how much can these lakes take

[broodwich]

If all this is true then why do we bother fishing muskies? I release muskies promptly, but I have had a couple die on me... Whats a guy to do? If he really felt strongly about fish dieing then he would quit... right?

[propster]

Everybody has some valid points they've made but in the end, you're absolutely right. The only way to avoid the possibility of killing them (by not getting hooks out anyway - I suppose you could run one over with the boat!) is not target them, or better yet not fish at all 'cause you could still get one by accident. But we can still feel strongly about (and badly) about them dieing and still fish for them, as long as we do everything in our power to ensure their survival.

[b1gf1sh1]

yes sir, propster, that's correct, IMO. the key is ''knowing'' your doing it right. i like the posts about being ready with tools. i also believe it's important to know when we've overstepped our bounds on handling and time out of water.

my info comes from a woman i was with for a few years that was in school for fisheries biology, genetics mostly,(really smart chick). she's in Cali. last i heard... nevermind long story... anyway i base this on questions i'd ask her and then if she did'nt know she'd ask her professor or whoever. so what the info is based on really is unknown. i assume it's a study of some kind but not sure. i never questioned it,i'd rather error on the side of extreme caution anyway.

[Nick Kuhn]

On the oxygen issue it's a bit more complicated. All animal bodies will still function at 1/19th capacity without oxygen. Humans are warm blooded so the exterior temperature isn't a factor. For fish though it is. At 80 degree water temps a fishes metabolism might be 10 to 20 times higher than near freezing. So 30 seconds out of the water during a hot summer day may be more damaging than 2 minutes on near freezing days. The only human analogy are infants that fall into ice water. Often their body temperature drops so rapidly they effectively don't need any oxygen to survive (though the dropping temperature is often fatal). This is why you occasionally here of small children surviving half an hour or so underwater. Also I don't think fish suffer the same permanent brain damage from low oxygen that people do, just an evolutionary trait to prevent them from all going stupid on a long hard winter.

So yes the fish should be kept in the net (underwater) while unhooking. You don't necessarily need to rush everything, as you are likely to do something stupid to injure the fish. 2 pictures is enough, as any extras will all look the same. After a long hard day of fishing none of us look pretty anyway.

A few studies have shown that hooking mortality is considerably lower than previously thought for most means of catching muskies. Only single hook sucker rigs really have a statistically significant chance of a fish dying. If you release the fish chances are really pretty good it lives a long time. As far as catching that fish, studies have shown they aren't stupid. Fish that have been caught have shown different behavior near passing boats than fish that haven't been caught.

[b1gf1sh1]

Quote:

All animal bodies will still function at 1/19th capacity without oxygen.

when a fish is out of water it's getting zero oxegen and surviving on reserves. making time critical. yep.

true vahn. way more complicated. theres enough information to cover a couple volumes i bet. oxegen is the single most important thing for sustaining life on earth. all brains whether an ant or an elephant need it to live, and all brains work on electrical impulses. when these impulses are interupted the brain automaticly tries to regulate only the most critical functions needed to support life for the longest time possible. deplete oxygen supply and the brain is erratic at best. this is true in any brain. in warm blooded animals it keeps vital organs warm and functioning when it's cold, and stays away from regulating the extremities. take away the oxygen and nothing is regulated because the brain is apparently trying to survive itself and at that point the brain is the most important thing needed to survive. just becomes intermittent sparks on the way to death. in it's simplest terms thats called a stroke. a stroke is caused by oxygen depletion to the brain, blood carries that oxygen, stop the heart from beating right and theres no oxygen. circle of death i've heard it termed. in cold blooded animals everything is the same except the brain does'nt regulate body temp, the temp outside the body does. ok, now theres not enough oxegen, nothing is being regulated properly.the brain is without sufficient oxegen and the fish has a form a stroke. stroke victims survive but never recover completely, ever. sure they live, but not the way they did before the tragedy. the tiny size of a muskies brain needs less oxygen to operate but still needs the amount it's supposed to have or it won't. this could be gone over and over and fine points filled in and adjusted and probably even corrected. the only thing that matters in the end to me is whether a fish is being kept in an environment where it's survival is optimal,IMO. and to me, that somewhere theres oxygen at all times. a fish is tired, confused, and maybe even a little terrified when it's caught. i know i would be.

as far as heat, nice point, people need that education too. personally when it gets to about 85 outside i stay away from bigger fish. got more about heat?

[Lunch_box]

On the subject of the Muskie Stamp, I’m in favor of the concept but I fear how “dedicated” the funds will be over time. For example, the Illinois DNR had dedicated funds but a new Governor came in and literally raped the funds for things that had absolutely nothing to do with the DNR or what people would expect these funds to be invested in. This was not just a one time thing either, it has been happening repeatedly for several years. To add insult to injury, after raping the DNR’s budget and dedicated funds, Blago is now forcing them to close several historic state parks due to lack of funds available to cover operating expenses.

As we all know, tax income is going down in this troubling economic period. If we create a new revenue stream for the state, don’t underestimate the power and intent of some of our elected officials and their desire to fund their personal agendas.

Possibly a better answer is to donate money to your local Muskies, Inc. chapters for stocking and research. Several of the MN MI Chapters are actively stocking every year to supplement DNR stocking. As new lakes get approved through the new long range plan, the DNR may find it difficult to raise or purchase fish needed to jump start these lakes. When this happens, your local MI chapter will be there to assist. While stocking is a great short term solution, many chapters are also investing in research projects that will provide long term solutions.

You don’t have to be a member of any chapter to help with this effort. Several opportunities exist for you to get involved to a level that matches your appetite. I can’t speak for every activity of all the MI chapters but here’s a baseline based on the Twin Cities Chapter.

a. Show up and help out when they net the rearing ponds

b. Send a donation check that will be deposited directly into the stocking and rearing account, earmarked for stocking and rearing expenses only.

c. Purchase tickets for the boat raffle, all proceeds go into the stocking and rearing account

d. Attend the chapter banquet in February, hosted by a big name speaker and typically a great social event. Funds make it possible to do more stocking and research.

e. Join a MI chapter. Increasing our numbers will give us a larger voice (through the Minnesota Muskie Alliance) with the DNR and the members of state government who have to balance the expectations of Muskie fisherman and the unreasonable demands of our opponents who have lobbyists bending the ears of our elected officials that meddle in the management of the fishery from time to time. The MI Chapter's played a big role in getting the new long range plan approved. This may not have been possible without their ability to demonstrate the growing numbers of muskie fisherman and pressure on the species. Membership growth will help reinforce this as we try to help the DNR execute on the plan. Keep in mind the long range plan is only a plan, resistance may not go away as we try to execute to the plan.

[50inchpig]

excellent post box, well thought out and right on, pretty much the opposite of most of my posts. last line is key - resistance may not go away as we try to execute - also the political side - there was already legislation proposed earlier this year that would have lifted the spearing ban on most, if not all lakes, and taken a good deal of power away from the DNR to regulate the Northern Pike fishery. this was mostly a long shot proposal by rep. heidgerken (retired now) that didn't make it very far, but should serve to show us how easy it is for things to get messed up by the politicians.

seen a fish caught last night, held up for pics, dropped in the boat, held up again for pics, and that was all i could take. how much these lakes can really take will depend on how well we can release them, so the release discussion is important here. keep em low, hold your breath, and let em go.

[Shawn Kellett]

First off I'm not a usual troller of this board and I have to say that I'm impressed with the civil and general positive tone of this thread. I'm also impress with the number of people who are concerned with the fishery and would like to see it continue. Joe (Lunchbox) informed me of this thread and I wanted to make a couple points.

First, thanks to those who have given the TC Chapter and myself props. It takes a lot of people to do what we do and more often then not I hear more complaining then praise. It's a volunteer organization (read: I GET TO pay to do this) and we do this for "fun" LOL.

A note on Muskies Inc. Many people say that we get the $35 of their membership to stock fish with. In reality that money mainly to running an organization. Things like insurance, magazines, accountants, newsletters, etc cost a lot of money. In fact it costs the chapters money to carry each member. All of the stocking, kids programs, speakers etc come from our fund raising dollars. While it's great our rosters as full as possible and it helps give us more stroke when at the negotiating table, just realize that there are costs associated with it.

In addition to the monetary support that Joe referred to above, we need people who can share their talents. I realize that not everyone has a lot of disposable income and not everyone has hours upon hours each week to give. Everyone has a little time during the year at some point where they can contribute. In addition to raising and stocking muskies, we also have programs that get kids out fishing (needed to keep license dollars up), Vets activities and even a fishing trip where we take people with phyiscal handicaps out fishing.

What I really need is about 5-10 people who know how to take a project and see it through to completion. There are many of us with professional jobs out there that do this on a daily basis. We also need people that can just show-up and take direction as well. At the end of the day MI needs 2 things to do what we do: volunteer time and money. Without it we're nothing more then a name. Trust me, you'll get WAY more out of it then you put in if you give it a chance.

As far as the muskie stamp goes I have to say that I'm not really for it (at least how it's been presented). The cost of implementing it vs. the number of people purchasing it is questionable at best. It'll also be look at by many as a "harvest stamp". That's not the perception we want to promote either.

I know that the TC Chapter has a specific account set-up specifically for stocking/rearing projects (I don't know how other chapters work this). Anyone can send us money to add to that account at any time. We use this money to buy fish, equipment for our rearing efforts as well as food for the fish we're rearing. Just an FYI, I think we're a few thousand shy of our $30,000 goal is year. Any support is appreciated. You can even name one if you like .

Currently the 2 year old fish we're ordering are $30/each. These are the size that have been taking very well in Minnetonka and WBL. We hadn't been seeing the results we wanted stocking fingerlings there because of the number of pike and bass feeding on them. The extra money for the larger fish are paying off in this fishery as seen by the numbers of high 20's and low 30's myself and others are seeing. We're also looking at tagging our fish this year. This will help the DNR gain more data as to how much better the bigger fish do. We'll need some help for this project as well.

Feel free to check out our HSOforum for more information on our club: http://www.twincitiesmuskiesinc.org/

Thanks,

Shawn Kellett

[email protected]

[cjac]

Thanks for posting Shawn,

Here's an example of the stocking process, volunteering, and what a $30 fish looks like! If seeing this doesn't get a guy a little pumped than they should just hang up muskie fishing...

[JRedig]

I'm gonna have to get in touch with Paul again, I was supposed to get on the email list to help with moving the fish etc last spring and I never heard or got anything about it. Looks like fun!

[50inchpig]

Thanks for weighing in Shawn, nice to see you post on a site that actually supports the MN musky program and it's anglers, "I am what I am and that's all the I am". You'd think they all would......

[9joey1]

I went on a trip in July to Vermilion and was completely disgusted with how that lake has changed in the past few years with pressure. Every reef, point bay had boats in it. Mille Lacs is also brutal. The lake my family has a cabin on also has muskies in it. I have never seen so many rude fisherman driving by fast, casting close to me, ignoring no wake signs, thinking they're cool cause they are tossing a bait that makes a big splash. I have sold half of my stuff on [YouNeedAuthorization] and most of the rest will be gone too.

[Jay Hanson]

I went on a trip in July to Vermilion and was completely disgusted with how that lake has changed in the past few years with pressure. Every reef, point bay had boats in it. Mille Lacs is also brutal. The lake my family has a cabin on also has muskies in it. I have never seen so many rude fisherman driving by fast, casting close to me, ignoring no wake signs, thinking they're cool cause they are tossing a bait that makes a big splash. I have sold half of my stuff on [YouNeedAuthorization] and most of the rest will be gone too.

Good point, thats why we need more muskie lakes. I think the situation is getting more and more urgent all the time (i did send an email to DNR sharing my opinion) and others may feel the same way on lots of other muskie lakes. The post above from Mr Kellet is helpful and informational, by reading that post i plan to donate to Muskie Inc. Mr Kellet, how do we make a money donation to Muksie Inc.?

[Croix]

I'm gonna have to get in touch with Paul again, I was supposed to get on the email list to help with moving the fish etc last spring and I never heard or got anything about it. Looks like fun!

I would love to help out next spring with the process, where do we sign up?

[tonkapat]

wow I didn't expect this many responses. Thanks again to Shawn and his chapter for all the hard work. We wouldn't have these awesome fisheries without them. I was at the last meeting(my first) and noticed not a lot of younger guys there. I am 30 and on the lake there are plenty of young guys out there reeping the benefits. If you could Shawn post on this site when u would like volunteers and or where to send the checks and I think u will get a good response. good luck all

[Nick Kuhn]

B1gF1sh the info on the heat is really simple. All energy for animal bodies comes in the form of ATP. With oxygen you will produce 38 ATP per molecule of sugar broken down. Without oxygen you can still produce 2 ATP per molecule of sugar broken down (along with lactic acid). The reason you cannot run indefinitely is you cannot sustain the oxygen demand of your own muscles, so it does some 38's and some 2's (ultimately building up lactic acid in your muscles).

But as far as heat goes humans operate at an astonishing 98.6 degrees F. People always have huge energy demands. Fish only do when it's warm though. When it is very cold fish can almost survive by just getting the 2 ATP from a sugar molecule, as the metabolism is really really low (think of people with outdoor goldfish ponds going the whole winter without feeding them). The big factor though is letting the fish rest in the net for a while before pulling it out. There's a big difference in how long you can hold your breath when you just jump in the pool as opposed to after swimming 20 laps. A good example is when the DNR boom shocks, those fish can be out of water several minutes with no oxygen as they were in a rest state before (and continue to be throughout) the entire ordeal.

My personal example is I was with a friend at a lake 30 miles from my cabin. He wanted to eat fresh fish so he kept a 26"er. We put it on a stringer so it was well replenished when we called it a day. I don't eat fish so we did not have a fillet knife present. I ended up throwing it in a garbage bag (with no water or ice) and left it in the back of the truck. After making the 45 minute drive home I threw it in cooler of well water just to keep it cool while we unloaded. When it was finally time to clean the fish I was shocked to find it right side up and still kicking pretty well. I felt really bad about cleaning a fish with that kind of survival ability... And I do have witnesses to verify that in fact did happen, whether you guys believe me or not.

[Shawn Kellett]

Our club will be netting one of our ponds this fall. The one we coop with Paul we're going to winter over in order to get larger fish for next year. I can post on this site when we have our next netting.

As far as volunteers, we need them for pretty much everything. Our fundraisers (Tournament, Raffle and Banquet) always need helpers. We have a special "Project Committee" that works on new projects for the club. These include exploring the possibilities of creating new ponds, looking into research projects, or any number of possible well, projects. We have our youth director position open recently with our director getting activated for duty. The list goes on and on. The big thing is that we have a place for everyone's talent, we just need people to step-up and let us know what that talent is.

For those interested, check out our HSOforum and you can see all the stuff we do. The photo section has thousands of pics in it too.

If anyone is interested in contributing to our stocking efforts you can send a check to me made out to Muskies Inc. Please put stocking in the notes.

Shawn Kellett

414 Division St

Excelsior MN 55331

Thanks,

Shawn

[email protected]

[b1gf1sh1]

i've never donated to MI. i donate to the DNR fisheries dept. every year. money and tackle i don't use and some i make. gave some rods and reels up this spring that were gathering dust. all money is for the general fund mainly because i'm a general fisherman. that said. i want to buy a fish or two. is there a plan? like can i choose from certain lakes? or is it just pot luck on the lakes you plan on stocking?

also, shawn.... this musky stamp idea has been brought up for a long time. before i was a member here... years ago... i'd talk with people about the idea. hear the same thing alot about some considering it a harvest stamp. think of it like this. or at least consider it. your a pan fisherman, or bass fisherman, or whatever. you catch a muskie, your first. it's 491/2 inches and the biggest thing you ever seen. so you keep it. maybe you know the numbers better than me but i'd imagine theres alot of that happening every year.ALOT. way more than a thousand seasoned muskie hunter is going to keep. in fact i'd venture to guess that out of a thousand caught by them there would be 100 fish kept, and any dead ones. and maybe 100 out of 1000 released by novices fishing crappies and those hundred about ten survive the 15 pics.. no stamp no keep, no stamp not even fish for them no stamp not even a pic. real simple. deer have tags, why not muskie. call it a one per tag. tag is givin with the stamp. no tag no keep. unlike a deer harvest tag a fisherman can put a fish back. a deer is shot and killed and thats the only choice. mainly it more than likely could have saved the 49 incher out of owasso earlier this year. and many more like it. i really believe the benefits would out weigh the harm. course might be less money people could donate someplace else. then again it may make people more aware of the fishery and it's needs.

one more time,lol. if i was a poet i could make it memorable.

next time your on a 200 acre lake in the greater metro competeing with 30 muskie hunters tossing lures two feet off your stern...

imagine me on thousands of acres and miles of water waving at bass, walleye and cat fishermen without another muskie lure seen or heard for day's on end. then launch your boat on the nearest river, find me, and say hi.

[Jay Hanson]

Shawn, if a guys sends in $100 dontation for stocking, if the fish are $30/piece, would that be 3 fish added to Lake Minnetonka?

[Shawn Kellett]

Right now I have an agreement with the DNR to split 1000 fish between Minnetonka and White Bear Lake. We may be able to increase that, but it'll be a last minute call.

Right now we have est $27,000 in our stocking fund for these fish so we do need more money if we want to stock all 1000 fish. $27,000/$30=900 fish right now. Every dime we take in will increase this. If we have extra money it'll get rolled over to next year. This is required sometimes as fish are not always available.

How muskie stocking works in MN: The determining factor as to where we stock fish really boils down to where the DNR needs/wants the additional stocking. The DNR has a lake plan for each lake that's determined by how many littoral acres it is (acres shallower then 20' if I remember correctly). They base their stocking numbers off of this criteria. They base their production off of the demand of lakes that need X fish per littoral acre. If we were to stock lake X then the DNR wouldn't stock it above and beyond the plan (in most instances).

Where MI stocking comes in:

-When the DNR can't come up with fish to meet their quota.

-When there is a lake that is not in their "plan". WBL is one such lake. The TC Chapter started it on our own because the DNR didn't want it. They put fish in occasionally, but it's mainly maintained by private stocking.

-When the DNR wants to try something new. An example of this is when our chapter started stocking 2-4 year old fish in Minnetonka. Now that we've seen the benefit the DNR is going to try to stock it with larger fish in the future.

-When reestablishing native bodies of water. Example: The St.Cloud chapter stocked some fish in the Mississippi below the St.Cloud [PoorWordUsage] ... I mean "darn" last year LOL.

-When an event has occurred where an increase in stocking is warranted. This could be a die-off or other natural or man made problem with the watershed or species.

-Possibly starting new bodies of water. The new Long Range Plan calls for up to 8 new bodies of water to be stocked. The money's got to come from somewhere.

Our focus on where we do our stocking will naturally vary from year to year. Right now Minnetonka is in desperate need of fish. After the last fisheries specialist left, the stockings didn't take as well. The result is that there is a huge hole in year classes on that lake. Anyone who fishes it can notice that they'll catch more mid 40" fish then mid 30" fish. In a healthy system it should be the opposite. White Bear Lake will always be a priority for us as we're responsible for that fishery.

In one of my meetings with Ron Payer (Head of Fisheries) he brought up several times that the DNR doesn't have money/resources to do a lot of expansions right now. I responded back that I'm not looking for his resources, but rather his permission. This is going to play big in the next few decades as the DNR budget is getting reduced and we're demanding more from them. The more we can do for them in funding and physical labor the better off we're all going to be.

b1gf1sh1 - As far as the stamp, I said I'm against it as presented. I realize the potential benefits, but it's got to be done right. There's a way it could work, but it needs:

1. some refinement as far as the cost/benefit relationship is concerned. If it generates more money then we can stock lakes with then what's the point (see the DNR lake plan above),

2. assurances that the money that's currently being spent on muskies will continue. We don't want to 100% rely on the stamp for muskie production/programs,

3. assurances that said moneys generated will stay within the muskie program. If these conditions can be met I'd be on board. We're going to be discussing it with the DNR over the next few years so you never know.

Slow Rollin: actually it'd be 3-1/3 muskies. Feel free to check out a baby names book for some ideas for your new kids

-Shawn

[delcecchi]

That's funny. I was on Vermilion in July as well and I thought the Musky guys, while quite plentiful, seemed more polite than other years. You didn't get caught in the middle of a big tournement, did you? It was july 18 and 19 and presumably had a full field of 50 teams.

I have a perception that sometimes guys in tourneys that have significant money on the line can get a little peeved at someone on "their spot".

[b1gf1sh1]

ok shawn, one last thing (maybe, lol).

i didn't mention this but it seems to be a good add on.IMO.

i know the tag might be a little outrageous to some but really who could want or need a large fish more than one a year anyway? i'd throw in anything over a certain size, wally, cats, whatever. but... i'm a little excentric(sp?) anyway...

i mentioned the tag. say the first year i buy a harvest tag. it's ten bucks. i fish all year and never keep one. the rule would state if it's unused i get the new year half price at 5.00 but never below in any coming years. now the harvest can be tracked much easier and more accurately every year, less estimating. a form could ask questions like lake harvested at, size, all that kind of info on a harvested fish. track where they might be getting a little depleted. theres more but this is just a point to ponder. now about a perch stamp...

[JRedig]

This is a great discussion, we should break it off into a stocking/management discussion thread separately.

[Whales]

Two words - GAS PRICES!! Go North if you can, I have been on ML three times this year and its been a ghost town.

[Shawn Kellett]

If the stamp is going to work you gotta K.I.S.S. Most people are ignorant of regs (intentionally or incidentally). When it comes to reg's the fewer steps you ask the Gov't to take the cheaper it'll be. If you make it too complicated it's going to cost more to maintain and you'll have less benefit.

Think about it this way, if they have to hire another person to cover this project (remember, Gov't) then they're going to have to take money out of that program to cover that body. It costs the Gov't a min of $50,000/year to hire someone by the time you figure pay, insurance, benefits, pension, tax, etc. How much do you thing the muskie stamp would generate? Not to mention the DNR doesn't have an extra 2 nickels to rub together right now anyway (thank you ethanol mandate).

Like I said, the stamp would have to be structured right to get my support.