ATV use on Public Land

[castmaster]

Ryan,

are you serious? from what i have read there are more atv's registered in the 7 county metro than there are "up north". there are more "tree hugging granola eaters" in the ely area than anywhere else in this state!

[tripper]

Ryan, I think you hav ea good point with oon the the per capita. It seems to be that way with everything, riding, fishing, hunting or what ever and because they are setting on the hills door step they can be there to complain and get things past state wide.

[Ely Lake Expert]

castmaster, I am absolutely serious. Of course there are more atv's registered in the 7 county metro. In those 7 counties there are approximately 2,800,000 people compared to St. louis, Itasca, and Coochaching counties having 260,000 people and covering a much larger area. So IMO having more atv's registered is irrelivant. From my experience people in Ely like atv's and there are not many tree huggers, at least I haven't met or dealt with any of them.

[castmaster]

Ryan,

i guess we will have to disagree on this one. in my many trips to the ely area i have found it to be the epicenter of "tree huggers" in this state. i have walked into cafes straight out of "vegeville". i have walked into stores that certainly arent catering to blue collar types. i have listened to diatribes about why dogsledding is SO much better (for personal satisfaction and fun as well as for the enviroment) than snowmobiles or atv's. i actually had a couple guys gripe at me for using a gas auger while ice fishing. they couldnt understand why lazt people like me cant use a hand auger, afterall the ice was only 2' thick! i could go on and on.

i am going to try and refrain from this topic. you all continue to solve this problem in the way you think best. after reading all the comments, i think i will put my atv's up for sale.

one last question. what are everyones feelings about 4x4 "mudder" trucks? i mean they also have 4wd for a reason correct? and if any rutting done by atv's is inconsequential, than larger ruts made by trucks must not be bad either correct? shouldnt those who choose to enjoy that form of recreation be allowed the same priviledges as atv'ers?

[castmaster]

one other thing to remember when complaining about the people in the metro area, that tax base is what helps to support outstate MN. so if the argument is going to be made that metro residents should have no say in what happens with state owned lands outside the metro area, than i think funding generated by the tax base in the metro should only be used for projects within the metro. no more funding to bring jobs to outstate etc. start using only tax monies generated within outstate communities. or would that be unfair?

[Ely Lake Expert]

Castmaster,

I am sorry to hear people in Ely treated you that way, they must be able to tell that you are from the cities. Just kidding. My personal experience with people in Ely has always been good and most of the people I have personnally met have been hunters and fisherman.

As far as your last post, I didn't notice anyone saying that people in the cities should have no say in what to do with greater MN state owned lands. Oh well I will post this then go back and look.

Ryan

[Ely Lake Expert]

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one last question. what are everyones feelings about 4x4 "mudder" trucks? i mean they also have 4wd for a reason correct? and if any rutting done by atv's is inconsequential, than larger ruts made by trucks must not be bad either correct? shouldnt those who choose to enjoy that form of recreation be allowed the same priviledges as atv'ers?

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I think 4x4 trucks should have as much right to go out and play in the mud as people riding there atv's. Trails are meant to be used, not to "look pretty".

[Dave]

castmaster, everyday street vehicles make ruts on forest roads everyday. My opinion, you're taking it to the extreme for a comparison since "mudder" trucks are not allowed everywhere in a forest.

[Ely Lake Expert]

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one other thing to remember when complaining about the people in the metro area, that tax base is what helps to support outstate MN.

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Cast,

I checked and maybe I am just blind, but who was complaining about people from the cities?

[castmaster]

Dave,

did you happen to read these posts?

You actually prove my point exactly, Compare the average wage of a resident of "greater Minnesota" to the average wage of a resident of the twin cities. Also compare the unemployment rate of greater Minnesota to that of the Twin cities area. All these regulations are directly affecting the lives of those people who not only work for Polaris and Cat but the whole region. Why should anyone but those people get to decide that which affects them directly? You're right, money talks. And that money is in the twin cities and if you don't live there you get the shaft. Wonder why those people are fighting back?

Ryan, I think you hav ea good point with oon the the per capita. It seems to be that way with everything, riding, fishing, hunting or what ever and because they are setting on the hills door step they can be there to complain and get things past state wide.

am i taking these comments wrong? seems to me some have quite the attitude against those of us from the metro area. i am just curious if people like walter bemoan metro tax base funding programs such as the jobs program? i for one am getting sick and tired of the attitudes some have towards all us "rich folk" in the cities!!

as i said for the rest of this stuff, we will have to agree to disagree. i personally feel there is no place for mudding on public land. anyone who wants to portray that as having no consequences to other riders or to the land is not being truthful in my opinion. come on down to hastings and take a walk through the wma in the mississippi river bottoms area here and see the long lasting damage that has been done by mudders (both trucks and atv's). this in a WMA(and adjoining area) for chrissakes. an area that has NEVER been open to atv's or trucks. this is also an area, since it is river bottom land, that floods most years allowing sediment etc to fill in some of the "damage" yet the rutts are imapssable in some places. ever try negotiating 44" truck ruts on your atv? not easy! now this area would make for a great trail system for WINTER USE ONLY, but with the damage already present there will be no chance for that ever to happen. or how about what happens for guys like me who do not want any part of "mudding" when those who do decide to rip up designated trails? i guess when i get to the part of the trail they have turned into slop holes i can just turn around and go home? if you want to tear stuff up do it on your own land. seeing the attitudes of atvam memebers when it comes to their right to mud is the #1 reason i will not be a part of that organization. i also think it is the #1 reason we are seeing, and will continue to see, increased animosity towards atv users.

so i guess only time will tell whose theories and visons of the future of atvs are correct. i sincerely hope guys like dave are right, unfortunately i fear they arent!

[Dave]

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Dave,

did you happen to read these posts?

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Sure do.

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You actually prove my point exactly, Compare the average wage of a resident of "greater Minnesota" to the average wage of a resident of the twin cities. Also compare the unemployment rate of greater Minnesota to that of the Twin cities area.

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I've never mentioned anything about wages or unemployment but I'll keep trying to follow ya here

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All these regulations are directly affecting the lives of those people who not only work for Polaris and Cat but the whole region.

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Are you talking whole state or that region of the state? I'm still trying to understand what you're talking about CM.

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Why should anyone but those people get to decide that which affects them directly?

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My opinion would be, they shouldn't. The people in the area should have a greater say in how things are in their parts.

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You're right, money talks. And that money is in the twin cities and if you don't live there you get the shaft. Wonder why those people are fighting back?

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Ah, no, I'm not wondering at all. I would be too.

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am i taking these comments wrong?

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You very well could be, just as easily as some of us might be misunderstanding your point.

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seems to me some have quite the attitude against those of us from the metro area. i am just curious if people like walter bemoan metro tax base funding programs such as the jobs program? i for one am getting sick and tired of the attitudes some have towards all us "rich folk" in the cities!!

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Ah, I'm from the city. I'm not feeling any attitudes from the folks up nort.

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as i said for the rest of this stuff, we will have to agree to disagree. i personally feel there is no place for mudding on public land.

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I can easily agree to disagree with anyone. And, I respect your opinion. As far as "muddin" on public lands, I feel there's no reasonable reason why there shouldn't be places like that for one to enjoy that type of recreation. I mean, there's millions of acres, public acres.

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anyone who wants to portray that as having no consequences to other riders or to the land is not being truthful in my opinion.

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"Consequences to the land". That is a difference of opinion.

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come on down to hastings and take a walk through the wma in the mississippi river bottoms area here and see the long lasting damage that has been done by mudders (both trucks and atv's). this in a WMA(and adjoining area) for chrissakes. an area that has NEVER been open to atv's or trucks. this is also an area, since it is river bottom land, that floods most years allowing sediment etc to fill in some of the "damage" yet the rutts are imapssable in some places.

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I don't think anyone here would disagree.

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ever try negotiating 44" truck ruts on your atv? not easy! now this area would make for a great trail system for WINTER USE ONLY, but with the damage already present there will be no chance for that ever to happen. or how about what happens for guys like me who do not want any part of "mudding" when those who do decide to rip up designated trails? i guess when i get to the part of the trail they have turned into slop holes i can just turn around and go home? if you want to tear stuff up do it on your own land.

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Now, here, castmaster, is where YOU have failed to educate yourself on what's happening. There were such areas like this on designated ATV trails. Now, those "slop holes", which you call them, are nothing more than filled up, one-foot deep, areas. "Muddin" into deep slop holes are becoming more of a thing of the past. Not that I agree with that, some play holes could easily be provided for if some riders would like to do that, with bypass trails for riders, such as you, who wish not to.

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seeing the attitudes of atvam memebers when it comes to their right to mud is the #1 reason i will not be a part of that organization.

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I think you should maybe take another look with a bit more focus.

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i also think it is the #1 reason we are seeing, and will continue to see, increased animosity towards atv users.

so i guess only time will tell whose theories and visons of the future of atvs are correct. i sincerely hope guys like dave are right, unfortunately i fear they arent!

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Reread what I wrote and maybe the future wouldn't be so bad.

[castmaster]

Dave, the first two items were posts made previously by others in this thread. they are NOT my thoughts or opinions. you stated that you had read through this thread again and saw nothing about people complaining about those from the cities. i beg to differ, as i think the 2 examples i listed show. state lands are bought and paid for by tax dollars coming fgrom every single tax paying citizen, not just those whose communities they are near. why should those who live there have any more say than someone who lives on the opposite side of the state? why should someone in MN have any more say about what happens in the chippewa or superior natl forests, than someone in arizona has to say about them? they belong to every citizen of this country!

you say i am taking it to the extreme to ask opinions about "mudder" trucks, yet you compare atv issues with people speeding on the highways and litter in the ditches. thats not taking things to the extreme?

i have reread everyone of your posts. please clarify what you think needs to happen to deal with these issues, and how to pay for it!

[Walterwontfalter]

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am i taking these comments wrong? seems to me some have quite the attitude against those of us from the metro area. i am just curious if people like walter bemoan metro tax base funding programs such as the jobs program? i for one am getting sick and tired of the attitudes some have towards all us "rich folk" in the cities!!

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I'd like to clarify my point here. I don't have any negative feelings towards anyone living in the Twin Cities in general. What I have a problem with is when someone from the Twin Cities feels that they have the right to dictate what happens everywhere else, having more of a say in what happens than those who live in the areas they are trying to change to suit their own wants and needs based on the fact that Twin Cities residents make more money, pay more taxes, has more voters than those who live anywhere else in the state.

You can make comments like "rich folk" and try to pidgeon hole me as some "Local Yokel Redneck" if you want. I'll just sit here chewing on my corn cob pipe, spitting watermelon seeds and chawing mah tobackey with my sister-wife and asking every shiny SUV that drives past my spread "You Hattfield...or McCoy?"

[castmaster]

Walter,

first off i apologize if my comments seemed like i was cally you a "billy". not my intent. i have dozens of friends from "up north", i do not think the people who reside there are backwoods, neanderthals! i do feel that some who live up there feel they have more right, or more say, in what happens with state resources because of the geographical location, much as you feel about some in the cities. i guess my comments were as blanketed and generalized as some that i have taken offense to, and for that i also apologize.

i do have this question for you though, do state parks, forsests, wma's etc belong to those who live closest, or to every citizen of this state? do you have a problem with the metro tax base supporting programs which benefit outste residents?

Dave,

following your logic on providing places for every type of atv'er to have a place to do their thing, should the state also then build auto racetracks (or atv tracks for those who like to race their sport atv's) to provide a place for people to speed legally? should they designate sections of highway as open to littering so those who choose to dump dump out there windows can do so? do you have any factual proof that 1000 paper mcdonalds bags in the ditch has any more long lasting negative effect on the land than someone mudding does? should the state set aside "drug using" zones, so those who are able to use recreational drugs responsibly can do so? i mean we have states that have legalized medical marijuana( in fact my fathers doctor has suggested it to help alleviate some of the symptoms associated with his parkinsons disease, he is too afraid to try it because of fear over the laws), yet our federal government intercedes saying that will set a bad example and make it too tough to enforce the laws against others. do you support the rights of those states and individuals to use marijuana, or do you punish them for the fact some cannot use that substance responsibly? we can go on ad naseum with this type of thing.

one other thing i think deserves mentioning. i myself am gulty of jumping on the "i hate tree huggers" bandwagon from time to time. but lets stop and ask ourselves this (especially if you enjoy hunting and fishing) were would the outdoors be if it wasnt for "enviromentalists"? we already have fish consumption advisories, what would we have if it wasnt for the work of enviromentalists over the past several decades? do i get frustrated and fed up with the extremists within that genre, sure do. but i also acknowledge and appreciate the great works others within those ranks have done. would we have a clean water or clean air act if not for those pesky enviromentalists? i highly doubt it. earlier this spring they had a gathering at the state capitol, which drew sportsmens groups as well as enviromental groups. hopefully that will be the beginning of groups who used to be at odds with each other searching for common ground and compromise in order to find solutions that work for the best of everyone. that type of thing has my support 1000%!!

[Dave]

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you say i am taking it to the extreme to ask opinions about "mudder" trucks

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Ask all you want,CM. Nothing extreme about you asking.

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yet you compare atv issues with people speeding on the highways and litter in the ditches. thats not taking things to the extreme?

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Yup, I bring those topics up. And you know what, nobody, not even YOU will, or probably can, tell me WHY the ATV issue is more important and does more harm than either of these two other subjects! Which one affects more peoples lives?! My opinion, if making some mud is the most damaging thing some people can think of, and constantly go on and on about, they're not living in reality.

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i have reread everyone of your posts. please clarify what you think needs to happen to deal with these issues, and how to pay for it!

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I feel the things that are, and have been, happening for the last few years with ATVAM and ATV clubs is a very good start. I'd be lieing if I said I had the answers, and so would you. I think these "issues" are less life altering than you do. So, I'm not really worried that things need to be fixed pronto. Have a good holiday weekend.

[Walterwontfalter]

Cast, I apreciate your apology though no apology was needed. I did feel you were calling me a hillbilly but I tried to take that and use it to make light of this whole thing for a moment. I'm sure some of my posts have offended people though that was not my intention.

To answer your question;

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do state parks, forsests, wma's etc belong to those who live closest, or to every citizen of this state? do you have a problem with the metro tax base supporting programs which benefit outste residents?

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I believe that they belong to every citizen of the state. The problem I have with it is that a certain group of people get to decide what happens to an area based on population and the amount of taxes they pay. There are often times people who have no intention to use, for example, a certain state park, or ever visit that park though they are able to, based on their own beliefs and ideas control how that park is managed therefore forcing their own beliefs and ideas on someone else.

Furthermore, In my opinion whether you make $80,000 a year or $25,000 (just examples) both should pay a set percentage in taxes yet makeing more in wages should not give you a stronger vote or more of a claim to public property.

Does that answer your question?

[slinger]

castmaster,

I will have to disagree with you on a few topics.

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i personally feel there is no place for mudding on public land. anyone who wants to portray that as having no consequences to other riders or to the land is not being truthful in my opinion.

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Of course it has consequences. Everything we do in life has consequences. With passes around the mud holes for those that do not wish to drive thru it allows the trail to be completely passable by all users. Why should people be restricted to only smooth roads, called "trails", vs. having a trail to ride on.

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how about what happens for guys like me who do not want any part of "mudding" when those who do decide to rip up designated trails? i guess when i get to the part of the trail they have turned into slop holes i can just turn around and go home? if you want to tear stuff up do it on your own land. seeing the attitudes of atvam memebers when it comes to their right to mud is the #1 reason i will not be a part of that organization. i also think it is the #1 reason we are seeing, and will continue to see, increased animosity towards atv users.

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So, if I understand you correctly. It is ok for the use of an ATV in your opinion but not those of others. This is what bugs me the most of everything. People trying to force items on other people because they don't like it. If there is mud I suggest having a bypass trail where others say to just shut it down. It seems that in your opinion that if there is mud they should shut the trail down because it may hurt the land so severly it can never be used again. That is an extreme, IMO.

It is and always will be an agree to disagree subject. One person likes this the other likes that. I just think we should be able to provide for BOTH groups and not exclude a group because someone may not agree with it.

I will be up north this weekend near Togo ATVing and having a good time while I can. Hopefully the trails will have a variety of terrain along as I have a 1st time ATVer with me and want to show him what it is all about. I love the area up there and is why I drive 4.5 hours one way to get to it. The trails I ride on there are mud, dirt, gravel, rock, clear cut, etc.... Variety to satisfy all the ATVers out there. There are bypasses around everything in case the going is to rough.