Trail Establishment?

[SapperACE]

I am just curious if any of you have played any type of a role in establishing ATV riding trails or ATV clubs in your respective areas. In my area (SW Minnesota farm country) there are snowmobile clubs that have worked to establish quite an extensive trail system. I realize that this is probobly a little easier for them since their trails cover frozen ground in the winter, and minimal damage can be done to property when everything is frozen.

I just feel that with the efforts of a dedicated ATV club, a trail system is a possible endevor... just a group of good people that would dedicate themselves to convincing land owners to allow a trail on their property, help to maintain the trail system, and help to enforce trail rules.

[Dave S]

It's easier said than done.

The problem is:

1) ATVs have gotten such a bad rap in the media that a lot of the fence sitters are now "Anti-ATV"

2) The majoirty of our riding occurs in the Spring/Summer/Fall, which also coincides with farming. There's more of a conflict in the Southern half of the state considering we're in the Agricultural zone.

3) One club in Southern MN has recently disbanded and handed their assets over to the local snowmobile club due to the lack of interest in the club. They had as many as 300 members at one point until it took 1 person to complain to the county and shut their riding area down. We have a lot of opposition in this part of the state.

[Roofer]

I am all for someone getting a club together. It just helps the cause. LEP knows first hand all about it.

The lack of interest comes easy when there are so many "don't do's" It's easier to just do what you want rather than have some groups breathe down your neck.

In northern MN it is a whole different story. Not so many yuppies with nothing to do besides trying to get their voice heard.

[chasineyes]

We already have lots of trails...there just not open for ATV's...SNOWMOBILE TRAILS. Who uses these trails the other 10 months that we have paid for? I would think the north, south, east and west regions would enjoy the extra money flowing to them instead of the Wisconsin areas. Would that not also spur more money for the DNR, increase sales for our local manufacturing companies etc.,. I have truly come to the belief that this is quickly becoming a state of no fun. And to slightly disagree with Roofer...more and more YUPPIES ARE retiring up north and buying land a cabins also bringing with them their "metro" mentality.

[Dave S]

We already have lots of trails...there just not open for ATV's...SNOWMOBILE TRAILS. Who uses these trails the other 10 months that we have paid for?

Keep in mind that many of the trails in the winter months ARE NOT paid for by the ATV registration funds. Also, as to who uses these trails the other 10 months out of the year? FARMERS!!!

The lease on these trails is only good for a small time period. There is not a lease paid throughout the year.

The majority of the snowmobile trails in southern MN cross over private agricultural land that is occupied by row crops from Spring until the fall harvest season.

[SapperACE]

You all make good points which are the reasons for my frustrations. I don't understand whay the road ditches can't be ridden in (ag zone) during the summer for the reason of protecting nesting birds. I am a hunter and want to do all I can to insure birds have a place to nest. It is frustrating to me though, that the same road ditch can be cut and bailed for hay during that same time period. I'm not knocking the farmers with that comment, just questioning the logic.

I feel that if the road ditches could be used as part of the trail system, we could combine that with property that is not used for agriculture and establish an extensive trail system. I would be hard work though.

I have to say to you all that what you say about the anti-ATV stuff is unfortunitly too true. It's too bad that the actions of a few, tarnish the way all ATV riders are veiwed. I'm gonna try to keep hope though!

[Dave S]

It doesn't seem right the farmers are able to harvest a crop out of the dithces while in the meantime, we can't ride in the same ditches. The farmers do rely on some of this as sustaining an income. Not all farmers are the BIG Coorporate farmers either. But that is another discussion that ends here.

The protection goes beyond nesting birds. It's for all wildlife. Sometimes that's all the habitat the wildlife has and as an all-around sportsman, I am willing to sacrifice some riding area to help sustain other things I enjoy. It's just more incentive to head north where the better trails are.

[Roofer]

I am just on the south side of the line. The ditches get very overgrown and I am very happy when the time comes to cut them down. The ones that aren't overgrown are the ones that people mow out in front of their house. Anyhow, the ditches around here are so bumpy from pocket gophers, it's almost unbearable to ride them in August. I sure wish I could pad them down all year. The ditches that get ridden north of 95 are much better because of it.

Just a quick question: Aren't the snowmobiles supposed to ride in the ditch the same way an atv does? Even the groomers come up on the shoulder quite a bit. I know that may be where the trail is, but in other areas like in front of my house, they just ride down the shoulder. (one passes as I type)

The trail that comes near my house does go through private property most of the way. I had a homeowner stop me a few years ago and he questioned me about atv's running through his land. I assured him it was not me, and that I knew the laws. He has a nice big sign that says "No ATV's" where the trail crosses the road. These are the people that we need to inform that, not all of us are bad. Some of us know the laws and have respect for private property.

[Dave S]

in some situations, riders may opt to take the shoulder to avoid running in someone's yard. Or should I say perceived yard? Whether or not they own the ditch, some will tear you a new rear end and the riders prefer to stay away from confrontations.

In limited cases, property owners actually own to the center of the roadway. The explanation behind this can be lengthy and I believe it's been discussed in one of the hunting forums in the past.

[Macgyver55]

The protection goes beyond nesting birds. It's for all wildlife. Sometimes that's all the habitat the wildlife has

I just don't get it....somebody has to tell me..... where did the birds nest before the roads with ditches came to be?

[Dave S]

Well, there used to be vast areas of land that weren't tilled under every year. Farmers have cleared hundreds of thousands of acres of woodlands and wetlands for the sake of having more tillable land which = more income.

Many of the fencelines that existed even as recently as the '80s were taken out for the few extra acres it yielded. The road ditches actually provide the majority of the habitat for the critters in some areas.

But, please bear with the sarcasm Mac as I know you're an intelligent guy and already knew this stuff.

[SapperACE]

I guess I have 2 points to make with the ditch thing. Here is the first:

-tactor and mower cut grass

-tractor and a hay rake make wind-rows

-tractor and a bailer make the bales

-tractor and hay rack pick up the bales

Obviously not all haying operations are this intrusive, but even the least intrusive ones do far more damage to "habitat" then an ATV trail ever would. Again, I am a farm kid, and I am not knocking the farmers. My point is, if they're gonna hay em...why can't we ride em?! There's no "habitat" left once you cut the gass and bale it up anyway. I am again just questioning the logic.

My second point is, with some work (mowing, grooming), ditches, at least in my part of the state, could be used to connect areas where more scenic riding could take place.

[Dave S]

SapperAce,

I can't say that I disagree. Once the mowing operation takes place, there isn't much left for habitat. However, farmers are encouraged by the DNR to wait until August before mowing ditches.

I don't believe it's fair and it could definitely create more areas to ride. Or at least access to other areas to ride.

[SapperACE]

Encouraged? They should "encourage" ATV riders to stay out of the ditches then. I'll promise to stay out of the ones that are not mowed. I'll let you know when I see the first mowing starting to happen this year... It will be long before Aug... like a couple months before! They'll be on the 3rd cutting by August!

Sorry for the rant LEP. I'm not arguing your points, and I realize i'm getting off topic. Thanks for listening though!

[Dave S]

Sapper,

I share the frustrations and yes some farmers are mowing by early June.

[BudMan]

The thing that really chaps my behind is that MOST of the 'farmers' mowing the ditches are not doing it for hay for themselves, they are selling it to others.............

[Dave S]

Again, I personally don't agree with it, but the farmers are entitled to mow ditches.

The next best thing you can do is to contact your legislator.

Another thing to think about if you do:

Take away the entitlement of the farmers to mow dithces, then think about who owns the majority of the land in Southern MN where we would want trails.

Rub the farmers the wrong way, and you will never see more trails in Southern MN.

[SapperACE]

So is the nature of the beast!

[Carpenter]

Here's my 2 cents. I lived in SW MN, I love my ATV, and some friends and I started a club. We worked with the DNR to form a park by Olivia and the county turned it down. We had $200k of state and federal trail $$ to create the park and the location to do it. BUT the county "older" and horse riders, didn't want to have anything to do with it. We brought it to them twice and then gave up. Others are right, a couple bad apples ruin the bunch. I love to mud, but there's a time and a place. Public areas are not the place. All the "evidence" left is against us. I believe snowmobilers had it tough in the beginning as well. The only thing they have going for them is that once the snow is gone, there aren't ruts left. I pay my dues, I patronize the atv parks, I instruct/train the youth to ride safely & correctly and I try to stay out of the ditches and follow the other laws. Not until everyone does that will we get very far, especially in the SW. Those people are too unwilling for change or to see the potential prosperity trails and parks can bring to a small community. Now I'm off my soapbox, but that struggle boils my blood.

[Roofer]

It will not matter at all to some people. They are just against atv's. I just don't see it getting any better.

[Big Dave2]

I am just curious if any of you have played any type of a role in establishing ATV riding trails or ATV clubs in your respective areas. In my area (SW Minnesota farm country) there are snowmobile clubs that have worked to establish quite an extensive trail system. I realize that this is probobly a little easier for them since their trails cover frozen ground in the winter, and minimal damage can be done to property when everything is frozen.

I just feel that with the efforts of a dedicated ATV club, a trail system is a possible endevor... just a group of good people that would dedicate themselves to convincing land owners to allow a trail on their property, help to maintain the trail system, and help to enforce trail rules.

We started an ATV club in Belle Plaine a couple of years ago. We had meetings with DNR officials to find out the feasibility of establishing a trail along the river bottoms. They basically told us that that would probably never happen but if we banded together with the Shakopee club and tried to establish a trail along HWY 169 between Shakopee and Belle Plaine we may have a shot.

We really got to a point where we were unsure how to proceed so we basically have disbanded with the intention of joining with the Shakopee club. I have not been to any of Shakopee's meetings and I am not sure if anyone else in our club has either, so I am not sure where the effort stands right now.

I basically was frustrated by the run-around and bureaucracy we were running into and felt that the time and effort that would have to be put forth would not be worth the small amount of results that could be achieved. Going up north is so much better than any trail we could ever hope to establish down here near the metro.

[Dave S]

BigDave2,

I actually went on a tour of trail possibilities with DNR and MNDOT staff prior to the Belle Plaine club starting.

The person who was supposed to be signing off on the paperwork left for another job outside of the DNR and I believe everything pertaining to that project was filed under "G".

[kr8r.tom]

whats dissapointing to me is we have 2 major manufacturers polaris/arctic cat. a little more help from them in the form of a voice/lobbying and of course money, could make a big difference in coming up with some kind of trail system.

[Big Dave2]

BigDave2,

I actually went on a tour of trail possibilities with DNR and MNDOT staff prior to the Belle Plaine club starting.

The person who was supposed to be signing off on the paperwork left for another job outside of the DNR and I believe everything pertaining to that project was filed under "G".

I think that is where it usually gets filed.

[Dave S]

whats dissapointing to me is we have 2 major manufacturers polaris/arctic cat. a little more help from them in the form of a voice/lobbying and of course money, could make a big difference in coming up with some kind of trail system.

And you're 100% absolutely certain they do little to nothing by way of trails or lobbyists to sustain their business?

They give more to the cause than you think.