What do you think?

[Powerstroke]

I totally agree with your statement anyfish.

A huge problem with gaining private land access is that many people with money whether from out of state or from the metro or whatever, will offer a landowner money right off the bat. I've asked more than one owner if I can have permission to hunt and they asked what I was willing to pay. THey told me that people are offering them money and if I wanted to hunt there I should name a price.

I won't reduce myself to that. I went in on a private Potlatch lease last year, but at least the land is exclusive. Some of these owners are seeing $$$$$ and they've forgotten about just granting permission.

[Thorn]

Hi all,

Just moved here from TX. 2 years ago. Don't get me started on land leasing.....HA!

I've enjoyed hunting for the past 10 years with my son who

only happend to see a giant 12 point the first time hunting here in MN. That was 5 years ago, He'll be 21 soon.

It was his first deer he ever saw after not seeing a single deer of the first 5 years hunting in Tx. He was so boogered up with buck fever he just watched it till it meandered off. We were hunting in the Chippewa NF.

----------------

Is it legal to take a buck with your tag and another buck while party hunting?

And what is this QDM you're talking about? Is it trophy deer management, or some type of practice that ensures a helthy population of deer. I'm guessing it's the type of management that isn't oriented towards a complete concern for herd health.

Maybe it's a lack of research. Myself, I would not pass on a deer. Nor do I want to teach any of my family to inherit such poor management practice. And it's not really a sportsman like issue when you tell people

{I only shoot big bucks}

Is it ethical to only shoot big bucks, sure it is. To each their own. My son bagged two last year. One off of someone else's tag during a deer drive party hunting.

That's another aspect too. The season is so short that I highly recomend a good safe deer drive.

Throw in a earn a buck program and you would be insaine not to have a longer season.

in 2007 MN had 500,000 deer hunters and bagged only 260,000 deer.

As it stands today, as is same rules per season '07 throw in an earn a buck program would the harvest decline? Sure it would, that's what gets the QDM ball rolling. Shoot less smaller bucks and get the herd to produce Quality Mature Deer....er, bigger racks I mean.

What would the consequences be?

Shooting as many does and knocking the population down..priceless

Literally out of reach pricless. Soon it ends up going into very ill territory.

The things I saw in Tx. were, shooting clubs going into public land to erdicate doe populations ruining a good population just to keep their agenda based QDM [PoorWordUsage] leases as high priced as possible.

I mean in other words, who would want to pay a high price for a lease when they can tag a deer on public land?

Which brings up another problem. The MN deer tags in 2008 will be offerd a little different, so I gather. No all season tag, cool huh. Not really. The State Lands will be loosing thousands of dollars. How will they make back the loss of funds generated by license sales?

Do what Tx did, close some state lands and offer draw only in those particular parks which all applicants [win or loose] must pay application fees.

Oh the list keeps going......

I'm a sportsman, If it's brown it's down.

[96trigger]

I've actually been thinking alot about this thread. It always makes me nervous to think about land leases etc.. I want my son to be able to hunt just like I did. We hunt primarily private land but keeping that is getting soooo expensive (but that might change with the economy). Certain luxeries like having recrational land might come to an end. However, it could open the door to more leasing, especially if it gets tight for everyone.

I did't think a whole lot differently than many of you. I wanted a trophy buck. I hadn't see anything of any size in ten years of hunting, however, I oten saw other people shooting nice bucks. I'd see then at the local bars and in outdoor publications. The question I asked myself is what are they doing differently than me. Why are they getting the big deer and I am not, not "we should all let little bucks go so I can continue to be an average sportsman and stumble across one". Instead, I got serious about it. I read publications and books on whitetail hunting. I did all I could to eliminate scent. I pay attention to the wind, I move stands regularly, and I put in time, time, time. I don't walk out on opening day, climb into the same old tree stand and hope I see a deer anymore. I scout, scout again, and scout some more. My early season bowhunting is almost always just scouting with a weapon. Since starting this 5 years ago I first started seeing an increase in the number of deer I saw. In the last three years, I have had at least one shot at Pope and Young deer (all on private land bordering public). Only one shot, I connected on 1 out of 3. To me, thats what its all about. Spending the time, putting in the work, and waiting for that one shot, the payoff of all the scouting, time, sweat, and practice. I know that my area has big bucks and that some do not, but if you see or know of big bucks taken in your area, ask yourself, what are they doing that you aren't? In fact, ask them, most of the time, they are more than willing to help.

I didn't wait for the DNR to enforce QDM so I could go out and shoot one. I decided that I was going to work for it. I think that alot of hunters have a sense of entitlement. Some don't have the time, but they shouldn't complain either, they should be happy with what they get. There were times that I started wondering if it was worth it, but after that one shot, all those questions get answered.

[candiru]

MN may not have the size of bucks like we see on TV all the time. Maybe we should be thankful for what we have and that is: hunting that we don't have to open our wallets for every time we turn around, accessible land, still requires a little knowledge and skill, and good populations (at least in some areas). I believe keeping the baiting laws on the books and enforced also helps keep hunting from becoming more of just a "money sport". I was talking to a friend of mine (we are both about 40ish) and we both have now shot more deer than our fathers have. Sometimes we need to reflect on how good we really have it. If we need to shoot more does in some areas how about a mid-December anterless only hunt in those areas?

[ANYFISH]

As far as reducing the social standing of bucks if QDM happens isn't so far off in some circles. I already know some people that will not shoot a buck until 150 class. I'm sorry but my biggest is 120 inches and that is more than a respectable buck and would never look at it as small.

96trigger, you absolutely right best way to nice bucks is thru work, work,and more work. If people want to see more big bucks and they believe that is important they need to control what they shoot themselves. We shouldn't rely on the government to control us and take opportunities from those not interested in size. Besides contrary to popular belief if you let a deer pass it opportunity of survival is very good. We only shoot a 1/4 of our states deer population every year, that only 1 out of 4, pretty good odd's for the deer.

I do believe we should continue to shoot more does than bucks, but I not will to take opportunities away those whom only go out a couple of times each season. I send enough time in the woods where I can pass and still have opportunities.

THORN, as for as eliminating the all-season, I don't think that's a big deal. It will be now as it should have been before you can just buy a tag for each season and it will only cost like $3 more than the all season.

[Powerstroke]

Unfortunately for this discussion, the idea of QDM gets lost in translation.

QDM is Quality Deer Management. It doesn't say anything about huge bucks. Its about having a healthy deer herd with a proper balance of bucks-to-does and making decisions about harvest that will continue to support the ideas.

If someone makes a rule to not shoot anything over 150", then that is their own "trophy rule". A 120" buck is a very nice deer. I would shoot it and I'm a beilever in letting the little ones walk.

Personally my rule is "more than 6 points".

I think Earn-a-buck is a great idea. Its been discussed many times and the reason so many people are against it is they would rather shoot a spike buck than a plump doe just so they can say they tagged a buck. Thats the part I don't understand. I know 4 of these people very closely and I choose not to hunt with them anymore because our philosophies differ too much.

MN has such a rich history of hunting and deer hunting specifically. Like candiru said, we have it much better than our parents did. I've now shot more deer than my dad. He went almost 10 years without a deer once because of doe permits and such.

Now MN has a mentality that does should be rationed when it should really be the other way around. There are areas of the state where the population isn't the greatest, but in those ag/prairie areas, deer just don't do very well. Those areas are "lottery" zones now and will continue to be until the deer numbers improve.

96trigger- I really like your ideas. I do not wait for the state to tell me what I can do to improve the hunting. I have my own ideas about what I can do to benefit the deer herd. I try to make those decisions in the field and hope that of others agree that they will do the same.

I think deer management is moving in the direction of QDM. I don't want it to be about TROHPY management, I want it to be about herd management and I think thats what the DNR is starting to do. They used to be about numbers management and now that we have the numbers we can focus on quality.

[ANYFISH]

I do understand true QDM and think it is good, but difficult to practice widespread (private and public) because an area's deer herds within a zone can be very different. But like you said most people, I am guilty of it at times, of thinking quality buck managment is what QDM is.

[Thorn]

Nothing wrong with shooting a spike. Research has shown most spikes [not forked] have inferior racks. Not only that, culling them will help the habitat to carry quality deer.

MN does have certain situation hunting that accomodates taking does or antlerless without earn a buck games.

early season

intensive harvest

others? Land owner tags?

multi zone

all season

bonus

Heck with all of these different antlerless oppertunities why an earn a buck game, unless it's a rackaholic issue.

Or worse,

an anti in sheeps clothing trying to pit hunters against each other.

Look at Wisconsin who's hunter numbers declined dramatically to the earn a buck issue.

I'll tell ya what, I'd definantly go along with an earn a buck program if I can hunt deer with a dog again.

[candiru]

Earn a buck would be an enforcement nightmare. I can't remember the last time someone had looked at my deer at the registration station or even cared that I had the deer. MN hunters don't have a problem shooting does the way hunters in some of these other states do.

[papabear]

QDM is going to be a hot topic in years to come. It will mean size of bucks because that is how some people measure quality. When the winters return to normal the strategies will change some. The herd dynamics will change when the winters are cold and snowy and the wolves are abundant. We may return to doe permits in ares that havent seen them in a few years.

Reading this makes me believe that most of us here want a quality herd and believe the trophies are there if you are willing to work for them. What trips us up is the few who believe that other states have huge bucks parading around like super models because that is what they see on TV.

Land is not much of an issue to those willing to work for it. Again it is the ones who hunt 100 yds off the road and complain about all the people they see. I have hunted for many years and only two times hve had crowding problems in the spot I hunted. There are huge tracts of land that contain some nice deer if one is willing to go that extra mile litteraly.

I feel the DNR is trying to manage the deer and other wild life for the benenfit of the animals but the pressure from all over make it hard. Some want trophy deer and fish to come to them, others want meat, others want to brag about numbers, while still others want to see birds and no hunters and fishermen. It is all out there for us all if we work for it and open our eyes and see it. From what ive read a lot of us appreciate what we hve and are happy with it and that is very promising.

[Thorn]

Bonkers for Antlers

Interest in large deer stretches back thousands of years. The Lascaux cave of southern France contains images of large-antlered deer painted by Stone Age hunters 12,000 to 40,000 years ago.

From the 14th to 16th centuries, European nobles "went bonkers for huge antlers," according to Valerius Geist, retired professor of environmental science at the University of Calgary and a world-renowned expert in ungulate biology. European nobles lined their manor halls with mounts of huge red deer. They viewed the massive animals, says Geist, as an "expression of the quality of their land, the ability of a lord to produce something exceptional."

Unfortunately for peasant farmers, this antler obsession led to widespread destruction. According to Geist, hunting parties of 30 to 40 drunken nobles on horseback trampled standing crops, orchards, and vineyards as they followed their hounds in pursuit of stags. Often they forced peasants to abandon their harvest and help with the hunts. Geist says it was "an abuse so prevalent that it eventually led to a major eruption in social order." The ensuing Peasant War of 1524?25, he explains, set off a chain of revolts that disrupted Europe for 300 years and eventually led to the French Revolution.

--------------

Should Minnesota become like France ,I think I'd move back to TX...LOL! Besides, we need to boost farm crops instead of import from NAFTA, CAFTA.. what a farce! Stop paying farmers to grow natural areas, and do not reduce crop size.

The most deporable thing that MN has going against them is the firearm season is to short....period.

[Fishpondc]

Wow thorn, Its like you read my mind! Qdm is fine for private land owners in certain parts of the state. Its their right to do that. The problem I have is will hunting be for the rich, or will it be like today where the average person still has access to decent hunting? Land prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years, public land is crowded, paper company land that used to be open for public use is being leased or sold. Kids are already losing interest in fishing and hunting, and the antis, however kooky they are, are a powerful lobby to the non hunting majority of this country. I have a 10 year old daughter and a 5 year old son, and I wonder what the future brings for them?

[Thorn]

Wow thorn, Its like you read my mind! Qdm is fine for private land owners in certain parts of the state. Its their right to do that.

------------------

Why certain parts?

If there's problems with habitat, disease, population?

What gives a landowner "no right"?

If you happen to be a landowner the only thing certain is you also have the gift of certain inalienable rights.

Heck even I fought city hall and won, because of a disgruntled neighbor trying to tell me about what rights I have/not on my property.

[96trigger]

Powerstroke, I am a believer in QDM. I like to think that every time a pass a small buck it will make it through until next season. You said that you wouldn't look down on people shooting a 120 class buck, and I wouldn't either. However, as more and more people think that QDM is letting bucks get Boone and Crocket or even Pope and Young big, the 120 class bucks will eventually get looked down upon. Even at the whitetail expo in Owatonna, the DNR (I think) had an exhibit showing what a mature buck looked like and what one didn't. Tats great, but I think they get a little carried away tyring to get people to let them get 5-6 years old. My ratio of does to bucks is probably roughly 30:4 over the last 12 years. I can remember all 4 bucks that I shot. Numbers like that are QDM. In my area, does are very plentiful, and I totally agree that someone should shoot a doe if they are huntiing for meet, they should let the little bucks walk if they get a chance. I don't agree with shooting a small buck over a doe just because its a buck. However, I think that mentality is losing steam. I think that there are some old timers that still want to shoot anything with horns. I think where I am at the quality of the herd has increased dramatically. We have great genetics and have big deer. It amazes me how some of these deer seem to come out of the woodwork. I just don't want Minnesota to become a national powerhouse for big bucks. Every year I have students that go to Iowa to hunt bucks and I have to laugh. If they would just put in the time, they could shoot the ones up here. However, they are always the ones that can definitely afford to pay for the trip. I don't want people like that driving local hunters out of the woods they have hunted for years because Joe Blow came in with a 10 guys and 10 grand and leased up the land. I think its starting down here and I just don't like it, yet I still believe in maintaining the herd health and will continue to pass on small bucks and shoot does.

[Thorn]

And here in bold letters is Minnesota's biggest problem.

11/08/08 - 11/23/08

Deer hunt - Firearm - Zone 1A

500,00 hunters annually

roughly 240,000 to 270,000 deer harvested anuually

estimated deer population...1 billion, per my anecdotal observation

------------------

Deer Population At Record Levels

The message from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources this year seems to be 'there are lots of deer, please harvest them.' The DNR estimates that deer population in Minnesota is rising to record levels. In response, the DNR increased the number of antlerless deer permits by 43 percent this year.

'Basically, the deer population has come back remarkably well after the hard winters of 1995-1996 and 1996-1997,' said DNR Wildlife Research Biologist Mark Lenarz. According to Lenarz, the deer population grew more quickly in central and southern Minnesota than it did in northern Minnesota, but the DNR estimates that there are 1,113,000 deer in Minnesota. That is about as many deer as the DNR estimates there were in Minnesota during the population high-point of the early 1990s. It is almost twice as many deer as the DNR estimated during the population low-point Minnesota in 1997. After the harsh winters of the mid-1990s, the DNR estimated that there were 683,000 deer in Minnesota. Last year the DNR issued 50,070 antlerless deer permits in wildlife management zone 1, which includes most of northern Minnesota. This year they are issuing 71,850, the second highest number ever issued.

The DNR is taking these steps to control their deer population and avoid the problems that Wisconsin and Michigan have run into with their runaway deer populations. 'In Wisconsin, (the DNR) is really trying to get people to harvest antlerless deer in special hunting seasons, but some people don’t want to have two deer in their freezers,' said Lenarz. Even anecdotal evidence supports the idea that the deer population is rising. 'A lot of people are reporting seeing 15 deer in fields where they saw 10 deer last year.'

------------

so given the chance I'd shoot a spike buck, the odds are definantly great. Especially a spikle because the genetics will definantly hurt the gene pool for sometime to come.

I'd like for some of you to do some research as to what causes bucks to grow small racks like spikes.

Actually I'll tell ya, it's from overpopulation.

With the overabundance of deer the best way to cull the herd isn't with sharpshooters. The firearms season in all areas needs to be extended so the weekend warriors can get a decent hunt, more people will be able to get a hunting opportunity ...period.

you can shoot 200,000 does a year, but you havn't really accomplished much. The reason the tags say antlerless is to also kill yearlings [except an antlerd one on a antlerless tag] and fawns too.

That is where QDM starts...you need to extend the season

or we'll all keep paying "THE MAN" to do it for us.

[B. Amish]

 Originally Posted By: Thorn

I'd like for some of you to do some research as to what causes bucks to grow small racks like spikes.

Actually I'll tell ya, it's from overpopulation.

I've done the research. Spikes don't equal bad genetics. Trying to control genetics in a free ranging deer heard is impossible.

[Thorn]

This study was based on a deer herd in TX. It was examined from 1974-1999

-------------

White-tailed Deer

Genetic and Environmental Interaction in White-tailed Deer

Conclusions

How much of antler growth is genetic, and how much is nutritional?

All antler growth is genetically based and environmentally influenced. Nutrition is an environmental influence. In order to grow deer with large antlers, a manager should manage for the best genetic deer possible, and simultaneously manage the habitat for the best nutrition possible. This will insure those deer reach their genetic potential. In order to improve habitat for most of the Hill Country, many deer must be removed from the range. While harvesting deer, why not select for higher-quality antlers by removing poor-quality bucks (including yearlings)?

The genetic makeup of an individual deer may be masked by optimum nutritional conditions. As mentioned in the overview of this study, there is a group of deer called "swing deer" that performs poorly during drought years, and performs well during the good years. "Swing deer" slow management results. What the land managers and hunters must remember is that there is another group of deer that performs well even under the most stressful of conditions. This latter group of deer contains the bucks that should be left on the range for breeding, whereas the former group of deer should be removed from the population.

Antler characteristics can be improved by selecting for animals that perform well under adverse conditions, as opposed to animals that perform well under optimum conditions.

The best time to make selection in a deer herd is during times of nutritional stress (e.g., drought). These times make the "swing deer" show their true colors (spikes), making them easier to select for removal.

Management Implications

Antler traits are heritable; therefore, selection will work. The degree of success is directly proportional to the intensity of selection placed on the herd.

Selection based on yearling antler development can increase herd potential.

Recommendations or regulations that impose antler restrictions and offer protection to spike-antlered yearling bucks will effectively reduce future antler potential in a deer herd. For example, if your hunting club restricts harvest of any buck with less than 6 points, you will see a reduction in antler quality over time.

"You can starve the antlers off a deer with good genetic potential, but no amount of feed will produce big antlers on deer with poor genetic potential." -- Dr. John Williams

[B. Amish]

Was this study done on a property that had a FENCE? How old were these spike antlered bucks? What percentage of genes that produce large antlers comes from the father and what percentage comes from the mother? Are Texas deer the same as Minnesota deer?

IF you think you can control genetics by eliminating inferior deer, then you should also let every superior deer die of old age so it has every oppurtunity to pass on its genetics.

Young bucks disperse the area where they were born. They sometimes travel many miles. This is natures way of keeping the gene pool diverse. It makes it tough to control genetics when there is no fence and the deer don't stay in one spot.

There are other factors that influence antler size. When a deer goes into the antler growing season under sized it will put all of it energy toward improving its body health before it puts the energy towards antler growth.

Minnesota bucks have three main reasons for going into the spring and summer under sized.

One is winter. The second is being born late as a fawn. The third is being worn down from a long rut. We as hunters can't control winter. But we can help to control the last two by balancing the sex ratio.

The more the does outnumber the bucks, the higher the number of does that won't get bred during the first rut. This will lead to later born fawns and worn out bucks. Which will lead to smaller racks.

Bucks don't start to show their true genetic potential until they are at least 3 1/2 years old. How many bucks in MN ever get to that age? You shouldn't be judging the genetic potential of 1 1/2 year old deer.

[Thorn]

 Originally Posted By: B. Amish

 Originally Posted By: Thorn

I'd like for some of you to do some research as to what causes bucks to grow small racks like spikes.

Actually I'll tell ya, it's from overpopulation.

I've done the research. Spikes don't equal bad genetics. Trying to control genetics in a free ranging deer heard is impossible.

First off the research is showing it isn't completly impossible.

Although, I'm not sure how much un-impossible that would be.

MN needs to extend the firearms season.

It is viable though to manage deer so that the habitat is going to sustain a healthy population without dire stress to the herd.

Right now for me, if it's brown it's down.

------------------

I grabbed this from an BWA article.

Well then, is our Minnesota deer herd headed in the right direction? Let’s take a serious look at that question. It is well known that during the mid 80s, Minnesota had it all. We had the premium genetics, premium habitat, premier ranking in the outdoor magazines and were even No.1 in the record books. Consider this: Most of the 50 states will never have what it takes to make even the “top ten,” yet Minnesota was at the top of the “best of the best” list. Wow! It takes a very unique deer resource to do that. That’s how superb Minnesota’s whitetail potential is.

I love my home state, and I’ll be the first to say that Minnesota still has great genetics and habitat. And we still have some decent deer hunting here. But, over the last 20 years I’ve watched as Minnesota has slowly and continually fallen from grace on the “best of” deer state list. And today, on the national level, Minnesota is not even mentioned with the likes of Iowa, Illinois or Kansas; and worse yet, Minnesota is rarely even mentioned on the top ten list anymore. We’ve gone from “top dog” to middle of the road, plain and simple. And I’ve yet to see an example in my lifetime where going from great to mediocre was a good thing.

Quite frankly, making the actual list is not important to me. But, having deer hunting that does justice to Minnesota’s “enormous” potential is very important to all of us. Our deer herd has what it takes to be the “best of the best,” but we’ve continually drifted away from that lofty status. And for me there is little doubt that this has been the result of 30 years of an unchanged peak rut hunting strategy.

Increasingly, Minnesotan’s are recognizing that today’s deer herd is much different from 30 years ago. We have plenty of deer now, so we no longer need to grow the herd. Yet, almost unbelievably, Minnesota still uses the 1970’s peak rut hunting framework which was designed to both grow the herd, and maximize the buck kill...neither of which is needed today. It’s a classic example of “overkill,” and our fall from grace proves it.

[Thorn]

 Originally Posted By: B. Amish

IF you think you can control genetics by eliminating inferior deer, then you should also let every superior deer die of old age so it has every oppurtunity to pass on its genetics.

I hav to go to work now, so I'll leave this open....

This was in the previous article.

The best time to make selection in a deer herd is during times of nutritional stress (e.g., drought). These times make the "swing deer" show their true colors (spikes), making them easier to select for removal.

edit to add, you mention stress in MN with winter being one factor...TX has killer summers. Just the same but quite opposit. But I'm sure MN deer adapt better to cold than TX deer do to heat and drought....I know I did.

[B. Amish]

 Originally Posted By: Thorn

The best time to make selection in a deer herd is during times of nutritional stress (e.g., drought). These times make the "swing deer" show their true colors (spikes), making them easier to select for removal.

Yes, but he never says the age of the spikes. If these spikes are 5 1/2 years old, then yes there are inferior. But again, 99% of the bucks in MN never come close to reaching a mature age so we can judge their genetic potential.

[B. Amish]

 Originally Posted By: Thorn

First off the research is showing it isn't completly impossible.

Although, I'm not sure how much un-impossible that would be.

MN needs to extend the firearms season.

Again, was this research done on a ranch with a fence or in a free rangin herd?

Also, what genes are the does passing on that are contributing to antler size? And how can a hunter judge a doe to know if she is producing big antlered offspring.

[Thorn]

On the free range studied deer in TX, it was on the Kerr WMA I believe.

As far as a spike being inferior, I believe they do hurt the potential of deer in MN too. There's no question that genetics does play a factor even in antler growth. It's been proven time and again.

A 5 year old buck isn't hard to find anymore especialy in MN.

Aerial surveys and ground expeditors are key facto in population counts. It even says so on MNDNR.

The population is over 1 million and roughly 240,000 annually harvested. I think lots of bucks may have eluded hunters. Given there's annually 700,000 plus deer still hiding somewhere.

As far as a doe passing along genes of antlers, I believe some people have shot some....LOL

But not really a determining factor since that's what bucks do best, love that Roger Raglin line...It's their sole purpose. Many bred does were studied and still found the spike sire line was still lacking superior antler growth.

I'll talk to you later

-----------------

Age of Doe

No Kerr WMA studies were specifically designed to determine the effect of dam age on antler production. However, a review of data from the Kerr deer-pen studies indicated that age of the doe had no effect. When age of doe was analyzed by study, no relationship of age to spike production was found. The analysis did show that large numbers of spikes for all age classes were produced by spike-antlered sires.

[Fishpondc]

And walleyes don't bite in the summer because their teeth fall out... only kidding, just making a point! There are plenty of magazines that show deer that were 1 1/2 year old spike, only to grow big antlers, if thats the reason a guy hunts. Doesn't the dnr manage our herd for numbers and overall health, instead of trophys like more southern/agricultural states

[Thorn]

 Originally Posted By: Fishpondc

And walleyes don't bite in the summer because their teeth fall out... only kidding, just making a point! There are plenty of magazines that show deer that were 1 1/2 year old spike, only to grow big antlers, if thats the reason a guy hunts. Doesn't the dnr manage our herd for numbers and overall health, instead of trophys like more southern/agricultural states

well the problem with those spikes is that genetically, no matter how much goodies they eat, they never grow into a superior monstrosity. I think it's usually under 150 class, but who's counting points? As far as how the DNR wanted management to be, just bit 'em in the caboose. Lots of changes agin will be on the regs this year. Some new management practices may sound good, but they'll be based on JUNK SCIENCE. Such as was the case of the decision of MNAG department to throw away meat from being given away due to deer containing led fragment.

The MN deer density has been found to be prohibiting certain species of plants from growing..period. The deer in MN are wiping out the habitat, per studies from Matt Norton and University of Minnesota forest ecologist Lee Frelich.

There are also studies by the UMN showing that the genetics of superior bucks are declining due to overpopulation stress.