ATV use on Public Land

[RiverKarhu]

Castmaster we did win one argument - I heard that last week a ruling was given that ALL trails will need an environmental review, not just motorized trails as some people would have preferred. I always shake my head when I go by the Mesaba bike trail and see where they crossed streams and filled in low areas, the same things they don't want motorized trails to be allowed to do. Now the playing field should be a bit more level.

later

River

[tripper]

river,i don't know if that was passed or not but i hope so as i see the same things along that trail as you do. a good exsample is near hibbing where a trout stream was filled with mud well they put in culverts and tore out beaver dams. A little further west they put fill in a cattail swamp( something i wouldn't think of takeing my atv in) in order to cross it. all this without proper studies (according to oppsition to atv trails) and along side of a four lane highway and they say no atv trail near or crossing our trail because of noise.

go figure.

[LawlerMinn]

An ATV trail system would go a long way towards having "responsible" ATV riders. It would be much easier to enforce the regulations and help eliminate the desire to ride in unapproved areas. The machines are there and their owners will ride them. I beleive that many ATV owners have to "break the law" in order to ride and that makes it a little easier to rationalize to go a little farther.

[umdr6]

Extremely interesting thread. I want to know how I can get more involved in this. I have been using ATV's for about 4-5 years now and love it. Me and a few friends have been riding in WI for the past couple years and yes, have found that they do indeed have a good trail system over their.

I went to the Gandy Dancer this morning and found that it was a complete waste of time to drive the distance from "Yeah yeah, I know the Twin Cities."

Every time i looked to the right or left while on the Gandy Dancer, I saw those bright orange or yello wsings saying "CLOSED CLOSED CLOSED." What a sad sight.

I know I am somewhat new to this thread, but I would like to get involved as much as I can. It truly is a great outdoor activity for many to enjoy!

~umdr6

[Dave]

umdr6, for starters you can join ATVAM and/or a local ATV club. You truly will meet many new friends AND places to ride.

[slinger]

Well I am glad I found this site. Very informative. I am part of my local ATV club and BRC. One of the things I am always thinking of when riding is the different terrain each person likes. I was just up at the Fort Ripley trail a few weeks back with my neighbor and he was excited to show me the area. However, when we got there all there was to ride were dirt forest roads that were designated as ATV trails. There were tons of offshoot trails that they used to ride on but were all blocked off and posted. While there we met the guy who is in charge of the trail system and he said he took a drive around the trail system and it looked in good shape but needed some maintenance. The thing that disturbed me about this is he was in his pickup truck. If a pickup truck can drive on an ATV trail then, IMO, it is not a true ATV trail. The forest road type trails are fine with me when I am with my wife or kids but they get old to myself real fast. I usually ride up by Bigfork and to me that is riding. There is variety. You have the flat forest road type, the thru the woods type that is only wide enough for an ATV, the mudhole type, the muddy trail type, etc.... Well you get my point. I am not active enough with the club and the state to help much but am trying to get more vocal and active. If what happened to the Fort Ripley area is going to happen to the entire state then, IMO, that is not good for ATVers who like variety. I am not the most informed on the legislation but do read on it and have sent letters to legislators before. Each type of riding has its place and each type of riding needs a place. My favorite type of riding is rough trails with mud and through the trees on trails that are only wide enough for an ATV, but that is what I like not necessarily what someone else likes. Now I'm starting to ramble but the point I am trying to make and to see how others feel about the variety of riding they do and if anyone knows anything about legislation to keep a variety of riding open, not only the flat forest road trails.

I am glad to see that there is a forum for MN riding. I was actually going to the MN DNR site to take a look at their forums but they are shutdown. Shows how long it's been since I went there. I found this site from some links they had listed. I'm glad I did.

[Dave]

Slinger, welcome to FM! I think your idea of what an ATV trail should consist of is echo'd pretty much across the state. Those are the types of "designated" trails ATVAM and clubs are trying to establish and build but get quite a bit of resistance on. Stay informed (signing up for ATVAM's email alert is a good way) and call your state representatives.

[castmaster]

Dave and Walter,

just wondering what your thoughts were on the problems at the recent atvam convention? persoanlly i think it gave us all a black eye (if true!) and gave more ammunition to the antis.

[castmaster]

i am also curious to your thoughts on artic cats current "down and dirty" sales campaign. while i dont think there is anything "wrong" with that type of riding in areas that can support it, i do feel it gives more ammo to the antis to market atv's in such a way. it just feeds into the stereotypes that are out there. why not have a "clean up" sales campaign in which cat donates some small amount off each sale to build new trails and repair those with damage? just think of how things like that could shift public perception of atv's and atv'ers for the good.

also if you can find a copy of "all terain vehicle" magazines spring 2005 issue, read the editors comments about their photo contest and the complaints they received about all the photos of "mudding". apparently i am not the only atv owner who sees the danger in the industry protraying atv'ers the way they do. the magazine even goes so far as to say they are putting a new policy in place to only publish those types of phots if they can be documented as having taken place in an approved riding area. i think that is a step in the right direction!!

[tripper]

castmaster you have some good points but lets be fare and mention that as fare as atvam knew the trail was good and open for use. lets also mention that they have said they will repair it and the ditch they were allowed to use. As I understand it nobody left the trail and went into the wet lands as the paper made it sound, all danmage was on the trail. By the way the ditch repair was at least started, if not finished, yesterday.

[muskybuck]

check out more damage by ATV's

ATV riders damage trail at convention in Aitkin County

Tom Meersman, Star Tribune

May 13, 2005 TRAIL0513

Off-road riders at an ATV convention last Saturday caused extensive rutting and erosion on a trail near Jacobson, Minn., state and county officials said.

The section of Rabey Line ATV Trail near the Mississippi River has been closed because of the damage.

The problems occurred one day after Gov. Tim Pawlenty had a minor accident while riding an ATV on another section of the trail.

Riders from the All-Terrain Vehicle Association of Minnesota (ATVAM), which was holding its spring convention in Hill City, Minn., last weekend, had driven along the 19-mile trail, which mostly follows a former railroad corridor.

Ken Soring, acting regional enforcement supervisor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said he heard of the problems Saturday afternoon from a field officer who reported heavy trail traffic.

ATV trail damage.David BrewsterStar TribuneThe eastern portion of the trail runs along a 1½-mile segment in a wet river-bottom area that borders the Mississippi River. As dozens of riders crossed the area, the trail turned into mud. Those who tried to drive around the mud created more ruts, Soring said.

Soring said he notified ATVAM officials immediately to stop riding in the area, but by then it was too late. "It was pretty well torn up," he said.

The ATV trail was listed as open on the DNR HSOforum. "I don't feel we need to hold them criminally liable if they're just traversing the trail and not mucking it up intentionally," he said. "The issue is whether that trail in the river bottom is in an appropriate location."

ATV trailThe damaged portion crosses undeveloped parkland managed by Aitkin County, whose regulations say that trails are closed until May 15. County land commissioner Roger Howard said no one should have been riding there last weekend. Asked if the county had posted trail-closure signs, Howard said it has been done in the past, but he couldn't be sure whether the signs were there last weekend.

ATVAM first vice president Leonard Hardy said that about 80 riders in three separate groups drove the Rabey trail Saturday afternoon, and about half of them crossed the muddy area before DNR conservation officers directed the rest to a county road. Hardy said riders did not think that driving it would cause problems. But he said that ATVAM takes responsibility for the damage and that it will "do what it takes" to correct it.

Matt Norton, a policy analyst for the Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy, said the damage was inexcusable and could have been prevented. He said that ATVAM is to blame for promoting the trail ride and that the DNR and the county share blame for not posting signs to close the saturated portion of the trail.

Howard said the county will reroute the trail to higher ground away from the river this summer.

Tom Meersman is at [email protected].

[Dave]

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check out more damage by ATV's

ATV riders damage trail at convention in Aitkin County

Tom Meersman, Star Tribune

May 13, 2005 TRAIL0513

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And, just what type of article did you expect from Tom Meersman? A balanced "here's a problem and we should work to correct it", I don't think so.

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Off-road riders at an ATV convention last Saturday caused extensive rutting and erosion on a trail near Jacobson, Minn., state and county officials said.

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Extensive? Just as ATV manufacturers use ad slogans such as "down and dirty", the media reporters who are opposed to a recreation they don't like or want, will use words to capture the reader's attention and exploit the situation to gain a response. Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth reading. From my reports, the ruts were about 6-inches deep. Is that extensive? Not IMO. I wasn't there to witness it.

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The section of Rabey Line ATV Trail near the Mississippi River has been closed because of the damage.

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I believe the ATV regulations state the rutting regulation does not apply to ATV trails. That is what a designated ATV trail is for, IMO.

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Riders from the All-Terrain Vehicle Association of Minnesota (ATVAM), which was holding its spring convention in Hill City, Minn., last weekend, had driven along the 19-mile trail,

which mostly follows a former railroad corridor.

Ken Soring, acting regional enforcement supervisor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said he heard of the problems Saturday afternoon from a field officer who reported heavy trail traffic.

ATV trail damage.David BrewsterStar TribuneThe eastern portion of the trail runs along a 1½-mile segment in a wet river-bottom area that borders the Mississippi River. As dozens of riders crossed the area, the trail turned into mud. Those who tried to drive around the mud created more ruts, Soring said.

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This tells ME (and I've done it myself) that riders tried to not make more ruts in the wet area of that trail. Those that ride ATVs know that you can't always tell how soft the area really is until you're already in it. They went around, they tried to do something to help the situation.

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Soring said he notified ATVAM officials immediately to stop riding in the area, but by then it was too late. "It was pretty well torn up," he said.

The ATV trail was listed as open on the DNR

HSOforum

. "I don't feel we need to hold them criminally liable if they're just traversing the trail and not mucking it up

intentionally

," he said. "The issue is whether that trail in the river bottom is in an appropriate location."

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Intentionally is the key word here. I'd make a bet that with all the positive responses that MN riders have given over the last few years, to try and please the anti-atv crowd, none of those riders in those groups intentionally set out to make a mess of that section of trail. The trail was listed as OPEN. Maybe it's not a suitable location and that section of trail should be realigned. That's a good learning experience for many. Maybe they've had more rain than normal in that area? Is that too hard for a logical person to comprehend or does one have to try and make a mountain out of a molehill of a problem; like what Tom Meersman seems to try and do quite often.

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ATV trailThe damaged portion crosses undeveloped parkland managed by Aitkin County, whose regulations say that trails are closed until May 15. County land commissioner Roger Howard said no one should have been riding there last weekend. Asked if the county had posted trail-closure signs, Howard said it has been done in the past, but he couldn't be sure whether the signs were there last weekend.

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My guess would say no signs were posted. With all the work ATVAM and MN riders have done in the last few years, do you honestly think that ATVAM would allow riding on a posted closed trail? I don't think so.

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ATVAM first vice president Leonard Hardy said that about 80 riders in three separate groups drove the Rabey trail Saturday afternoon, and about half of them crossed the muddy area before DNR conservation officers directed the rest to a county road. Hardy said riders did not think that driving it would cause problems. But he said that ATVAM takes responsibility for the damage and that it will "do what it takes" to correct it.

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From what I've heard, the ruts in that section of trail have already been fixed. Small problem solved, quickly. Experience on trail placement has been added too. But, I want to say, that trail may have been there for many years, even rode on by some riders, and have never had any problems. People, there was an ATV Convention there! Hundreds of riders and this is all the dirt Meersman could write about. I tip my hat to the riders who were there and think they did a great job of staying on the trails, had fun with family and met some new friends.

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Matt Norton, a policy analyst for the Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy, said the damage was inexcusable and could have been prevented. He said that ATVAM is to blame for promoting the trail ride and that the DNR and the county share blame for not posting signs to close the saturated portion of the trail.

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Above is a typical Matt Norton line, always looking for someone to blame and never try to help with a solution other than take the machines off the trails.

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Howard said the county will reroute the trail to higher ground away from the river this summer.

Tom Meersman is at

[email protected].

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Sounds like a great solution to me.

My whole take on this situation, watch the news lately? How many murders have there been? How many drug crimes have there been? How many "inexcusable" (I'll even use Norton's word to capture the readers ) speeders have driven past you on the highways and may have taken the life of another? How much garbage is along the highways in our state? And, somebody like Meersman and Norton tries to make a big whoopla over about one mile of ATV trail that got muddy?! Personally, I have more important things to worry about in life but, you asked for my opinion.

[Dave]

I was checking the Star online outdoor section for fishin' reports and ran across the photo about this "ATV damage".

To me, it looks like that hole to the left where Meersman says the "water is running into the river" was there long before any ATVers were there. High sides except where that hole is; water was already running into the river. There's no way that hole eroded within a couple of hours.

[tripper]

Looking at the pic. it looks as if the area could be dried up by running a culvert or two under the trail. It is apperant the washout has been going on for some time.

[castmaster]

looking at that pic it also is apparent that the first riders to come upon it should have known it was wet and there were going to be problems. with the publicity surrounding the governor being up there i would hope that those in leadership positions at atvam would have done everything possible to avoid just such a thing. in a perfect world i dont think that "damage" is terrible, but to non atv'ers who see that pic i bet it will be. sorry it happened and hopefully the fallout wont be too severe. hopefully some lessons will be learned about public image.

i'd also like to get others experiences with private land owners. its my experience from the dozen or so land owners in northern MN who i have contact with, that they are some of the most ardent at wanting tougher atv laws. over half of them have had problems with atv tresspassing. everyone of them says that the way things are now they would not allow a public trail to cross their property, as they feel it would lead to nothing but problems for them. everyone of them owns an atv. anyone else have more positive feedback from northern MN landowners?

[Dave]

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looking at that pic it also is apparent that the first riders to come upon it should have known it was wet and there were going to be problems.

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Don't you think there will be wet sections on ATV trails? Should the convention have been cancelled due to rain?

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with the publicity surrounding the governor being up there i would hope that those in leadership positions at atvam would have done everything possible to avoid just such a thing.

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I believe ATVAM did do a great job, for being volunteer ran. And, by the looks of the picture and report from a known anti-atv columnists, doesn't that say a lot about what a good job ATVAM did if this is the only bad report?

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in a perfect world i dont think that "damage" is terrible, but to non atv'ers who see that pic i bet it will be.

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Gotta agree with ya there but, we don't even need a perfect world. How about just a logical world. There's an ATV trail, there will be wet spots and there will be some ruts!

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sorry it happened and hopefully the fallout wont be too severe.

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Actually, the public exposure of this report will open many eyes but not on the side of people like Tom Meersman, IMO.

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hopefully some lessons will be learned about public image.

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I agree. There are always lessons to be learned when you deal with human being; be it ATVs, boating, hunting, fishing, whether on machine or not.

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i'd also like to get others experiences with private land owners. its my experience from the dozen or so land owners in northern MN who i have contact with, that they are some of the most ardent at wanting tougher atv laws. over half of them have had problems with atv tresspassing. everyone of them says that the way things are now they would not allow a public trail to cross their property, as they feel it would lead to nothing but problems for them. everyone of them owns an atv. anyone else have more positive feedback from northern MN landowners?

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Curious CM, how much land (acres)does each of these private owners that you have contact with own? Just a general, 100, 500, 10, 5, type of response. I think allowing an ATV trail to pass through your property has a lot to do with how much land the owner has. And, depends where through the property the trail would be. Just the wherequestion, so the trail could interconnect with other trails, would be a big deciding factor in giving the OK.

[castmaster]

Dave,

would it be possible to post this pic along with a poll of this sites users asking whether they feel this was a problem or not? i am just curious to see how that would play out even on a site for outdoorspeople.

[Dave]

CM, while I think your curiousity is just like everyone elses, I think that would be tough to form an opinion whether it's ok or not without a knowledge of that specific area and past performance/condition of that section of trail. How would you suggest the poll question(s) be asked?

(not saying your idea is bad, just complex, IMO, to ask pollers)

MY point in posting that photo for everyone here to see was that some very negative opinions (Meersman) are being made public when not all of the facts are ever revealed as well. It gets tiring when a recreation, even boating/fishing, doesn't get it's fair share of "reporting".

[slinger]

From what I see of that picture it looks like an ATV trail. What needs to be repaired here? I know I may get flack for this but an ATV trail is not a smooth flat gravel road. It is a trail with a variety of terrain to challenge different crowds with detours around it on dry ground for those that don't want to drive thru. As you can tell I do like mudding with my ATV, and yes I do it on legal trails and private land. All of this talk of fixing trails and correcting problems gets old as most, yes I said most, of the pictures I see are of trails that are made/designated for ATV's and those don't need maintenance. I just don't understand why we keep bending over farther and farther untill all there is to ride is a gravel road. Wow, isn't that fun.

[tripper]

I'm willing to bet if that was a boat landing road in that condition and Meersmen wanted to go fishing there he would drive through there with his boat in tow.

[muskybuck]

The day is coming when the only place ATV's will be allowed to operate is private property and designated ATV only trails and specialized ATV recreational areas and maybe on frozen lakes. It will happen. All it takes is one bonehead here and there acting like they see the TV commercials to insure this.

[slinger]

muskybuck - What commercials are you referencing? I don't watch a whole lot of TV and have rarely seen any ads.

[tripper]

Musky, you are probely rite and it is one of the reasons atver's are trying so hard to get trails built.

I went up to my bros. this morning and noticed the boat lands road by his place was tore up worse then that atv trail. I mentioned it to him and he said the landing itself was even worse. Maybe all dirt landing roads should get closed and abandond.

[RiverKarhu]

I think the picture did ATVers more good than harm by calling attention to what the naysayers and antimotorized crowd is calling "damage". For the number of ATVs that traveled over the trail there is very little damage, none of it permanent by any means as anyone who has not totally gone over to the dark side can see.

later

River

[Ely Lake Expert]

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From what I see of that picture it looks like an ATV trail. What needs to be repaired here? I know I may get flack for this but an ATV trail is not a smooth flat gravel road. It is a trail with a variety of terrain to challenge different crowds with detours around it on dry ground for those that don't want to drive thru. As you can tell I do like mudding with my ATV, and yes I do it on legal trails and private land. All of this talk of fixing trails and correcting problems gets old as most, yes I said most, of the pictures I see are of trails that are made/designated for ATV's and those don't need maintenance. I just don't understand why we keep bending over farther and farther untill all there is to ride is a gravel road. Wow, isn't that fun.

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Very good post slinger. Atv=all terrain vehicle, wheelers have 4x4 with reason, to use it. My family owns 70 acres of private land, but I seem to do a majority of my riding on public land. I just think that people that complain about about water filled ruts on trails that are not designated for something specific, should just quit whining. Tree huggers need to find something else better to do than bother us atv's that are just out enjoying something that we love to do.

Another thing I have noticed is that most people discussing this thread are from the southern part of the state. It does not seem to be as big of a deal up here compared to the southern part of the state. I think that is partially that there are more atv'ers and less tree huggers per capita up here. What do you guys think, is it a big problem statewide or is the majority of the problem in the twin cities area/southern part of the state?

Another subject that got touched on is this thread was whether private land owners would open up to having trails through there land. I know my family wouldn't want a trail coming through our land. Being in the line of work I am in (Realtor) I see on a everyday basis, the ever increasing cost of acreage and IMO that is the main reason that landowners don't really want to open up to others is that most of them have put so much into working hard to own there own "little piece of paridise". Buying large pieces of land is getting tougher to do, so I think people have every reason to deny access to their land.

Off topic, IMO if anyone wants to buy land or lakefront, the sooner you buy it, the better of a price that you will get. Just a piece of advice.

Ryan