Also not affected are Toyota Prius, Tacoma, Sienna, Venza, Solara, Yaris, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, Land Cruiser and select Camry models, including all Camry hybrids.

The condition is rare, but can occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and, in certain conditions, the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position. Toyota is working quickly to prepare the correction remedy.

In the event that a driver experiences an accelerator pedal that sticks in a partial open throttle position or returns slowly to idle position, the vehicle can be controlled with firm and steady application of the brakes. The brakes should not be pumped repeatedly because it could deplete vacuum assist, requiring stronger brake pedal pressure. The vehicle should be driven to the nearest safe location, the engine shut off and a Toyota dealer contacted for assistance.

[CJH]

I guess Toyota finally woke up and decided they finally had to address this. Its only been 2000 accidents and 25 deaths.

Very Shady. Can you say Class Action Law Suit??!

[Jeremy airjer W]

I guess Toyota finally woke up and decided they finally had to address this. Its only been 2000 accidents and 25 deaths.

Very Shady. Can you say Class Action Law Suit??

How many Chevy trucks burst into flames after an accident because they mounted the tanks outside the fuel rails?

How many explorers rolled over because there tires failed?

How many fieros burst into flames out on the highway?

How long did it take Ford to figure out a solution to there brake switch problem that was burning down vehicles?

How quick and voluntarily did the manufacturers want to address any of those issues? Ford nor Firestone will admit they where wrong to this day! Somebody has to be at fault, THATS SHADY!

It takes time for a manufacturer to figure out the root of a problem, devise a solution, and implement that solution. Obviously they wouldn't be spending all that money dealing with carpet and floor mats if there wasn't some evidence that there was an issue.

We still don't know facts like mileage, condition of the vehicle, condition of the interior, etc. Are these parts worn out, abused, or influenced by factors that Toyota has no control over? Was there a design flaw, manufacturing error, or did the materials used not hold up as intended.

Where there signs that something was wrong that the owner ignored? For example I couldn't tell you how many times I have pulled in vehicle with sticky throttles only to have the customer question what we are talking about and decline the repair, or they come in with brakes grinding and they have worn one side of the rotor down to the fins, or they come in for a grinding noise that turns out to be a wheel bearing that has gotten so bad that it has started grinding into the knuckle, or vehicles that get towed in for broken front end parts. There's no way you can tell me there where no warning signs for broken front end parts or any of these issues yet they are ignored everyday!

This latest announcement is the next step in the resolution of this problem. IMO they have been dealing with this issue in a pretty timely manor compared to other manufacturers issues!!

[deadeye]

I almost forgot about the Firestone flips.

Ya compared to the other manufacturers it isn't any worse than anything else out there. (it goes without saying that doesn't mean that its ok that people crashed and died) However, in the grand scheme of things Toyota has been doing a pretty decent job of keeping people safe in their cars IMO. From crash prevention to crash protection.

They took a bit longer than they should have IMO to come up with a fix and they weren't as up front about it as they could have been. With the resources they have it should have been a quicker fix.

At the same time, the thing I like about Japanese companies like them is that they will do research until they are blue in the face, run models, test the product, ect to find the problem and fix it. It won't just be a quick hack job fix. The problem will be solved.

On another note, it might not be all on their end too. Its speculation on my part, but they could have gotten a bad product unknowingly. There could have been a defective alloy or something like that. Trying to hunt down something like that is a true nightmare, especially when people's well being is involved.

[CJH]

I am going to disagree with you there. There was multitudes of evidence out there, yet they continued to blame the floor mats.

It finally took a guy driving one to a dealership with it happening and it getting on the news for them to do something serious about it.

Every manufacturer is going to have problems in engineering/manufacturing/etc..I agree with you completely on that. And almost ALL of them acted shady in one way or another.

I guess we just disagree on the handling of the situation. Here's the report from Nightline:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9630823

[Jeremy airjer W]

I think they get treated unfairely right of the bat because they are not an american company?

I think things like this have happened so often with U.S. manufacturers that we are not surprised that it happens anymore.

I do feel bad for those who lost there lives because of this problem as well as all those who lost there lives do to a manufacturing inadequacy. It should never happen but unfortunately it does and it happens to all manufacturers at some point.

Far more people have been killed on the highways due to there own fault or the fault of another driver. Should Manufacturers be held liable for selling vehicles to stupid people?

[CJH]

No way - Toyota and Honda are the media darlings. The big three get hammered by the media. (often by their own doing) If I see one more story about the Prius I am going to vomit.

I hope they make things right for the victims sake and so nobody else gets hurt.

I agree, you can't keep stupid people from harming themselves, doesn't matter what they are doing/using (cars/guns/etc...).

[LMITOUT]

Originally Posted By: CJH

I guess Toyota finally woke up and decided they finally had to address this. Its only been 2000 accidents and 25 deaths.

Very Shady. Can you say Class Action Law Suit??

How many Chevy trucks burst into flames after an accident because they mounted the tanks outside the fuel rails?

....and there WAS a class action lawsuit and payments WERE made to owners of said trucks.

Quit being such a Toyota apologist.

[Duffman]

The anti-yota chatter has been most comical over the years. I've been driving Toyota trucks for the last twenty, so I've paid attention to what the naysayers have been saying. Funny, the Tundra wasn't even considered in any comparison ads of the Big Three when it came out. When they started to pay attention, it was already too late. The 2nd generation Tundra slammed that door even more. That company knows what it's doing, there's a reason every sporting event seems to be brought to you by Toyota, and that reason is money.

You know, five years ago I got laughed off of these boards for predicting that one of the Big Three would go bankrupt. And I would guess if Chevy has any more lawsuits and payouts, it's us taxpayers that will get stuck with that bill.

[LMITOUT]

So was the second generation Tundra the one with the bad camshaft/defective engine or the one with the frame that rusted through? I always forget...

[CJH]

For the record I wasn't hating on Toyota, just the way they have handled their land propelled human rocket problem.

The Tundra is a great truck, but there are other great ones out there also. People can debate this all they want.

One of the major reasons the Big Three were in financial trouble was because of the Unions and Healthcare - things subsidized by the Japanese Govt (the Japanese bailout). Not exactly apples to apples. GM is projected to be profitable this year now that they have shed PART of the health care problem and even though this still have to deal with unions and legacy costs. Ford isn't in Bankruptcy. Hopefully Dodge works well with Fiat.

This isn't a US vs Japan thing.

[Duffman]

So was the second generation Tundra the one with the bad camshaft/defective engine or the one with the frame that rusted through? I always forget...

Keep on mocking, notice how the Tundra is no longer in your rear view mirror? You're a Chevy guy, aren't ya LMIT, it's always the Chevy guys. The Mopar and Ford guys seem to know better than to mock.

CJH..... The reason for my prediction years ago was due to the health care stuff. My best friends grandma still gets full benefits from Ford, her husband retired 45 years ago. There's no way they can keep that up. My retort wasn't aimed at you, LMIT took the bait.

[LMITOUT]

Typical elitist Toyota owner....

[Duffman]

[Jeremy airjer W]

So was the second generation Tundra the one with the bad camshaft/defective engine or the one with the frame that rusted through? I always forget...

That was a problem with the early 5.7. The cams couldn't handle the horsepower! That problem was addressed ASAP and there hasn't been a problem since. Unforuneately Your GM will continue to have repeated intake failures, repeated leaking axle seals, repeated fuel pump failures, repeated 4x4 failures, repeated front end failures, and any number of other common failures that will never get resolved.

The frame failures wher the tacomas and I have only seen one that had the issue, The Tundra has an issue with the spare tire carrier that rusts away, it bolts to the frame. To my knowledge there is no frame issue with the Tundra.

As far as the camparisons I get a kick out of the GM comercial that compares fuel economy of the Tundra with the fuel economy of the Silverado Hybrid which only gets 1 MPG more on the freeway than its non hybrid counterpart. Once you look at the motors they are comparing its no contest as far as power, torque, fuel economy etc.

I always like these discussions but lets remember to keep them fun! GM guys will always be GM guys and the same with all the other faithful followers!!

[Duffman]

Jeez.... easy there airjer, we're just funnin. LMIT knows I'd be more than happy to yank his truck out of the ditch. You know... The one he drives in after Farve throws another touchdown this weekend.

Way to go LMIT, you got 'jer all riled up.

[Scott K]

Lmits a troll