dnr deer management (or lack there of)

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: 96trigger

So it goes back to the DNR and what this thread started about. Maybe they really are trying to just do their job.

Ya think?

And a great job at that! You know things are going well when less then 10 years ago I needed to apply to even shoot a doe and now I can legally kill 7 this year.

Not to mention just about every logging road and trail is covered in rubs and scrapes....Too bad there's soooo many places for them to hide it's really tough to get one, but THAT is not the DNR's fault.

I would say the mild winters has a lot more to do with the deer population of late than anything DNR has done. Look at all the areas of the state that went from intensive harvest to lotto areas, I don't think it was in their plans.

[96trigger]

Party hunting has its place, just not for bucks, we used to party hunt so we could shoot does. Not people party hunt to be able to shoot bucks. There needs to be a change there. And I don't disagree, there is not need to party hunt anymore, unless you are in a lottery zone.

I also think that traditional way of thinking about shooting a small buck over a doe is dying. It might be a slow death, but it is dying nonetheless. 10 years ago, not many people had even heard of QDM, now its very common and most know exactly what those three letters stand for.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

10 years ago, not many people had even heard of QDM, now its very common and most know exactly what those three letters stand for.

But do they really? The concept of a quality herd is great, but I think a lot of people hear the accronym QDM and think of huge bucks around every tree. That's the vibe I get from a lot of posters on here anyway.

I think the majority of people think that QDM is all about big racks. All the killing ( no where near hunting) shows on TV promote QDM as they stand over their monster they whacked from their palace in the middle of a game farm surrounded by food plots. This is what the folks are buying into, IMO. ( Let's plant a bunch of invasive plants in a food plot to bait the deer in and only shoot the monsters so we can brag about how big the rack is and how much better we are then the "meat hunters" because we practice QDM) This is the vibe I get and why I am so turned off by the push for this style of management. Let people shoot what they want and just enjoy the flippin experience that is hunting in the best state ever, Minnesota!

[Bear55]

I agree things are moving in the right direction. I think a lot depends on the younger generation and their willingness to pass up the little bucks. The old school meat hunters have had 30+ years of shooting anything with horns burned into their heads so it may take longer than you think for things to turn the corner. This may also depend if you are hunting private or public land, as we all know they can be worlds apart.

[Bear55]

QDM is more about hard work, good habitat, patience and sacrifice to try and promote a more balance healthy deer population. Maybe those that don't believe in it really don't want to put in the time or the work. I would say a big buck is a bonus.

[Piker]

Enforcing QDM, antler restrictions or anything else is a mistake. Our deer hunting laws are too complicated already. Thankfully, the licensing laws did get a little easier this year. I'll give a couple of reasons why "enforcing" QDM is a mistake. I think practicing it privately is fine, but I don't like enforcing it.

1) Just like monetary inflation, if there were more large antlered deer to harvest the value of a trophy would not be the same anyway. A buck is a trophy because it's size or characteristics are somewhat rare.

2) I like deer hunting the way it is. If there were more "trophy" deer, you can bet that accessibility to land will suffer.

3) I respect the opinions of others in this debate, but I do think that it does make deer hunting look more barbaric. I'm sorry, but this isn't like a slot limit where we're trying to protect spawners.

So under the topic of DNR management, kudos for the simplified licensing and count me amoung those that are against enforcing QDM or antler restrictions.

[Tyler D]

A couple things...

1. QDM is not neccesarily about B&C score it is about shooting a mature buck not a 1 1/2 year old 6 pointer. Can you tell me your hunt isnt more exciting when you thin you have a legitamite shot at a big buck?

2. There will never be a giant buck behind every tree, that would be a lot of deer and I'm not sure that it is biologically feasible.

3. The guy who talked about his buddies passing up does to kill small bucks hit the nail on the head. It is precisley the problem we have in this state. Several years ago we banned my uncle and some of his freinds from our land after I passed on a 6 pointer several times told them not to shoot it and one guy did it anyways even after he passed several does.

4. Trophy hunting is not killing the sport. Trophy hunters are all about harvesting does and mature bucks (not B&C) and maintaining a well balanced herd. Trophy hunters are the probably your most dedicated hunters out there and have a genuine love for the sport. I plan to spend 12 hours a day for the entire 9 day season in my stand, and I will be perfectly ok walking away with an unpunched tag. How many people are willing to do that?

5. It is about using common sense, if you are after meat why not shoot a doe? You can't very well eat the small rack, there isnt a whole lot of nutritional value there. Also a doe probably tastes pretty similar to a yearling buck.

[schmoe147]

Great Post BigGills I totally agree

Alright

Rule #1 - Do NOT shot immature bucks, PERIOD!

Rule #2 - Earn a buck - Get on Board!

Rule #3 - Move the Gun Hunting Season off of the Rut (Learn from our neibors to the South. There's a reason why Iowa has become one of the most sought after places to hunt Whitetails and tags are so hard to get).

Rule #4 - Teach young hunters the significants of these rules.

[Neighbor_guy]

The qdm argument will never work with good success in MN because we are small track hunters. Most of us are hunting 40, 80, mabe 160 acres. A lot of us can not even get neighbors to return calls let alone work with you on trying to produce a good heard. If we lived in texas or WY and hunted 16,000+ acres mabe you could be more selective.

We are meat hunters in MN. Have been since the start of legal hunting seasons. (some even when there was no "legal" seasons)

We are loosing hunters in both age and numbers so fast we can not even get out of our own way. Increasing regulations, and making the proceess more confusing than it already is, is not the way to go. Heck, they dont even check your deer at the check in stations even more.

My Grandfather once told me "boy, dont p into the wind." Boy is it windy in here.

[AF-1984]

My Grandfather once told me "boy, dont p into the wind." Boy is it windy in here.

LOL - Agreed!

[Bear55]

I agree that antler restrictions and forced QDM may not be the way to go but there has to be some middle ground somewhere so we can protect at least some of the young bucks.

[CodyDawg]

Bear55, you make some good points. This is such and interesting topic. I read a bunch of the posts and this is one of the better conversations I have seen. My thoughts are thus: we need to do something to help little bucks survive and bring about a more balanced, natural herd. My party has some of those old timers who just have to shoot a buck. any buck. then they throw the racks away if they are not big.

the easiest thing to do is quit the party hunting rule. A nice step in the right direction and it really doesnt affect anyone too much. I for one, can't see much of the down side to this. No other states to my knowledge do this and no one needs to shoot another persons deer.

next easiest thing is to move the dates. maybe not completely out of the rut, but how about a week or two later. catch the tail end, but keep the tradition alive of basically the same time. say the second to third week in Nov.

Now I am all for going further, but lets start here and see how things play out. Those 2 ideas wont hurt anyone very much and may make a nice difference. Then we re-evaluate and go from there.

I do like the idea of limiting the buck tags somehow. Maybe half the tags have antler point restrictions and half dont. maybe antler point restrictions can continue to be over the counter, but an Any-Buck tag is lotto.

And deer hunting regulations are NOT complicated. If people think they are, then I don't know that I want them operating a firearm. I bet most of the ones who say they are complicated never even read the book.

[sparcebag]

cody that does sound feasible! I always thought of a season starting a week later(selfishness for archery)and less rut hunting.The party hunting sounds good also but how would it be enforced with it being ingrained in the tradition.Its hard to change especially in the woods, no COs or very few if any in the woods,I've never seen one in woods, on roads yes,and checked only out of the woods.We would need so many more COs that cant happen with the current DNRs money intake!

[96trigger]

Eliminating party hunting would be easy in areas that have a healthy population. Most of them have enough tags the way it is. In some areas, where it's lottery, it will be tough.

I think that to move the season back, it would be OK, but also, in South Eastern Minnesota, number of hunters would have to be looked at. It would be tough to combine both the seasons, and moving the second season back might turn some people off, the second season is so popular because its the week of Thanksgiving.

For zone 3, I would propose moving the buck season (3A) back one week and only opening it for 5 days and have a one deer limit. Then for zone 3B, you would start at the normal time and have the full 9 days again. That would give the deer 7 extra days to breed and get the rut out of the their system. I think some of the first season hunters will not like it, but after a couple of years, they would still have first crack with a firearm at all the bigger bucks that will be running around.

I think that we also have to face some facts that not all the places in Minnesota are going to have the population, genetics, food supply, and environment to raise many big bucks.

[sparcebag]

96 am I wrong but I thought this year there were no split seasons??

[Bear55]

Yes party hunting would be hard to enforce but it would still be the law and I think most people would follow it. There will be poeple that break this law but they are probably the same people now who are breaking the laws now. After a few years people will get use to it.

[96trigger]

There is still split seasons in the Southeast. We still have a 3A which is a 7 day season from the 8th through the 14th. 3B starts on 15th and goes to the 23rd.

[archerystud]

Quote:

I think that we also have to face some facts that not all the places in Minnesota are going to have the population, genetics, food supply, and environment to raise many big bucks.

Not to pick on you 96 but I disagree with that statement. Maybe not all but most of MN could produce bigger bucks. I also disagree about "genetics" being necessary for a big buck. It depends on who's defenition of big you are talking. To at least 90 percent of the hunters in this state a 140 class deer is a very large buck. I'm not a biologist I would argue that at least 80% of whitetail bucks in MN if given a chance to make 4.5 years of age could make it to a 140 class deer. I would just like to see more deer of this caliber in the state. A B & C deer on the other hand requires great genetics and not every deer can get that big.

I think CodyDog hit the nail on the head. Since 1992 I've taken 1 nice and 3 big bucks in MN. In that same amount of time I've taken 12 does. QDM is about properly managing the herd. None of those bucks broke 140 inches but the 3 dressed out at over 200 lbs. the other at 187.

IMO, most areas of the state have a buck population which is too small and immature and many areas have too many does.

[slimngrizzly]

I agree archstud. QDM can be 100% effective at mantaining a balanced buck/doe ratio, producing mature bucks, and providing everyone plenty of opportunity. Even the ones that argue know this! The problem is they wanna have thier cake and eat it too. Everyone would like a big buck, but they want to shoot the little one too. And for QDM to work, that CAN NOT happen.

Nearly every buck in MN given age will be a large bodied, large antlered animal. Some may not have lots of points or score real well. But they will still be big, and if nothng else given the chance to show their potential before being shot.

[96trigger]

Stud, I don't feel picked on. This has been a great discussion. I would not sneeze at a 140 class buck. I think what we are really talking about is letting the baskets and forks grow. If everybody's definition of a trophy is different, then I would say that after that, we cannot tell people to not shoot that 2 1/2 year old. (Actually, who are we to tell them they can't take that fork or basket).

Quote:

None of those bucks broke 140 inches but the 3 dressed out at over 200 lbs. the other at 187.

Aren't you kind of proving my point with this, shouldn't those bucks have had better racks with a body size that big? Or where they too young? Two years ago I did shoot a gnarly 5 pointer that weighed 192 pounds, But he was only 2.5 years old, but he looked huge coming through the woods.

I don't have the answers. I know what we have in my neck of the woods, I see a surprising amount of large deer on public land during the bow season. If I listen to what some people are saying on this sight, in some areas it sounds like there are no deer, in other areas it sounds like there are lots of deer but only small bucks, etc... How do you manage a state when the populations vary so much? In the areas where there are lot of deer, where are the big ones. you can't tell me that the buck to do ratio is so out of whack that there are only small bucks. That I am not buying. That might happen on someones 40 or their 80 acre sections, but not the entire area.

P.S. Slimn, I was wondering when you were going to chime in

[Bear55]

Well said archerystud and slimgrizly. Even if you do run into a buck with poor genetics I would much rather shoot a 5.5 year old six pointer with a heavy rack than a young 2.5 year old 10 pointer. It you let any buck get to be 4.5+ he is going to be a trophy for most hunters.

[slimngrizzly]

P.S. Slimn, I was wondering when you were going to chime in

I didnt notice this post till now.... probably a good thing. I can get fired up pretty fast when it comes to QDM, HAHA Next time look out!!!

[archerystud]

Quote:

Aren't you kind of proving my point with this, shouldn't those bucks have had better racks with a body size that big? Or where they too young?

None of them were 4.5 year olds. The smallest was a 2.5 year old but he did have some great genetics. The largest rack would have been a 140 class at 3.5 years old but he had a broken point. Sorry I should have clarified that.

This is a tough discussion. I'd just like to see the state improve the herd age of the bucks here a little bit. I do think the reg changes to a single season may help So. MN zone 4 as I'm betting there will be less hunters. I know of a few groups who lost their hunting land since it's now one season instead of two.

We have two properties that I mainly hunt on and they have the ability to produce big bucks. I'm just amazed at how many small ones I pass on that get drilled. I just don't have enough land to protect a "few" bucks.

[96trigger]

Someone posted on here that QDM won't work in Minnesota because of the small tracts of land owned by people. Its the same story over and over, I pass on little bucks and they get drilled by the neighbors. I just have to think that some of those bucks that I pass on make it through. If they didn't, we wouldn't see any bucks older than 1.5 years. The state could try and mandate something but I don't have any idea how it would work without making the weekend warriors mad, unfortunately, I think Minnesota is loaded with those hunters, they have 48 hours to fill their deer tag, and they are going to fill it with whatever walks by. Unless there gets to be some restrictions, this will happen year in and year out. What I think all of us don't understand is why some people will shoot the little buck that comes in with four does and let the does live. I do think that this mentallity is slowly dying. In my party alone I have driven that notion out of at least 3 die hard people. I have an uncle that I neve thought would ever let a deer walk by but he did last year, and he's 60 years old.

[2Crank]

Trigger reminds me of my Brother's Story. For the past 3 years I have been trying to coach the members of my party on the goals of QDM. We hunt in a intensive harvest area. Small tracks of land. My brother and dad have taken 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old bucks 4 out of the past 5 years. They say, "If they don't shoot them, the neighbors WILL"! I reply, "They might" but then again they , "May Not"! As soon as YOU pull the trigger, it's a sure thing.

I have taken 2 bucks in the past 5 years OVER 140. I have seen and passed on many smaller bucks, some of wich my dad and brother killed. Although frusterating I will continue to do so.

Last year my Brother shot a buck in the 140's. It was a buck that he missed the year before on opening day. Guess what? He now is now on board with QDM!!! I will believe it when I see it, but Time will tell.