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pumper317

Dokken's Dog

22 posts in this topic

hey guys,

I got a big question that i need to get answered. Its about my 9 month old lab that i got from dokken's back in october of last year.

The question is do i let someone pay to get her trained out there, with the catch that they get to take her hunting for 2 or 3 weekends a year?

I know it seems like a no brainer yes with a well trained dog for the price of a couple weekends, but it is just off to me. My father in law is offering to pay for her traing witht the allowence of getting to take her pheasant huntng 2 or 3 times a year. He isnt a big hunter, and i really am but am trying to work out my hunting schedule to accomidate a family and living.

My pup would be gone for 10 weeks, and in that time would learn a ton, and be way better than i could ever train her, but i feel like i am losing something in letting him pay for that... besides my pride.

HELP!!!! What do you all think???

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Sounds like a good deal to me... Dad pays for the training and has a dog to hunt with that will obey, you look good in his eyes, the dog gets out for a few more trips a year doing what she loves best....

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You might lose a little loyalty from the dog. My dog, though not a lab, only hunts for me and that is a special feeling.

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I'm sure you could get a really well trained dog. But the way i see it is what good is a well trained dog if you dont know how it was trained. All most people need in a dog is basic obedience. And if you cant teach a dog basic obedience in 5-10 minutes a day then I dont think you should have a dog at all. My dog will do all sorts of commands/hand signals for me because i built that bond and connection through training. If I take him to my parents house he barely listens to them.

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Which proves the reasoning that sending a dog to a trainer makes sense! I want my dog to listen to anyone who gives it a command. When out hunting, I wnat them to deliver a bird to the nearest guy... I want them to stay in range on anyone's command, sit, stay for a buddy in the duck blind, my kids, my extended family and even my neighbors should all give a command a get compliance.

I've trained many dogs, did it as a part time job for a while too. I've trained gun dogs and I've trained competition dogs. I've even trained some solely to be pets for clients... guess what? There was no lack of loyalty and the dogs were conditioned to obey the 'command' and not 'the person'. Loyalty is forged through trust and friendship and you can get that working your dog even if someone else did the groundwork.

A well trained dog that has been trained by a pro is light years ahead as a field companion than a dog that has been haphazardly trained. I know many, many field trial competitors have their dogs trained by a pro and they hunt them in the off-season. Those dogs are not dis-loyal and I can guarntee that many of the owners have no way of knowing what went into the training to get their dogs to the level they are at... but guess what in the end they only need to know when to correct them and how to correct them... not what got them there.

Good Luck!

Ken

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I was thinking the same thing when I had my lab trained with not having her for 2 months, but after it was all done, it was well worth it. She listens so well, not just in the field but around the house. Compared to friends labs that don't listen at all. I was very happy.

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Thanks labs4me and huntfishtv. You guys gave me insight on the subject. I really appreciate it.

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I'm sure you could get a really well trained dog. But the way i see it is what good is a well trained dog if you dont know how it was trained. All most people need in a dog is basic obedience. And if you cant teach a dog basic obedience in 5-10 minutes a day then I dont think you should have a dog at all. My dog will do all sorts of commands/hand signals for me because i built that bond and connection through training. If I take him to my parents house he barely listens to them.

I guess i was a bit hasty to post what I meant. My dog listens to my parents pretty well. Sit stay come are excellent. The advanced commands such as down, left, right with a hand signals the dog doesnt listen to or doesnt know what to do with because my parents do not how he was trained, do not use my manurisms, my tone of voice, etc.

I have a co-worker who trains dogs professionally on the side and she is completely against sending dogs off to be trained. What good are those commands unless you know how to execute them yourself. Its like owning car but not having any arms or legs to drive it.

Also, of course my dog will listen to me better since it is just me & him 5+ days a week. He get alot of socialization on the weekends but usually its just the two of us. I am a huge proponent of dog classes that involve the all the family memebers that way the people involved are trained on how to manage a dog. I would never send a dog off to be trained unless I can get advanced training on how the dog was trained. Otherwise it is wasted money.

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Originally Posted By: SDbowhunter
I'm sure you could get a really well trained dog. But the way i see it is what good is a well trained dog if you dont know how it was trained. All most people need in a dog is basic obedience. And if you cant teach a dog basic obedience in 5-10 minutes a day then I dont think you should have a dog at all. My dog will do all sorts of commands/hand signals for me because i built that bond and connection through training. If I take him to my parents house he barely listens to them.

I guess i was a bit hasty to post what I meant. My dog listens to my parents pretty well. Sit stay come are excellent. The advanced commands such as down, left, right with a hand signals the dog doesnt listen to or doesnt know what to do with because my parents do not how he was trained, do not use my manurisms, my tone of voice, etc.

I have a co-worker who trains dogs professionally on the side and she is completely against sending dogs off to be trained. What good are those commands unless you know how to execute them yourself. Its like owning car but not having any arms or legs to drive it.

Also, of course my dog will listen to me better since it is just me & him 5+ days a week. He get alot of socialization on the weekends but usually its just the two of us. I am a huge proponent of dog classes that involve the all the family memebers that way the people involved are trained on how to manage a dog. I would never send a dog off to be trained unless I can get advanced training on how the dog was trained. Otherwise it is wasted money.

You are confusing me here, Your co-worker professionally trains dogs on the side but then says she doesn't believe in sending a dog away to be trained.

That is a bit contradictive, don't you think? She must not have to many customers.

I am going to spent a day training with a pro in the next month so that I can become a better handler and I will get a chance to run every single dog on his truck. As LABS stated earlier, because of things like this each of these dogs will work for who ever puts their hand in on them when sent, and will listen to any command they give.

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I agree DB... a 'pro' trainer who doesn't think a dog should be sent away for training? I think if you're a pro, it's not on the side... I trained dogs on the side and never considered myself a 'pro'. A pro is one who does it as his career. An amatuer is somone who does it as a hobby or as a sideline.

To say you it's a waste of money to have a 'pro' train your dog unless you know how to do the training yourself is like me saying you shouldn't hire landscaping out to a pro... unless you know how I designed and installed everything in your yard and why. In the end, how you maintain it is of the utmost importance, not how it got there. Maintenance and the scheduling of maintennce is all that should be needed....much the same as dog training.

Because of my busy schedule, my 3 year old lab was almost all fully pro trained... come on over and see if I 'wasted' my money.

SD, Pride of what you achieve(d) with a dog by doing all the training yourself is a very nice feeling indeed, and for those with the skill, knowledge, time and where with all, will also achieve the same feeling of pride...but many thousands of owners and handlers recieve the same joy and pride in watching their dogs complete a given task crisply and cleanly without delay even after having their dogs trained by a pro.

Few pros will just have you pick up the dog without some guidance and instruction on what to work on and how to maintain what has been taught to your dog.

Good Luck!

Ken

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SDbowhunter you really shouldnt have to defend your self here. I understand what your saying here. Its what person wants out of a dog and thats just fine. There is nothing wrong with a profesionaly trained dog. I had mine pro trained too but I didnt send her off to be trained, I was always there next to her being shown what to do so I could train her out on the field when the trainer was not presant.

And it comes to hunting styles to. I like my dog in front of me not covering the same ground as other dogs. I hate it when other dogs just go willy nilly. The dog should hunt for one, Thats my opinion. I like it when my dog looks back to see where I'm at and makes sure I know where she is. I didnt train her to find birds for others,though she will go after any bird I tell her to. Now my breed of dog is totally differant from a lab, Large Munsterlander,

I just think there is a certain bond when your there for the training.

I didnt say or see anyone posting the dog was going to be disloyal. Just a little and thats where hunting styles and what you want you dog to do.

I also talked to a few professional trainer who accually prefer training with the owner for a better dog. Some say its aheadache to do so, but the dog comes out better in the end. Each trainer has there opinions I respecct them but I prefer hands on.

sorry duckbuster but I was refering to what SDbowhunter was saying

no disrespect intendid

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I have to agree with those that are in favor of pro trainers. I have not sent my dog to a pro trainer and he does well in the field and around the house. He is far from perfect and not even quite to the level I would prefer. I am not an experienced trainer and I do not know how to get results on the final finishing touches. I have some time scheduled at a trainer later this summer. I can't wait to see the results.

I agree completely with LABS with the landscaper analogy. I was think more along the lines of finishing my basement. I purchased the materials (pup) and studded in some walls (basic bird intro / obiedence) and left the sheetrocking, taping and mudding to the pros (more advanced training). I could have tried doing it myself, but I knew how it was probably going to turn out. I let a pro do it, so it turned out right in the end and all I have to do is maintain it now to keep it looking good.

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I would agree with alot that has been said above.

I have taken both of my labs to a professional to be trained and for what I want was definatly worth it.

To me it comes down to who the trainer is and knowing his style of training and what he is going to focus your dog on.

The way I prefer is command training, so that the dogs are trained to listen to anyone no matter who is giving it. If it's mom or the girlfriend the dog should respond. This gives you a great foundation for future work with the dog and sets the table to further advance your dogs training and potential to work it's way to that level of 'Elite' gun dogs.

Do research on trainers and find the one that you think will fit what most you are looking for.

smile

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From what I was reading I dont think anyone was against pro training I think it was sending the dog off verses hands on training with a trainer.

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This is what it boils down to!!! If you have the time and I mean realy have the time!!!!! And the knowlege to do it yourself.. then do it... If not, go with the pro and you know your dog will be worked with every day...You won't lose anything from your dog! Fact is with you not there the dog can stay focused on the training. I also have trained a dog or two and would like my dogs to hunt for anyone, and listen to anyone.. Sending it to a pro will give him the experince of listening to someone else..I say go with the pro, becase everyone has the best intentions for their dog but so few have the time and resources to get the job done!!! good luck .....uplander

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uplander

You hit another key point. It is not only about the time, but it is also about the resources. I live in town, so keeping lives birds for training is tricky. I also have a limited amount of private land to train on and it is either a distance away or not the best land / water to train on. Most pro trainers have access to plenty of birds and high quality training grounds.

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The question is do i let someone pay to get her trained out there, with the catch that they get to take her hunting for 2 or 3 weekends a year?

...but it is just off to me...

My pup would be gone for 10 weeks, and in that time would learn a ton, and be way better than i could ever train her, but i feel like i am losing something in letting him pay for that... besides my pride...

I don't think the original post was asking for opinions on the differences of professional or home schooled.

pumper317, You mention that your father-in-law isn't much of a hunter, is their some kind of hidden agenda that you are worried about? What do you feel you are losing by letting him pay for it? Would you let your father-in-law borrow your dog for 2 or 3 weekends a year if YOU paid for the training?

I believe going with your gut is usually best. You mentioned "it is just off to me." It sure seems there is more to the story.

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As I get older I realize that the opportunities to go out are limited in number. Having a dog that works well adds immeasurably to the experience. Having a dog that doesn't mind, or hunting with someone that has an untrained dog is a good way to ruin one of those limited experiences.

I also realize that I don't have the temperment to train a dog, don't have the knowledge, and can't come up with enough birds to do it correctly. Having the dog gone for 8 - 12 weeks one summer is a small price to pay for the years of enjoyment. Heck, if you get lonely you can go and visit the dog, and the trainer will probably spend some time training you how to deal with the dog when they're done.

You don't have to spend thousands of dollars and get a dog that could run in field trials. Getting the basic obedience down when the dog is 6 months old is one of the major keys. Get some of the materials on the top of this forum. Take your dog to a local obedience training so you get trained on how to train the dog. Then give strong consideration to letting the pro handle the final tune up.

If you do it right you will have 10 years of incredible experiences with the dog. Don't do it and you will waste all those opportunities, and maybe end up hunting alone because no one wants to be in the field with a dog that is flushing the birds wild or who won't retrieve.

Good luck, let the old man do the scholarship thing for the dog, and then both of you will enjoy years of service. Maybe he'll even take you on some of those trips he wants to go on. In fact his offer may be a back door way to opening you up to go along.

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I dont know what i meant about the comment, i guess you would have to be in my shoes. Maybe i am feeling like i will lose out on the satisfaction of training her, but i will gain the joy of watching her do what she is meant to do in a way that i want her to do it.

I dont have the spare change to send her anywhere right now i just bought a house, so it would be great to have her trained, with all the bells and whistles of fun for her. I will miss her for the 10 weeks, and so will my wife. I have decided to go with it and get her trained.

And to those of you who were questioning the lack of knowing what commands on my end... I plan to go down there a couple times to work with them and her. I will know what i want done, and tell them what commands i use.

Thanks to all for the words of wisdom... it helps to hear it from people who have gonme through this stuff.

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Where I am coming from is that if I spent the money for a professionally trained dog. I would want an animal that is a close to a field trial champion. I wouldn't know how to manage a field trial champion and maintain the dogs education.

If a person doesn't have time to properly train basic obediance I'd agree that sending the dog off is better then not doing anything with them. My only expirience with a professionally trained (sent away) dog was my parents Irish Setter which died when I was about 10 years old. I clearly remember her being a well mannered, gentle, dog that would come,sit, stay, pretty well and thats about it. She didn't have the slightest clue about hunting but knew she absolutely loved it. I remember her standing in the middle of the river running back and forth barking at ducks. At the time I dont think my parents had the know how to properly train/maintain the dog further.

All other dogs we had we took to classes which taught us more about training and got everyone in the family on the same page. These were much better hunting dogs. The lab I have now is the best dog I will ever own, I trained him myself. Everyone who has hunted with him has been throughly impressed. Is he perfect? No. But, he does everything I expect of him with my limited training expirence. The only way my dog could be any better is if I knew more about training.

The one thing I do know is consistency is key. Good luck with your dog. All dogs turn out great if you do your best to do your part no matter how your training was conducted.

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Which proves the reasoning that sending a dog to a trainer makes sense! I want my dog to listen to anyone who gives it a command. When out hunting, I wnat them to deliver a bird to the nearest guy... I want them to stay in range on anyone's command, sit, stay for a buddy in the duck blind, my kids, my extended family and even my neighbors should all give a command a get compliance.

I've trained many dogs, did it as a part time job for a while too. I've trained gun dogs and I've trained competition dogs. I've even trained some solely to be pets for clients... guess what? There was no lack of loyalty and the dogs were conditioned to obey the 'command' and not 'the person'. Loyalty is forged through trust and friendship and you can get that working your dog even if someone else did the groundwork.

A well trained dog that has been trained by a pro is light years ahead as a field companion than a dog that has been haphazardly trained. I know many, many field trial competitors have their dogs trained by a pro and they hunt them in the off-season. Those dogs are not dis-loyal and I can guarntee that many of the owners have no way of knowing what went into the training to get their dogs to the level they are at... but guess what in the end they only need to know when to correct them and how to correct them... not what got them there.

Good Luck!

Ken

I agree with Labs here. You won't loose any loyalty and if you don't have the time and know how to train it's a good deal for you. You will not loose any bonding. I used to foster dogs for second chance rescue. The dogs bonded with me within a day or two. It's how you treat an animal. Treat them right and they will bond with you just fine. I'm sure you already have a bond with her at her age. She will not forget that in two months. You will have a very well trained Dog when you get her back and hey, maybe you can go hunting with your father-in-law on some of theose weekends. I think it's a great offer and will be good for both you and your pup. I took in two foster dogs that became part of my family and were older. My shepard was 1 1/2 years and beagle was 7 months. You couldn't find more loyal dogs to our family. Again, don't worry about that, your dog will still be your dog, just with better mannars.

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i train my own dog(s) and its fun, frustrating, can help the bond, could hurt the bond(if you dont know what your doing), takes time, consistency, patience, and knowledge. If you do it right, self achievement and satifaction to your standards. If a pro does it the fun comes after training, the frustration, time, consistency, patience, and some knowledge is thrown out and your left with a well rounded dog according to the ability of the trainer you picked out.

using a pro I dont believe there is loyalty lost but more of a gain due to a more strict hunting style obedience. The dog is challenged by a pro challenger, he thinks better, he reacts better, and he understands better. pro knows how to react to alot of different situations and the learning curve of figuring out the situation is taken out. It is a command that is learned and the fact that the dog is not above any hunman being but yet a loyal obeyed servant, a tool.

can you do this all yourself? yes. its your knowledge that gets you to what you want. so in the end do you have all that it takes to get to where you want your dog to be, or do you work around your flaws or lack of knowledge and let it be? i do.

the only reason i do is because i want to get better at training. If you set your mind to it and do the research, and build experience, then one day it will get to where you want it. if you never do it yourself then your never gonna get the experience and knowledge of how it works and someone will have to do it for you.

this is all up to you. I see no problem with training yourself or letting the pros do it. Its all up to what you want. My dog is 15 months now and is working out well(to me). He's got a heart of gold but a stubborn brain. Lots of patience it takes to work with him. my biggest problem is the lady friend. i train, shes screws it up. This is another problem to deal. The pros have assistants that know what there doing, The lady friend or your buddy might not and might do everything you tell them not to or let the dog do whatever it wants to do. This is a hellava battle. its not easy erasing whats being engraved.

If i had the time and money i would probably let a pro train my dog and i would be present as much as possible to gain what knowledge i could. if i had the time, i would love to work with a pro and have him teach me how to train dogs better.

oh yeah, that old saying "all it takes is 5-10 minutes of training in the backyard a day".........thats your dogs time!!....the 5-10 minutes doesnt include you thinking about what you screwed up or what you need to do next, or the evil eye you and your dog cock at each other everytime you two pass.

im not refeuling the fire by any means..im just trhowing my two cents out there. take it for whatever its worth.

i hope it all works out with your dog and you and him share many good days in the field!

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      I also had him ask me when I was going to pay him for fishing with me. He typically got 80,000 dollars an hour for speaking. The same guy let out seven different swear words in one sentence when I failed to clear his back cast for him and he caught a tree.


      He also had an aversion to losing flies. He would go under water and crawl out in tree limbs to retrieve flies. This angler grew to be too high maintenance for me and I handed him off to a friend to entertain.  
      During the guide daze I learned how secretive trout anglers are. I swear they would give you their first born child before they would give you information on a stream.  A Midwest Flyfishing Magazine article I had written even caused an angler to knock on my front door to talk to me to voice his frustration with me publicizing “his” streams. 


      I had a featured article in American Angler magazine. The editor told me that good articles typically received at least 6-7 angry emails from anglers because of giving too much attention to "their" fishing area. The editor contacted me later and said I got 13 hate emails.


      I once had a client do so well he didn't have enough money with him to tip me adequately and he was a former employee of Gerber Knife company and he gave me eight high end knives he had new in their boxes as a tip.    
      I once had three rich guys fish with me all at once. They were talking about buying a medical supply company. The company was on the market for 750,000 dollars. They split the price in threes. Four years later they fished with me again and bragged they had just sold the company for 23 million.


      The majority of anglers I guided were excellent anglers and stand up good citizens. They were mostly from the Midwest.  A couple came from other places in the states and as far away as Germany and Italy.  The regulations in other countries are baffling I learned from my foreign clients.  No one ever got skunked when they went with me.


      I have had my glasses and cap ripped off by clients numerous times by clients in a hurry. I have been hooked in the hand, arm, ear, face and head. When you guide you must watch and not fish yourself.  It felt like going to a gold mine without a shovel.     In the last four years I have had four knee surgeries and one back fusion.  I still get out on the water as often as my body allows.  It is a chapter of my life I would not have omitted from my journey.  Guiding was fulfilling but it took its toll on my body and my soul.  I love the outdoors and would not have missed a second of wading and talking and learning on the streams of rural Wisconsin.     Len Harris trout fishing guide 2003-2008.
    • 4-stroke or 2-stroke motor?
    • Glad to hear you're back up and running again.          
    • I got my boat back today and it runs great now but the mechanic said I had too many idling hours on it and it had a lot of carbon build up. I have trolled a lot with this motor . It has ran great but I did have  this recent issue with it where I had to bring it in and it runs good now. Mechanic recommended run it more often at higher rpm's.  For those that troll with their main engine,  how often do you run in a higher rpm's? I  use carbon guard  and thought that that would prevent the carbon buildup.  If I trolled for three or four hours at a higher RPM would that be too much ?          
    • Saw some reports from Algoma that looks like fishing has picked up some out there and some bigger fish being caught. I'm not ready for snow yet but I hope we actually get some this year. 
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