Backup Sump Pump Not Working

[fishnowworknever]

We have a really deep sump pit...I mean really deep.  It's 8' deep with one lower inlet about 3' from the bottom and an inlet / or outlet (not sure what that one is for) about 1' from the top of the basin.

 

I've installed a Watchdog Backup Special+ battery backup pump.  Both pumps sit on the bottom of the pit.  Both drain pipes from the pumps have their own check valve located at the exact same height, the two pipes connect to a "y" and then out to a single pipe.

There is about 5' of head water sitting above the check valves.

the backup pump cannot empty the pit when I manually turn it on.  Is it possible it's just not powerful enough?  Any other ideas?

[rundrave]

what brand pump is it? how is the pump activated? I only say this because there are multiple types of pumps that are triggered by a float arms, sensors etc.

How are you trying to make it run? does it make any noise at all? 

I would suggest putting your 2nd pump a bit higher in the sump hole so that only turns on in the event that the first pump cant keep up or fails. If both of your pumps are sitting directly on the bottom are they running at the same time? Or are the floats at different levels?

Also I would suggest taking the Y out. If you have more than one pump to get water out in a big rain etc, it makes no sense to hook them up to one discharge. You cant get more water out with 2 pumps unless you have 2 discharge pipes going out.

 

[delcecchi]

Is water coming into the pit while you are testing?  It is supposed to pump 1700 Gallons per hour or 30 gallons per minute ( at 10 foot head) almost.  So it seems like it should empty the pit in a minute or two. 

If it really turns on, I would wonder if check valve is stuck.  If there is some crud in the sump water, and the main pump is doing all the work, some of the crud could be settling down on top of the check valve for the backup pump and either block the pipe or block the check valve from opening. 

That's my guess.  I have had check valves stick on my well pump. 

 

[h8go4s]

With the backup pump at the bottom of the 8-foot deep sump, how much higher is the outlet pipe? Another 8 feet to ground level?  In other words, what is the total vertical lift? You may have exceeded the capacity of the backup pump. I have a Watchdog backup that is several years old, and it does the job fine, but it is definitely not as beefy as the main pump. I don't understand why the sump is so deep. Is this some kind of split level basement where the pump is at the higher level? Can you suspend the backup pump just a foot or so below floor level?

[fishnowworknever]

To answer some questions:

It's a Basement Watchdog Special+

Both pumps are on the bottom of the pit. 

The backup has a float activated switch about 5' above the bottom of the pit. 

I am manually activating the backup pump from the control panel, I know it's pumping water and not air locked.

Guessing total vertical lift is near 15'

It's a normal full basement, no idea why that sump pit is so deep.

My setup is like this:

 

 

My thought was to raise it up off the bottom of the pit as well with an L bracket attached to the  main sumps discharge line.  The other issue is that the drain pipe run horizontally about 30' until it gets to the other side of the basement where it exits the house.  I guess all of these factors need to be addressed somehow.  I guess I could re-run the discharge line out the side of the house closest to the sump pit instead of the opposite side of the house...no idea why they would install it like that.

Edited July 24, 2015 by fishnowworknever

[h8go4s]

According to the web page below, max head is 15 feet. I'd try raising the backup pump as I suggested in my first post.

http://www.basementwatchdog.com/Battery_Backup_Sump_Pumps/Basement_Watchdog_Special_Backup_System.php

Basement Watchdog Special Battery Backup System Specifications:

MODEL No. BWSP
Pump
Flow @ 0 ft. GPH	2,500 GPH	Dimensions (DxWxH)	5" x 9" x 8"
Flow @ 10 ft. GPH	1,730 GPH	Pump Cord Length	8 ft.
Pump Discharge	1-1/2" NPT	Monitor Cord Length	8 ft.
Max Head	15 ft.	Float Switch Cord Length	8 ft.

Edited July 25, 2015 by h8go4s

[delcecchi]

Did the back up pump ever work?

[Tom7227]

I wonder why the sump is so deep.  That thing holds an awful lot of water.  I would assume that the pipes mentioned by FNM are both inlet pipes, perhaps one installed later than the first.
Maybe it would help if you knew how much water gets pumped by the main pump when things are running at max.  Try and figure out how much water the sump holds before the pump turns on and then keep track of how often it cycles.  That will give you an idea of how much you need to pump with the backup pump if the electricity goes out.  Then using the capacity charts from the pump manufacturer you know what the backup can do.  
It seems likely that you are exceeding the pumps capabilities with the amount of head you have.  Also every turn you have reduces the water flow.  
Would it work if you suspended the backup pump so that it was only a foot or two below floor level?  Your entire drain tile system would fill but I don’t think that means a flood in your house.  If you match the maximum flow as calculated (add a 25% safety factor) and get the backup into the range where the manufacturer says it will work you should be good to go.  The backup doesn’t need to keep the entire system dry, just keep it low enough so you don’t get a flood.

[delcecchi]

I would be tempted to put a few concrete blocks in the bottom of that sump, unless there is some reason I don't know about that it is so deep. 

[fishnowworknever]

Did the back up pump ever work?

It's brand new, never had one installed before.

[delcecchi]

Then it could be an inability to pump as high as it needs to.  

[Surface Tension]

According to the chart you at Max Head.   But, I take it this is a new install.  Is the check valve in the correct direction?

[rundrave]

 The other issue is that the drain pipe run horizontally about 30' until it gets to the other side of the basement where it exits the house.  I guess all of these factors need to be addressed somehow.  I guess I could re-run the discharge line out the side of the house closest to the sump pit instead of the opposite side of the house...no idea why they would install it like that.

I would also get rid of the horizontal pipe and exit out the closest wall. Thats way to much work for those pumps to pump the water that far. Does it have a slope to it at all to help assist in getting the water to drain out? I would try to get this entire sump system to do the least amount of work possible when it comes to pumping water out.

How often does the main pump run?

[fishnowworknever]

According to the chart you at Max Head.   But, I take it this is a new install.  Is the check valve in the correct direction?

Yes it's installed correctly.

 

 

I would also get rid of the horizontal pipe and exit out the closest wall. Thats way to much work for those pumps to pump the water that far. Does it have a slope to it at all to help assist in getting the water to drain out? I would try to get this entire sump system to do the least amount of work possible when it comes to pumping water out.

How often does the main pump run?

It really depends but if we get a good rain it will cycle probably every 30 minutes.  The pumps are at the very bottom of the pit so it doesn't need to fill up hardly at all before it triggers the switch.

 

 

So if I were to re-route the discharge pipe out the nearest side of the house, I'd like to trench in a 4" pipe to run to the middle of the back yard.  This is the way the discharge is installed currently on the far side of the house.  No idea how deep that pipe is or where it exactly runs to.

 

How deep does the trenched pipe need to be?  There is a nice slope downward to the backyard where it will come out and i'll probably only need to run about 20'-30' underground.

[h8go4s]

All this is beginning to sound like busy work to me. First, I can't imagine the water table varying so much that you'd need a pump at all in a 8-foot deep sump. If it only runs every 30 minutes when it rains, would it ever rise to floor level if there was no pump? Second, a backup pump doesn't need to be at the bottom of the sump. It's only there to provide protection in case the main pump fails or power goes out. Raise the backup pump to a foot or so below floor level and be done with it.

[fishnowworknever]

My wife thinks the same thing...something to keep me busy.

I've unplugged the main pump after a big rain and let it get to about 3' below the top of the pit.

I'll try raising the pump up off the floor first, my only concern is the length of the horizontal run to the outside of the house, it's around 30'.  I *think* it actually raises up again before it exits the house, which will cause a problem for that backup pump I'm guessing.  There is a finished room where that horizontal run ends and I cannot see where it actually exits the house.

 

Any idea what that inlet would be for up near the top of the pit?  See pic below (backup pump not installed in this pic)

 

 

All this is beginning to sound like busy work to me. First, I can't imagine the water table varying so much that you'd need a pump at all in a 8-foot deep sump. If it only runs every 30 minutes when it rains, would it ever rise to floor level if there was no pump? Second, a backup pump doesn't need to be at the bottom of the sump. It's only there to provide protection in case the main pump fails or power goes out. Raise the backup pump to a foot or so below floor level and be done with it.

 

Edited July 28, 2015 by fishnowworknever

[fishnowworknever]

Just spoke with the city, the drain pipe would need to be connected to the street drain system, so forget the idea of draining to the back yard.

 

I'll try raising the pump and if needed I'll have to completely re-route the pipe so it's a constant slope downward if it is indeed raising up again before exiting the house.

[Tom7227]

I would think that the advice from the City is that you cannot hook it up to the sewer line.  I'm pretty sure that is standard if not code now.

My system is very much like yours.  The first sump is a 30 gallon drum and is about 60+ feet from the discharge line out of the house.  The second sump is a stand sump basket that maybe holds 7-10 gallons of water.  The first one does nearly all the work and in the spring it runs ever 7-10 minutes.

The discharge is a 1.5 inch flexible pipe that I ran out of the house and down the hill.  It discharges into a device that has an open grate at the top and there is a 4 inch corrugated line that runs out of the box and further down to a ditch in the front yard.  It works well but freezes up in the winter.

I set it up so that when the line freezes I can open a valve and discharge into the laundry tubs.  The drain line from the furnace/ac runs into the first sump basket so it needs to be able to drain during the winter.

The one modification that I made was to install a valve on the discharge line that breaks the vacuum and allows the discharge line to empty without an delay.  That cleans out the line so that when the pumps go on they don't have to move all that water.  You may want to do this to get things moving a bit more quickly.

One more thing.  I took a standard boat sump pump and modified it so I can hook a hose to it.  I also took a long cord and set it up so I can hook it up to a car battery.  If things go really bad I can run the jury rigged setup with the hose running out the garage door.  There is very little head on the pump but it really doesn't pump that much water.  Good enough if the power goes out - assuming I am around to set it up.