Telling size of fish with electronics

[Jim W]

I'd say this thread is quickly approaching getting "zapped"!!!
Keep the personal attacks etc, out of it!
Opinions are fine if not directed towards anyone!!
SOme of you seem to invest more time in picking fights and waisting space. If you think your not being watched........

Back to fishing and the main topic at hand!

Keep the rods bendin'!!!!

Jim W

[Jim W]

I'd say this thread is quickly approaching getting "zapped"!!!
Keep the personal attacks etc, out of it!
Opinions are fine if not directed towards anyone!!
SOme of you seem to invest more time in picking fights and wasting space. If you think your not being watched........

Back to fishing and the main topic at hand!

Keep the rods bendin'!!!!

Jim W

[Surface Tension]

Theres so many "over night" experts in here with such strong beliefs. So some of you pup's got your hands on a flasher and in no time at all you got it down pat. Well if this old dog had your attitude about learning and change I'd still be checkin depht with a rope and anchor. The more you use and learn from useing a sounder the more you will realize how much you dont know.
I've been useing sounders for 27 years so when some kid here tries to tell me how "it is" you can see how it doesnt go over well. That dosent mean Im not open to tring new things and adapting my methods. Were not all going to agree here but disagree respectfully!

Now heres a litle tidbit for ya. An air bladder being pinged by a sounder is like a drum beat. So if I take a stick and hit a drum and the sound carries. Now take a stick and hit an anchor, which sound carries farther? the drum. Which is more dense? the anchor. Which would return a stronger signal? the drum.
Have you ever watched air bubbles come off the bottom with your vex? Theres nothing there but air, so why does it show up? because it has a different density then water. So as you see just because something has more density it dosent always mean more of an intense signal.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 01-13-2003).]

[icehousebob]

Surface Tension, Have to agree with you about experience telling on fishing issues. From what I've read of your posts, you're objecive and open to new ideas. Not like an uncle of mine; he was the last to go from a chisel to a hand auger, only fished crappies on one lake, used a hand line, and insisted you had to fish 15 inches off the bottom. He liked to tell everyone he had 45 years of experience but I always thought[but never told him] that he had one year of experience repeated 45 times. Thanks for being a voice of reason here. Bob

[Ice Hole]

All I gotta say, is Al Linder, the Vexilar manual, and most people who try it will say you can tell fish size. 'nuff said. Its not JUST me or a few "punks" who don't know what they are doing. If you don't think your can, great, I don't care, cause I know I can. Just cause you can't doesn't mean it isn't impossible.

[Steve Foss]

Tough sometimes to separate fact from assumption. People can see the same things and come to different conclusions. People can see different things and come to the same conclusions.

I knew everything about everything when I was 20. The older I get, the more I learn that I don't know much, and the simplest and fairest way to post on this forum is to say "this is my experience," not "this is how it IS."

For people who use respect, I'll debate in a friendly way all day. For rudeniks, forget it.

[Eyewitness]

There are some great points being made on this thread. The most important one I think is to keep an open mind. IF... you want to learn something that is. A great example is this. I have this vexi thing down pretty darn good. I'm confident I can tell size of fish below me (ice fishing only) and have really learned to tune in to what the fish is doing below me. This has resulted in my being able to induce strikes from fish that are in a nuetral or negative feeding mood. Now, that being said, I picked up my copy of the InFish Ice Fishing Guide and reread the article in it about the comparison between the Vexi's and the LX3 by Marcum. Funny thing.... I read it the first time looking for info. and opinion on the Marcum unit and read right through some really important points on my vexilar usage. Rereading the same article it pointed out some very obvious, but often overlooked tips on how to read fish in and BELOW your initial bottom reading while fishing on a sloped or rocky bottom. Having fished these situations many times while ice fishing, I have been missing out on fish due to my not understanding what I was really seeing. Not any more..... The example in the article was that your transducer signal will read both the shallowest bottom reading and the deepest bottom reading inside the cone area. Conceivably, a fish could enter the cone at or below the highest bottom reading, or "top edge" of your visable red bottom signal and if you have the gain set too high, will merely blend in with the bottom reading and you'll never see it. Turn the sensitivity down so the shallowest bottom signal is still showing red, but the deepest part of your bottom signal shows green and suddenly you will be able to spot fish when they enter your cone deeper than the shallowest bottom reading you have. This applies to when you're parked on top of a rock over a relatively flat bottom as well......Hey, who says an old dog can't learn new tricks. I wish more articles had more direct user knowledge like that in them. Now that I think about it, wouldn't it be great if Vexilar or Lowrance put on some seminars explaining their products and how to get the most use out of them? You'd think it would be in their best interest.

[Swill]

Heck with guess on a flasher but a aqua vu!!!

Swill

[Ice Hole]

As anyone knows, an aqua view is by no means a replacement for a flasher. And to add to that, size is distorted by an aquaview ...so telling the size of a fish can be tough by looking at a monitor. A perch 2" from the lense can look mammoth.

[This message has been edited by Ice Hole (edited 01-13-2003).]

[Mr. Pike1]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I enjoyed the conversation and gained some new information from users that "may" help me better determine what lie beneath the ice. Anyone who has read this thread already knows my science based "opinion" so I will say no more about that...Concerning the ability to tell the size of fish by the sound of the clicking from the vex that was recently mentioned I shall not even begin to comment on that...I do no one thing for sure and that is by the tone of my soon to be wife that I best get offline if you know what I mean boys.

[Toad]

So Ice Hole, what you're saying is, it's easier to judge fish species and size by a red or green colored line than a video-imposed image on a real-time monitor. Incidentally, fish size is not distorted by an underwater camera. (Unless you suffer from "walleye-vision." ) Rather, it's our own eyes that lacking a solid object of reference, find it difficult to judge relative size. Yet if you've held enough large bluegills, large walleyes, large pike, etc in your hands, you also realize that certain physiological differences set large fish apart from the masses. These differences are easily discernable on a video monitor.

You know, fishing, and especially talking fishing with your fellow anglers is supposed to be fun, Ice Hole. You seem awfully bitter, angry for someone appartently so young, so apparently skilled and learned in the ways of fishing. Blatant contradiction of most everything you hear from guys on this HSOforum speaks volumes of your demeanor. If you're even half so skilled as you claim to be, you'd be wise to open your mind a bit. I promise you that the best anglers of our time all share this trait in common, always listening, analyzing and assimilating new and different information. I absolutely guarantee you'll receive much more positive feedback from most of us if you'd only try to keep an open mind, and consider other's observations with at least a modicum of intelligent thought.

So lighten up a bit. And remember, fishing is fun. It's not this big dog-eat-dog affair you seem to believe. Heck, I get just as big a kick out of the info and especially the enthusiasm espoused by the first time angler on this HSOforum as the true professional. Enjoy your fishing.

-a friend called Toad

[Guest]

YA you betcha MR. Pike1

The wife's got you right where she wants you, and you stay if she says so.

[This message has been edited by morriscode (edited 01-14-2003).]

[Dave]

Interesting thread........ it's fairly easy to conclude known knowledge about how one posts their response(s). I'll leave it at that.

[Guest]

Since interpretations of what you see leads to assumptions, odds are good at best size evaluation is an educated guess.

A pike eyeballing a jig upward may not present enough surface area to look any larger then a average perch? Yet it could be a hog, it is easy to get fooled no matter how many times you see it. The cone and density will make a big difference it what you see.

You can make educated assumptions based on what you expect to see down their, but after that it is still speculation.

Measuring the size of a fish with present electronics capabilities.....MMMMM....I think is a bit of a stretch at this time, soon maybe?

------------------
Ed "Backwater Eddy" Carlson..><sUMo>

Backwater Guiding
"Ed on the RED"
(701)-281-2300

[email protected]

http://ed-carlson.fishingbuddy.com

[deadeye]

I think i'm with swill on this one, why guess when you can see what's down there. I think that the aqua veiw is going to be my new toy next year. i love flashers don't get me wrong, but if you can see what's going on down there that adds to the level of excitement of fishing. I love it when i'm at a little trout pond and i can see the fish come up and take the lure. fishing that way is like hunting and fishing combined you can see what is coming in and you can see if it takes the lure or not. just my veiw on it
deadeye

[Guest]

Correct me if I am wrong, as I have known to be in the past, but isn't a fish's body structure made up of flesh, muscle, and bones, being the same as a human and a solid mass?

The way I have always understood the concept of a flasher was that it is an echo sounder made up of pulses and when the pulses strike something denser then water they are reflected back to the unit and converted by the unit into a reading on the flasher dial. This is a very simple explanation of course.

So my point is, wouldn't the solid body structure of the fish reflect the pulses before the signal was able to reach the air bladder? I have alot of problems with reading my unit when there is plankton rising in the evenings from a mud bottom as the screen typically turns green and sometimes even orange making my jig and other fish hard to distinguish. And plankton is almost microscopic. I know I get the readings like that because there are such strong concentrations of plankton, but still, I am getting a reading of something that can hardly be detected by the naked eye.

Also, when reading through the owners manual I found it says stronger signals will be indicated with the more horizontal surface area. A Pike has a wider back then that of a Sunfish. A Walleye has a wider back then that of a Perch. So wouldn't it make sense that a Walleye appears as a stronger signal then that of a Perch?

thanks, Westlin

[Guest]

Ya gotta remember us "young pups" grew up with more technology than you older guys thought was possible, thus the learning of these instruments was also sped up. I think we came across a whole new topic here but it is still very interesting.

I know if you gave my Dad the newest electronic gizmo, and gave me the same thing, I would have it figured out 10 times quicker than he would. Now I am not saying that you older folks dont know squat about electronics, but give the younger generation a chance to refine what you have already discovered. And keep an open head about things, thats what my Dad taught me.

But God forbid someone younger than you figures out something new on a piece of equipment that you have used your whole life, we must be crazy huh? This is a real sign of the times we live in. Could I tear down and rebuild a carb. like the ol' man can.....no frickin way....can the ol' man fix a computer, digital camera, or other electronic device like I....probably not. Would I be completely wrong to say that I could learn a piece of equipment faster than he can.....I dont think so.

morriscode

[fiskyknut]

Well I know for a fact that I {don't know about anyone else though} can usually tell if I have a dinky fish or a nicer fish with my old Zercom CC. I'm not saying I can tell the difference between a 12 incher and a 16 incher, but a 12incher and a 24 incher, 9 out of 10 times I'll say oooooh thats a nicer one, and up comes a nicer one! Maybe those Vexilars are incapable of this capability, or maybe it's just me? I have used this flasher for about 8 years, before that I had a fl-8, before that I had a Si-tex 3 color, and before that the old green boxes had served me well since the mid-seventies. I would'nt trade my Zercom for anything out there now, maybe someday something better will be made availiable, but till then I'm still gonna use the one I prefer. Yes I have used them all including the new Marcum, fl-8slt's and the fl-18's. Adjustable zoom feature on Marcum is nice, but not enough of a reason for me to switch yet.

The gospel according to Fisky!

[Eyewitness]

Eddie, I have to tend to agree with you...to a point. I think one has to look at all the surrounding circumstances and conditions prior to making any judgement calls about what you may or may not be seeing below your ice hole. For instance, what species your fishing for, how far off the bottom the fish your reading is, etc... If I'm on LOW fishing walleyes and repeatedly see and catch walleyes and saugers from 1" to 2ft. off the bottom, I can be reasonably assured that what I'm seeing in that same zone, all things being equal and unchanged (gain), is going to be fairly consistent, and has after a while taught me to distinguish differences in fish size and behavior. Is it right 100% of the time. Not a chance. Can I be pretty confident in my judgement most of the time. You bet. That's what usually enables me to catch fish two for every one, compared to the next guy who's just kicking back paying half a$$ed attention to what's going on down there. Kind of like a video game of sorts. Pay attention and learn what's up, and you get to go to the next level. Keep making the same mistakes, and you don't advance. I've fished with a lot of great hooks who have tons invested invested in their electronics and never learn to use them to their advantage. Turn it on and run auto mode, etc...The post on WC about "what makes a good tournament partner" has a reply that makes good sense. Some fisher folks are technical, and some are logical. Most aren't both. Hence, all the varying opinions. Gotta love this sport!

[Pig_sticka]

fish do seem small outside the cone yes but when it is right under you and your graphing a 3ft blob down there on your bait and it is only one fish, it will be huge. even if it does just hit the swim bladder(which i still dont agree on) usually at some point for the fish to hit the jig it has to be on the jig though right i have seen one inch blobs that were small perch, i have seen foot blobs that were nice crappies, i have seen 2 foot blobs that were northerns.
camera underwater is a good idea, i just cant fork out too much money

[This message has been edited by GullGuide (edited 01-14-2003).]

[Ice Hole]

Toad- I am not bitter or "mad". If you think an aquaview is a replacement for a vex, so be it. From my experiences with an underwater camera (owned one for a year) I could not tell the difference between between sizes too well. Granted a 4oz sunny will have a different shape than a pounder, but up to a little over 1/2lb they have the same body shape(in the lake I fish) This applied to just about every species I saw. I could tell you if it was a dink, or if it was huge. Thats about it. I could tell the same if not more from the flasher. --those are just my experiences. So toad, tell me me, what I am not keeping an open mind about? Seems most of the people saying you can't 'this n that' and 'thats impossible' blah blah blah are the close-minded ones here. First time angler? I would be willing to bet I have fished more in the last 10 years than you have in 30+. Don't assume things sir toad. I know you are "wiser" and "older", but ****, totally decrediting someone because you are upset that someone so young is trying so hard to argue his point shows your what I call "old man pride" through and through. But, I put up with it, and keep on fishin. You, sir toad, should have gotten the jist of this thread before making that post.

[Guest]

Right on Eyewitness, I read through that post too. Some people are too stuck in thier ways to learn something new, heck it seems some people dont even want to learn. To each thier own, but I prefer to keep an open mind and learn, thats what makes us better.

morriscode