Comments for the DNR

[HunterLee]

220's are dangerous and need to be set with care. I ran about a dozen this year mostly for coon's, otters, and tried my luck with fishers. We don't have many but i did see one during bow hunting. My dog checks traps with me and she is yet to get into one, she has ran over the top of them, and this year we were looking for some beaver sets and she found someone's baited bucket set, she sniffed it but i think she know's not to put her head in it, but she woulda really had to try, she is a fair sized lab, i don't worry about her getting caught. I think most dogs no enough to steer clear of them. Trail sets to me don't seem like a threat to dogs, as they would have to have their heads down and with a few guide sticks dogs should just jump over the set. I did manage to snag a few cats that had no reason to be out on my trapline, but its one way to save the local birds. It doesnt sound right, but cats belong at home or in the barn.

[gorrilla]

Walleye 101, I wasn't aiming my comments to one guy in particular. I just want sportsmen to be careful when using the terms restricting and banning when it refers to trapping.

There are enough wacko's out there trying to keep the anti-trapping talk going until all of the U.S. is closed to anything short of a wooden box with a stick propping it open...

Several of the sets you described were what I would term as reasonable or acceptable to most trappers, I just was trying to point out we could get to that point with education NOT legislation.

As a side note, I don't quite see the blind unbaited trail set as a cure-all nor as efficient harvester of larger target furbearers(ie, raccoons, fisher, bobcats). Not to say they don't have their place but to totally replace a baited cubby isn't reasonable IMO.

Like any educated trapper will tell you, every set has its proper time and place and you need to know when to apply it. This train of thought is more and more important for several reasons on multi-use land...

[walleye101]

gorrila,

I wish I could be as optimistic on eduction over regulation. Unfortunately, I will respectfully disagree.

There is always a segment that will not be educated, and will continue to do the unethical thing even if they know the risk. As long as that set is a legal set in that location some will continue to use it regardless of the potential consequences. And that will continue to give trappers a bad name, and the Wackos you refer to, more ammunition against us.

I know some will argue that legislating a solution will not work either, because the unethical trapper will just break the law. But I see a huge difference. If this is no longer a legal set, for the time or place, and the unfortunate thing happens, the unethical trappers actions no longer represent the rest of us.

[walleye101]

Quote:

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As a side note, I don't quite see the blind unbaited trail set as a cure-all nor as efficient harvester of larger target furbearers(ie, raccoons, fisher, bobcats).

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Just a tip: I suspect you are right on bobcat and fisher given their habits, but if you are not using the 220 in blind trails for coon you are missing out on an extremely efficient and very selective set. I hate to give away secrets but this fits well with your education suggestion.

When running land lines the blind trail 220 set produces the majority of my coon. By being observant you can easily learn to spot the locations. The set is quick, no bulky plastic buckets or heavy boxes, no messing with bait, low visibility, no attracting junk (skunks, possum, house cats, etc.), and nice clean dry coon for skinning. Start using it and you will quickly see the advantages over cubbie buckets.

This safe and efficient set is why I absolutely do not want to see 220's banned for land sets.

[gorrilla]

W101, its not that I haven't used the blind sets your describing, its just that I don't think they can replace cubbies. Like I said, the if the time and place is right, either set can be "the" set to use. I also don't think it makes much sense that you are recommending legistation and also thinking trail sets with 220's are ok. Yes I know about jump sticks, personally I didn't set larger body grips on public growing up in southern MN. I just think restricting them on ALL public land is a broad dangerous brush. We need to be responsible trappers, hunters, and educators when it comes to this topic IMO.

[walleye101]

I am doing my best on the education part. The blind trail set 220 is a safe set, because it is very selective for coon. I run my own hounds on the same land where I run blind trail set, with no worry. A 220 properly set in an open trail, with a stabalizer will sit only 8-9 inches high. The smallest rabbit hound or lap dog will go over the top every time, no jump stick necessary.

It is the bait in the cubbie set that causes a dog to try to squeeze his head through the 7x7 opening.

Trappers know what the problem is. It is not the 220 trap, but the type of set it is used in.

This problem will not go away on it's own. If trappers don't fess up to the problem and suggest practical solutions to reduce this risk, others will. If others dictate the solution we will stand a much higher probability of loosing the 220 option on land.

[terryt]

Raising the daily pheasant limit would not take effect until after the 16th day of the season so u will have to worry about it effecting the first two weeks

[BLACKJACK]

Quote:

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This problem will not go away on it's own. If trappers don't fess up to the problem and suggest practical solutions to reduce this risk, others will. If others dictate the solution we will stand a much higher probability of loosing the 220 option on land.

---

I like your attitude Walleye 101!!! Responsible trap setting willl go along ways!! Unfortuantely, all it takes is a few bad apples/lazy trappers to make a bad name for all trappers. The encounter I had with my dog and a conibear trap - and it was bigger than 7x7 - was a cattail fringe along a gravel road where the guy had set it up in a 'cattail run' where the coons were going thru, it bloodied my dogs nose. I learned my lesson, I realize that its an easy spot for trappers to cover by vehicle, since then I put my dogs on heel when I'm hunting near a road. I've also learned since then that it was an illegal set....

[gorrilla]

Blackjack, your not even talking about a legal set currently (poacher not a trapper)...

How would changing laws, help change someone who already doesn't follow the laws??????

Don't punish, the vast majority of trappers for these stupid ignorant peoples' actions...

Do we ban driving because some idiots decide to drive drunk??

Do we close deer hunting because some jerks decide to shine lights and poach??

That story and logic don't apply to this argument....

The debate is about changing LEGAL use of the 220 body grip trap.

[walleye101]

That is exactly the point gorrilla,

If Blackjacks dog were killed by the illegal set, it is extremely unfortunate for Blackjack, but it is the result of an illegal act and is not representative of legal and ethical trappers. If authorities are called the poacher gets a ticket, and since the set is illegal he is also liable for possible litigation.

But, if some novice or lazy trapper and sets a 220 baited cubby set in a high use public area and whacks someones dog, it is just a poor decision. When the impending confrontation occurs the trappers logical excuse is "sorry but it is a perfectly legal set, and this is public land". If authorities are called they can only confirm that it is a legal set.

The second incident reflects poorly on all legal and ethical trappers.

[gorrilla]

What I keep seeing is the "easy" route...

If we choose to limit or ban trapping it seems easy for the non trappers. Problem solved. I hoping from this thread some guys realize that proper use of the great trapping tool(220 body grip trap) will ensure its leagality for the future.

The problems of restricting use is, the antis are gaining in leaps in bounds throughout the country in putting a halt to trapping. My biggest point is ALL PUBLIC LAND IN THE STATE IS NOT THE SAME.

To say something like limiting the 220 to only private land scares me. It would be taking away another major tool from the trappers arsenal. I would guess the next step is all conibears to protect cats, then large legholds, etc. If a fellow sportsman cannot see that this is the so-called "easy" route and not the best solution, then they have blinders on to only their hobby. Which IMO is not smart.

I will stand by my opinion of more education and not regulation being the best route to take to reduce the conflicts between sports and risks to dogs. With less and less trappers out there, we need to do an even better job of passing down wise use of trapping knowledge to combat the growing problem of intensive use of public land.

[protrapper]

As a full time trapper, tournament angler, and grouse guide, I have to say it's really great to see sports folks blasting each other. This is the exact topic PETA folks jump on. Believe me I have been to the DNR meetings and they have been heated, and they brought up the fact it's dog owners against trappers {hunting dog owners}. Wasn't to long ago the duck and pheasent hunters were crying for preadotar control. Where all in this together don't give the anti's more ammo. Also I have had dogs caught in traps before and where all released, though none where 220's but I have had close calls with 220's. Trust I know the feeling I had thousands of dollars invested in a lab I had Dokkens train and my vet overdosed on meds and tried to cover it up..

[BLACKJACK]

protrapper, following your line of reasoning, no matter what issue comes up, no matter how absurb, if its put forward by a hunter/fisherperson, we shouldn't disagree with it or debate it, just accept it as good. Crossbows - good, bring them on. Two lines, good. Three lines, sure. Four lines, sounds good, it won't hurt the fish resource any more than one line, thats why we have limits right? A four month pheasant season, great. Heck it only takes one rooster for every ten hens, lets have a six month pheasant season!!!

My point is that not every issue is black and white, it needs to be discussed, what makes sense to one person may be ridiculous to another person, by discussing it we can educate each other. Thats the way this trapping debate has been so far, as a non-trapper I've learned about proper methods of setting conibears and trappers have learned that it only takes a few bad apples to ruin their reputations, education may be needed of future trappers.

As far as the antis getting ammunition from this type of discussion, if all hunters and trappers and sportsmen got together and held hands and sang the benefits of trapping, would it make a difference to the antis? No. They already have all the info they want to see and believe.

[BLACKJACK]

protrapper, I was thinking about this some more last night.

1) By discussing connibear traps and promoting proper trapper education, you make beginning trappers aware that there is a right and wrong way to set connibear traps. Hopefully when that young trapper, whether they are 12 or 22 gets a connibear trap for the first time, they won't go out and just set it anywhere, they'll think back to what they read or learned about proper trap setting.

2) Speaking of anti-hunters, nothing we say here will sway their minds, but I guarantee you that when Joe Hunter from Lakeville, the guy that doesn't hunt much but talked his better half into getting a hunting dog, takes his bird dog and family pet out to hunt and it gets killed by a connibear, you've made the wife and kids into big time anti-hunters. Lets not be making any more antis if we can help it!

[gorrilla]

Its funny Blackjack, when nobody argues back you start to debate your self.

[walleye101]

Sounds to me like Blackjack has given this issue some serious thought. He is right about not worrying the antis, but avoid alienating those who have not already formed negative opinions about trapping.

[gorrilla]

I guess I'm getting frustrated with the close minded arguments towards restricting traps.

[Scott K]

I have been following this post since the beggining, humorous, and entertaining at times. Myself being an outsider to both of these issues, since I dont trap, or hunt with dogs. I can see all your concerns, and they are all good concerns! This is what I sugguest, I know by reviewing this entire post would offer some info, but what I think would help is if a trapper would spend the time to post the how to rules and educate the rest of us the correct ways of trapping, then post the wrong ways of trapping. And being nice about it, recomendations and tips to dog hunters on how to keep their pets safe when in public land hunting, where there might be some traps set.

Keeping in mind this is PUBLIC LAND FOR ALL TO ENJOY!!!

On the other hand have the hunters list concers on and tips on where they hunt that they would not like to see a trap set,( such as right off the main trail, or where ever) maybe use this forum to educate each other, rather than arguing inwich being married most of us know that doesnt get us no where!

FYI I used to hunt dogs, and used to trap, and when I did I never gave much thought about the other, but now after reading this, I should have. I guess what I am saying is I have learned something from reading this post, and think others would also!

Just my .02!

[ruster]

I have followed this post for awhile and it is with a heavy heart i have now become a part of it. Yesterday my 7 year old english cocker, Sydney, was killed by a land set conibear trap. She was easily the best hunting dog I have ever owned, great on pheasants,grouse, any bird that I hunted. A little background, I live on 40 acres about 3 miles from town. It is a rural but more houses pop up every year. my dogs are kenneled when no one is home, but are out when we're here. This dog never leaves the yard, but yesterday she did,why? who knows but she paid with her life. We looked all afternoon in a driving rain with no luck, getting more concerned by the minute. About 4:00 the neighbor called and said he found her, DEAD in a set about 1/4 mile from my house. You have no idea the hurt I felt.I know many of you will blame me for letting her roam, but that is simply not the case here and I do not care to debate that. I know I have some responsiblity in this. But there is no way this dog should be dead beacause of a moments curiosity on a spring day. I am a former trapper and support trapping, but in no way will I support any kind of land set conibears, they are indiscriminate killers of all animals that come in contact. All of this because of a careless/reckless set on private land. So, no land set conibears, anywhere, anytime, for any purpose, period. Any land sets that I find in the future I will trip, maybe saving someone else from thehurt and anger that I feel today. On another note the trapper was my daughters boyfriend, their relationship is now irrepairably damaged due to this incident. Sorry for the long post but I needed to get it out there. Thanks for listening.

[jlm]

Ruster, very sorry to hear about your dog! I realize that you are upset and for very good reason. However, I am going to encourage you to abide by the law and tampering with traps that are legally set could really get you in an un-needed bind or at a minimum, in a very uncomfortable situation if the trapper catches you. Of course if you are talking about your own private land...that is a entire different issue. You can do as you please there. Welcome to FM and again, sorry for your lost dog!

[walleye101]

Very sorry to hear of your loss. There is no reason for a set like that to be out there this time of year. What is he doing trapping year around?

[GunDr]

Eventually the PETA law makers will go after hunting.

----------------------------------------------------------

Inhumane Trapping Prevention Act (Introduced in House)

HR 1691 IH

110th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 1691

To end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

March 26, 2007

Mrs. LOWEY (for herself, Mr. SHAYS, Mr. CROWLEY, Mr. DEFAZIO, Mr. GRIJALVA, Mr. FRANK of Massachusetts, Ms. BERKLEY, and Mr. MCNULTY) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce, and in addition to the Committees on Ways and Means, Foreign Affairs, and Judiciary, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL

To end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Inhumane Trapping Prevention Act'.

SEC. 2. DECLARATION OF POLICY.

It is the policy of the United States to end the needless maiming and suffering inflicted upon animals through the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps by prohibiting the import or export of, and the shipment in interstate commerce of, such traps and of articles of fur from animals that were trapped in such traps.

SEC. 3. PROHIBITED ACTS AND PENALTIES.

(a) Prohibited Acts- It shall be unlawful for any person--

(1) to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce an article of fur, if any part or portion of such article is derived from an animal that was trapped in a conventional steel-jawed leghold trap;

(2) to import, export, deliver, carry, or transport by any means whatever, in interstate commerce, any conventional steel-jawed leghold trap;

(3) to sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any conventional steel-jawed leghold trap that was delivered, carried, or transported in violation of paragraph (2); or

(4) to violate any rule made by the Secretary under this Act.

( Penalties- Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a) shall, in addition to any other penalty that may be imposed--

(1) for the first such violation, be imprisoned for not more than 5 days or fined under title 18, United States Code, or both; and

(2) for each subsequent violation, be imprisoned for not more than two years or fined under title 18, United States Code, or both.

SEC. 4. REWARDS.

(a) General Rule- The Secretary shall pay, to any person who furnishes information which leads to a conviction of a violation of any provision of this Act or any rule made under this Act, an amount equal to one-half of the fine paid pursuant to the conviction.

( Exception- Any officer or employee of the United States or of any State or local government who furnishes information or renders service in the performance of his or her official duties is not eligible for payment under this section.

SEC. 5. ENFORCEMENT.

(a) In General- Except with respect to violations of this Act to which subsection ( applies, this Act and any rules made under this Act shall be enforced by the Secretary, who may utilize by agreement, with or without reimbursement, the personnel, services, and facilities of any other Federal agency or any State agency for purposes of enforcing this Act and such rules.

( Import and Export Violations-

(1) IMPORT VIOLATIONS- The importation of articles in violation of section 3(a) shall be treated as a violation of the customs laws of the United States, and those provisions of law relating to violations of the customs laws of the United States shall apply thereto.

(2) EXPORT VIOLATIONS- The authorities under the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2401 et seq.) (as continued in effect under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act), including penalties, shall be used to enforce the provisions of this Act relating to the export of articles in violation of section 3(a).

© Enforcement Authorities- Any person having authority to enforce this Act (except with respect to violations to which subsection ( applies), may, in exercising such authority--

(1) detain for inspection, search, and seize any package, crate, or other container, including its contents, and all accompanying documents, if such individual has reasonable cause to suspect that in such package, crate, or other container are articles with respect to which a violation of this Act (except with respect to a violation to which subsection ( applies) has occurred, is occurring, or is about to occur;

(2) make arrests without a warrant for any violation of this Act (except with respect to a violation to which subsection ( applies) committed in his or her presence or view, or if the individual has probable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a violation; and

(3) execute and serve any arrest warrant, search warrant, or other warrant or criminal process issued by any judge or magistrate of any court of competent jurisdiction for enforcement of this Act (except with respect to violations to which subsection ( applies).

(d) Forfeiture-

(1) GENERAL RULE- Except with respect to exports to which the provisions of the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2401 et seq.) (as continued in effect under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act) apply, and imports to which the customs laws of the United States apply, pursuant to subsection (, any article of fur or conventional steel-jawed leghold trap taken, possessed, sold, purchased, offered for sale or purchase, imported, exported, transported, delivered, received, carried, or shipped in violation of this Act or any rule made under this Act, shall be subject to forfeiture to the United States. Those provisions of law relating to--

(A) the seizure, summary and judicial forfeiture, and condemnation of property for violations of the customs laws of the United States,

( the disposition of such property or the proceeds from the sale thereof,

© the remission or mitigation of such forfeitures, and

(D) the compromise of claims,

shall apply to seizures and forfeitures incurred, or alleged to have been incurred, under the provisions of this subsection, insofar as applicable and not inconsistent with this Act.

(2) ENFORCEMENT- Such duties as are imposed upon the customs officer or any other person with respect to the seizure and forfeiture of property under the customs laws of the United States may be performed with respect to seizures and forfeitures of property under this subsection by the Secretary or such officers and employees as may be authorized or designated for that purpose by the Secretary, or, upon the request of the Secretary, by any other agency that has authority to manage and dispose of seized property.

(e) Injunctions- The Attorney General of the United States may seek to enjoin any person who is alleged to be in violation of this Act or any rule made under this Act.

(f) Cooperation- The Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of the Treasury, and the head of any other department or agency with enforcement responsibilities under this Act shall cooperate with the Secretary in ensuring that this Act, and rules made under this Act, are enforced in the most effective and efficient manner.

SEC. 6. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `article of fur' means--

(A) any furskin (as such term is used under Note 1 of chapter 43 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States), including any raw furskin classified under heading 4301 of such Schedule; or

( any article, however produced, that consists in whole or part of any such furskin.

(2) The term `conventional steel-jawed leghold trap' means any spring-powered pan or sear-activated device with two opposing steel jaws, whether the jaws are smooth, toothed, padded, or offset, which is designed to capture an animal by snapping closed upon the animal's limb or part thereof.

(3) The term `customs laws of the United States' means any other law or regulation enforced or administered by the United States Customs Service.

(4) The term `import' means to land on, bring into, or introduce into, any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, whether or not such landing, bringing, or introduction constitutes an entry into the customs territory of the United States.

(5) The term `interstate commerce' has the meaning given such term in section 10 of title 18, United States Code.

(6) The term `Secretary' means the Secretary of the Interior.

SEC. 7. RULEMAKING.

The Secretary may make rules to carry out this Act.

SEC. 8. EFFECTIVE DATE.

This Act shall take effect one year after the date of its enactment.

[BLACKJACK]

ruster, sorry for your loss!!

What part of the state do you live in? What was that guy trapping this time of year??!

Now I guess we know why bans on connibear traps are proposed!!

[walleye101]

GunDR

So what are you suggesting by your post about legislation to ban leghod traps? Is there a point to be made in this discussion about appropriate use of 220s?

[J48jake]

Ruster,

I am sorry for your loss, but by no means should they ban use of 220's on private land. If it was your land that the boyfriend was trapping on you should have discussed those things with him before you gave him permission. And as for setting off traps when you go by them, it is illegal and was made illegal due to PETA doing that same thing. Trap tampering is one of the few laws that protects the trappers. I know I may have sounded harsh in this post but I am very against congress telling me what I can and can not do on my own land.