end of the debate? rage vs fixed

[Big Buck Buster]

Same thing happened to me last year on a doe I shot towards the end of the season. Shot her in the spine, but my shot went in so far that I couldn't get the broad head out, and had to unscrew the arrow at the time. I found out that the only reason the broad head went in so far was it just happened to hit right between the vertebrates.

[deerminator]

I believe it was the editor of Peterson's Bowhunting that once said in one of his columns that despite all the hype over types of broadheads, cutting diameters, and sharpness factors, that a cereal spoon duck taped to the end of an arrow with the right shot placement would do the job. I'm inclined to worry more about shot placement than I am the type of broadhead on the end of the arrow.

[harvey lee]

You are totally correct on shot placement. If we all keyed on the shot and practice and not what broadhead is the best, we would more than likely find more deer that are shot.

[Bear55]

deerminator you are 100% correct! we get to hung up (myself included) in what we are using and why. I might have to try that spoon trick, although it might be a little hard to get them to fly strait.

[eyeguy 54]

I believe it was the editor of Peterson's Bowhunting that once said in one of his columns that despite all the hype over types of broadheads, cutting diameters, and sharpness factors, that a cereal spoon duck taped to the end of an arrow with the right shot placement would do the job. I'm inclined to worry more about shot placement than I am the type of broadhead on the end of the arrow.

lol now that made me chucle. Lottsa videos on the net on broadheads. Fun to watch them.

[bluegillin]

I was mistaken, it was not a water buffalo spine that the rage was tested and failed to penetrate, it was the ribs of a water buffalo. Which is even more of a concern than the spine.

Also more on the angle testing of the rage broadhead. Dr. Ashby noted that on angle testing at 25 to 45 degrees its is more common than not that the mechanical blade failed to deploy properly, which resulted in the arrow to cart wheel off the animal, causing more than a flesh wound.

[Bear55]

I was mistaken, it was not a water buffalo spine that the rage was tested and failed to penetrate, it was the ribs of a water buffalo. Which is even more of a concern than the spine.

Also more on the angle testing of the rage broadhead. Dr. Ashby noted that on angle testing at 25 to 45 degrees its is more common than not that the mechanical blade failed to deploy properly, which resulted in the arrow to cart wheel off the animal, causing more than a flesh wound.

Trust me the rage has no problems breaking ribs at any angle or on entry or exit, I speak from personal experience. I think someone said earlier that the Dr. has his own line of broadheads, I guess if I had my own broadheads I would try and discreditone of the most popular heads on the market too. If you aren't too hung up on brand names you might want to listen to deerminator and use a spoon. It doesn't matter which broadhead you use as long as your shot placement is on.

[bluegillin]

Dr. Ed Ashby does not have his own line of broadheads. His name is on one.

"Disclaimer! Dr. Ed Ashby graciously allowed us to use his name on this broadhead with one condition. He insisted that we make it clear to our customers that he receives no compensation for the use of his name on our broadhead whatsoever. His goal is to educate the world on what kinds of arrows and broadheads best penetrate big game animals. He receives no compensation for any of his research but shares the results freely. He wants to educate bowhunters everywhere on what works best on big game animals so the animals may be harvested in the most efficient manner possible. It's actually more about the animal than the bowhunter. We all owe a great debt to Dr. Ashby for his significant contribution to bowhunting."

[fishmon]

Quote:

Also more on the angle testing of the rage broadhead. Dr. Ashby noted that on angle testing at 25 to 45 degrees its is more common than not that the mechanical blade failed to deploy properly, which resulted in the arrow to cart wheel off the animal, causing more than a flesh wound.

This was my contention all along.

[deerminator]

Vister, can you try it one more time with a cereal spoon? Actually, I may have to try this before the year is out for the heck of it now. I'm willing to sacrifice the arrow and one of my wife's cereal spoons and I have plenty of scrapwood and/or old logs. Maybe not this weekend but within the next month or so. Has good time written all over it.

[Bear55]

Quote:

Also more on the angle testing of the rage broadhead. Dr. Ashby noted that on angle testing at 25 to 45 degrees its is more common than not that the mechanical blade failed to deploy properly, which resulted in the arrow to cart wheel off the animal, causing more than a flesh wound.

This was my contention all along.

So you guys are saying that mechanicals fail over 50% of the time? I bet a lot of mechanical shooters would be suprised to hear this number. I am even willing to bet that spoon shooters have better odds then that.

[bluegillin]

I think what Dr. Ashby is trying to say is that mechanicals have a added level of complexity and even though they fail to deploy properly, that doesn't mean that the arrow would cartwheel every time resulting in a non-lethal shot.

I just noticed that vister kindly posted his results of an experiment he performed. I felt that his experiment was flawed. Dr. Ashby is "the" leading expert on broadhead lethality. Show me someone that has more experience testing broadheads and I will gladly entertain it.

I also agree 100% that shot placement is the most important criteria in lethality, but broadhead type is important.

[Bear55]

Really we are just splitting hairs here, I can gaurentee I can shoot a deer with ANY broadhead on the market! And I am pretty confident I could get one with a spoon with a little practice. For crying out loud the Indians did it with a two sticks, a few feathers, some string, and a rock. I'm pretty suprised the "leading expert on broadhead lethality" would call one head inferior to the other when basically they all do great job.

[96trigger]

I bought the rages this year, thanks, consider me on the band wagon. If they don't perform, I'll let you know.

[vister]

how can you honestly say my experiment was "flawed" i took a mechanical and fixed broadhead, shot it at a target, and mechanical went through, unscathed. regardless of grain, you have the same issue if you hit the shoulderblade of a mature deer. rotating the head 90 degrees on a bone can make a huge difference to! the only difference is, the mechanical went through. if those exact same results take place on a deer, i guess the rage would equal meat in the freezer...wouldn't it! the shoulder of a live deer is by NO means as tough as a 1" thick slab of dry oak!! if bone was that tough, then the tested fixed head would equal lost deer EVERY time

[InTheNorthwoods]

I have heard far to many horror stories about both fixed blade broadheads and expandables not killing animals. Thats why I only shoot field points now. I never have to worry about my "field points" flying like my "field points.

[fishmon]

Next time you shoot a deer save the shoulder and run your test again, that might be interesting.

[96trigger]

I also agree 100% that shot placement is the most important criteria in lethality, but broadhead type is important.

[sticknstring]

Now that I have a few fresh shoulder blades off a mature deer, maybe I'll conduct a little test myself. I've got Slick Tricks, Montecs, Snuffer SS's, Thunderheads, Steelhead XL's, Bloodrunners, Shuttle T's, and possibly a few others laying around. Heck I think I even have a Rage 2 blade to make it interesting! Maybe shoot from the deck at a slight quartering away angle at about 22 yds? OR I can ship the shoulder blades to Vister and he play around some more!

[lovethegitch]

I saw a buddys kid kill a doe with a rage last year. the hit was far from any vitals (brisket by leg) and that deer bled out wow!

yesturday he got a good hit on a doe with his rage and recovered it easliy. he has been trying to get me to switch for several years but i wont give up on my muzzys because i am stubborn. i am very inpressed with the rage. mabey someday i will try them!

the beast is dead long live the beast.

[vister]

sounds good! i'm laid off and have all the time in world! unfortunately, weather isn't cooperating for a sit in the stand today, and the next few don't look so good either. stick, in order for the test to be fair, you would probably have to send the entire skeleton, and i'll piece it together, wrap it with plate steel, and let the testing begin!

northwoods, might as well shoot fieldpoints! they open everytime. and i have needed one follow-up shot while bowhunting, and a field point did the job which out penetrate every head made! how long till the disagreements flare up on that!

the only reason u cant use field points, is because broaheads produce more hemmoraging to tissue, causing more blood loss, and a quicker, humane harvest. a field point would make the same hole as a bullet, so to speak, but without that kind of energy, you don't get the shock to the tissue a bullet does. a mushrooming bullet disipates energy to vital organs, causing just as much harm to them as the physical damage.

[sticknstring]

I've still got the ribcage in the back of my truck... was going to dump it tonight but I can put it a box and send her off to ya if you wanna cover the shipping!

[propster]

Got a great piece of advice from the guy who helped develop the Rage, and worked out the mechanics of it. Unfortunately he doesn't have anything to do with their blade sharpness or quality control. Anyway, he takes a carbide sharpener (the small crotch type) and sharpens the blades by hand. Unfortunately they're not using a set screw anymore to hold the blades in so they're not as easy to remove the blades and sharpen the whole length. But he gets about the rear 3/4 sharp and that helps. The front part up near the tip he can't get to. I'm going to try it. Can't hurt. I know what they'll do when they're halfway sharp and hit in the boiler room, can't wait to see how good they work when they're actually sharp.

[vister]

i take mine apart, even just out of the package to sharpen them. clamp on to them with a small vice grip, on an angle, and push it down the length of a very fine sharpening stone. only one edge though! the vice grip helps me hold a consistent angle, and man, just after 7 or 8 strokes, do them blades get sharp!!

my only complaint on rage is the fact that they really aren't that sharp when new. sharp blades slice a bit better than a semi-sharp blade, even at high speed. if anyone is bored, or not, i recommend trying to sharpen them.

[uplander]

So far it doesn't really seem to be the end of the debate!