Mille Lacs Pike...Not Surprising

[merkman]

Do you have a cite for the northern with 47 perch? Please provide a link?

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fisheries/largelakes/millelacs/newsletter/homll_201501.pdf

Interesting reading about the diet of these fish.... this is a lake that has had length based regulations and darkhouse spearing bans for years (the same type of length based regulations the MnDNR is proposing to blindly place on lakes statewide (even winterkill lakes)... and the northern pike still eat the other fish out of house and home.

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[delcecchi]

So the solution is to stab them all and let god sort them out?

[derbier122x]

According to that source, the spear fisherman took to majority of all pike through the ice. Also gave the fewest "passes". Or is this part of your article false because it doesn't fit your opinions you have spouted all winter long on various threads?

[tolle141]

One of the biggest problems on Mille Lacs is they don't completely understand the root cause of the biggest problem, which is recruitment of YOY walleyes. Pike may have something to do with it, but it's the juvenile pike that were the concern there - their numbers in inshore netting went through the roof all of a sudden. Mille Lacs has had a model pike population up until very recently - moderate numbers overall, good size distribution, good numbers of mature fish. That changed, and changed rapidly, and THAT, not the numbers of big fish, was the reason behind the change in pike regs. If you look at perch, and perhaps even the walleyes, a surge in small pike numbers and corresponding decline in perch tracks with what is occurring and has occurred on lakes all over the state. We're just so used to it we don't notice anymore. I think encouraging harvest of smaller pike was a good decision, even though I wish they'd done something to protect the big fish in there, because the hammering they took was completely predictable. But if high numbers of small pike are part of the problem, hammering the big pike doesn't seem to be part of the solution, especially when the main predator of small pike is big pike.

This is another case where sportsmen as a group, when given the opportunity to exercise some self-restraint, don't. Individuals may, but as a group, not so much. There is an essay by Garret Hardin called The Tragedy of the Commons, to which I've referred many times, which states that individuals acting independently and rationally according to each's self-interest behave contrary to the best interests of the whole group by depleting a common resource.

This is a classic example. Individuals take their one or two big fish, and individually, one or two big fish out of a lake the size of Mille Lacs isn't a significant impact, but collectively, those one or two big fish each individual is 'entitled' to add up to 20% of the pike over 36" in a single winter angling season.

There's another element to Hardin's essay that is important here too... He states that there is a class of problems for which there is no technical solution. Science and technology can't get us out of the mess... Only changing human behavior can.

The ciscoe decline...that's mixed up in it too but the reality there is ciscoes are likely doomed in Mille Lacs anyhow due to climate change. Mille Lacs is at the lower end of their range to begin with, and has always had die-offs in hot weather. There, and on other lakes, those die-offs are happening with greater frequency. In the past populations could recover because enough juvenile ciscoes (which are far more tolerant of warm temps than adults) survived to rebuild the population. With a greater frequency of die-offs, there is less time to recover the population fully between each event. The population goes down the stairs one step at a time and eventually drops below a sustainable level. Mille Lacs will be one of the first to go because it's shallow and doesn't stratify. Deeper, cooler lakes will hold out longer, but along the lower edge of the ciscoe's range, they're pretty much toast due to a warming climate - no pun intended.

The muskie piece in the ODN - that's me, and believe me, the crying has already started. A totally separate issue from ML, but the peak fishery we had when that first generation of stocked fished reached maturity was a predictable artificial high, and has played out on stocked lakes with muskies and other species over and over and over. For muskie anglers who started fishing during the heyday and think that's what muskie fishing is like, it's a letdown. But, as I said in the ODN, muskie anglers asked for a world class trophy fishery, and that's what they got. If what they wanted was big fish and lots of them, that was never in the cards.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

[RK]

Please site this article.

A hyperlink to the article would be nice.

I would like to see the "science" that backs that number.

Link to Star Tribune article by Doug Smith

[merkman]

According to that source, the spear fisherman took to majority of all pike through the ice. Also gave the fewest "passes". Or is this part of your article false because it doesn't fit your opinions you have spouted all winter long on various threads?

That is one way to look at it derbier122x....

Or you could look at the number of pike killed by all methods where open water and tribal make up 62% of all pike killed according to these results.

I guess you could always ban darkhouse spearing then the individuals who do choose to harvest large pike will be counted in the anglers group instead of the darkhouse spearing group.... I don't think that will do much to help the resource though... since mother nature really don't care how the fish are killed.

Maybe you could just take everyone's fishing licence away for all methods if they choose to harvest northern pike?

[delcecchi]

If spearing is such a great tradition and sporting way to harvest fish, why is it confined to Carp, Suckers, and Northerns? If it is OK for Northerns it ought to be OK for any harvestable fish species.

And why do so many people get bent out of shape over natives spearing fish but not "whites" spearing fish?

[merkman]

Link to Star Tribune article by Doug Smith

Thanks for the link.....

well it is getting a lot less ambiguous now....

[Pereira] acknowledged that “a number” of large fish were taken.

I will email him and ask him exactly what number "a number" is.

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[derbier122x]

Congrats merk, that is the closest to admitting you were incorrect I have ever seen from you. Never did I say it should be banned. As a matter of fact, I would love to try it. I'm referring more to the many other threads where you said the ice anglers killed far more large pike than spearers. I don't have the arguing bone in my body today and also have far better things to do with my time than to search for the numerous examples, but that was my simple point after seeing the charts and info from the article you linked.

[merkman]

Congrats merk, that is the closest to admitting you were incorrect I have ever seen from you. Never did I say it should be banned. As a matter of fact, I would love to try it. I'm referring more to the many other threads where you said the ice anglers killed far more large pike than spearers. I don't have the arguing bone in my body today and also have far better things to do with my time than to search for the numerous examples, but that was my simple point after seeing the charts and info from the article you linked.

Please do spend the time to look.

I fully stand behind my claim that angling kills more northern pike than darkhouse spearing as the results of this and many other studies clearly show.

As I have said time and time again compare the entire season of angling against the entire season of darkhouse spearing through the ice and it is plain to see that angling kills more northern pike. .. that is more large northern pike, more medium northern pike and more small northern pike.

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[Sculpin]

If you want to read a fascinating study on the effects of angling pressure on pike overall, go to Dennis Anderson's column in the Mpls. Trib. Outdoors section, Sunday, 4/26/15.

Basically lays out an ongoing small lake study undertaken over the last ten years by a private group on a lake near Walker, MN. They have been tagging and releasing pike by the hundreds during the study.

During the winter season the group fishes the lake with tip up's and minnows. In the 2013/14 season, a total of 97 pike were caught and released, of the 97, only seven had not been caught before, while the remaining 90 had been caught and released a total of 431 times during the study period.

Upshot: If you want big pike, they have to be protected over a very long period of time.

[brian6715]

As I have said time and time again compare the entire season of angling against the entire season of darkhouse spearing through the ice and it is plain to see that angling kills more northern pike. .. that is more large northern pike, more medium northern pike and more small northern pike.

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Just the fact that the two methods are even close in terms of numbers they kill shows the problem. The spearing season is substantially shorter than the angling season and there is a fraction of spear-fishermen as compared to anglers, but yet that small number with spears still harvests a large portion of the pike that are killed in our lakes.

I don't have a problem with spearing, I think it has it's place... but I do have a problem with people declaring that spearing is not as harmful to pike populations as angling is, IMO that is a selfish view on the spear-fisherman's part.

[brian6715]

During the winter season the group fishes the lake with tip up's and minnows. In the 2013/14 season, a total of 97 pike were caught and released, of the 97, only seven had not been caught before, while the remaining 90 had been caught and released a total of 431 times during the study period.

Upshot: If you want big pike, they have to be protected over a very long period of time.

In the future they should do the same study on spearing and see how many of the pike speared have previously been speared and released....

[Sculpin]

I'm not advocating for any "method". The point is, studies like the one ongoing in the Anderson article demonstrate the vulnerability of pike, and how long it takes to grow and ultimately sustain a decent population. You can wipe them out by angling, unquestionably.

How it all relates to Mille Lacs remains to be seen. The DNR continues to shuffle their goofy deck, and come up with even more bizarre harvest scenarios. If it were not so sad, it would almost be comical.

[derbier122x]

In the future they should do the same study on spearing and see how many of the pike speared have previously been speared and released....

I bet Merk spins it to make this sound like a legit future study...

[merkman]

In the future they should do the same study on spearing and see how many of the pike speared have previously been speared and released....

As long as it is fair and apples to apples.

Compare how dead a fish harvested by hook and line is to how dead a fish harvested by spear is....

Of course if you are into apples to oranges comparisons you might as well see how many of the pike harvested by hook and line have previously been look and released... it would make as much sense.

A fish killed is a dead fish no matter the method.

The resource only sees how many fish were killed and as long as that is sustainable who cares what method killed them.

No different than a deer being killed by a riffle, shotgun, bow and arrow, or muzzle loader.... they are all dead.

Supporting sustainable harvest of wild fish and game is far from selfish.

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[merkman]

The DNR continues to shuffle their goofy deck, and come up with even more bizarre harvest scenarios. If it were not so sad, it would almost be comical.

I AGREE 100%!!!!

I feel for the CO's that have to try to enforce all these silly rules... when they can't even keep up with them themselves.

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[delcecchi]

Please do spend the time to look.

I fully stand behind my claim that angling kills more northern pike than darkhouse spearing as the results of this and many other studies clearly show.

As I have said time and time again compare the entire season of angling against the entire season of darkhouse spearing through the ice and it is plain to see that angling kills more northern pike. .. that is more large northern pike, more medium northern pike and more small northern pike.

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To be fair and honest you should normalize and quote kills per angler per trip

[derbier122x]

It appears in the graph labeled "northern pike killed" to be about the same number harvested 25 and larger by both means. Now shift to 30 and larger and the numbers actually start to show a very spear heavy trend in comparison to the total number of that size range. Get to 35 and over and, well, even Merk should see a very possible reason for the updated harvest rules.

[derbier122x]

Add to it this thought: spearing the entire open season(if it were possible) just how skewed the numbers would be in the other direction as far as total numbers taken... Kinda scary.

[merkman]

Get to 35 and over and, well, even Merk should see a very possible reason for the updated harvest rules.

I know huh....

According to this study the number of northern pike over 40 inches kept in open water is statistically a big goose egg.

Why do you think that is the case?

99.999999% of open water anglers release northern pike over 40 inches?

Hummm... interesting indeed.

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[delcecchi]

I know huh....

According to this study the number of northern pike over 40 inches kept in open water is statistically a big goose egg.

Why do you think that is the case?

99.999999% of open water anglers release northern pike over 40 inches?

Hummm... interesting indeed.

Basically almost no anglers catch northerns over 40 in open water in Minnesota. Maybe on Lake of the Woods, or Rainy a few are caught.

[DTro]

RELEASING the trophy sized fish is exactly how it should work!! It’s called selective harvest. I keep hearing over and over about this “look and release” thing which is great, I’m all for it, but in the end if you look and look and look and then finally stick a 40+, there is zero chance of that fish surviving. Now take that scenario and apply it to all the spearers and maybe you can why big fish start to disappear. Take 1 big fish out and its either replaced by another big one or several small ones.

If (and I say if because we all want to see our lakes managed a little bit differently)we want to see and catch big fish again, then education towards a zero harvest on trophy fish is where these discussions need to go. This is not limited to spearing, but across the board for everyone. That is the reality and I know it psssses off a lot of people who are taxidermists or those that want a fish hanging on the wall when I say it, but its time to stop killing big fish solely for the purposes of a wall decoration. If we want to enjoy the thrill of catching large fish, then we can’t keep taking em out. If not, then accept the reality of hammer handles and keep bickering year after year after year.

[CaptainMusky]

That is one way to look at it derbier122x....

Or you could look at the number of pike killed by all methods where open water and tribal make up 62% of all pike killed according to these results.

I guess you could always ban darkhouse spearing then the individuals who do choose to harvest large pike will be counted in the anglers group instead of the darkhouse spearing group.... I don't think that will do much to help the resource though... since mother nature really don't care how the fish are killed.

Maybe you could just take everyone's fishing licence away for all methods if they choose to harvest northern pike?

Showing a pie chart with harvest numbers is one thing, but lets show size distribution of those harvested fish and I will bet you dollars to donuts there is a tremendous disparity between the size of those "fewer" fish harvested in the winter to those numbers harvested in the open water.

To make sure I am clear, the pike harvested in the winter will have a much higher average size IMO and THAT is more important than numbers. Since the population is so high, reduce the numbers of small fish, not take the trophies out. 10 hammer handles will eat more forage than 1 trophy and the ratio of hammer handles to trophies is probably closer to 100 to 1.

[delcecchi]

Just a few facts to add to the fire.

In Minnesota in 2014, pretty near 1 million people got fishing licenses. 26,236 spearing licenses were sold.

A quote from DNR... in

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/293956431.html

Quote:

The Mille Lacs creel survey showed spearers took 2,800 of the 3,175 northerns harvested this winter. The rest were caught by anglers...Total weight of the northerns was 18,400 pounds....

While this year’s harvest is triple that amount, the total yearly northern harvest, including open-water fishing, should be well below the 50,000-pound safe-harvest target. Last year, summer anglers took about 16,000 pounds of northerns. Chippewa bands also were allocated 50,000 pounds.

“I have no concerns of overharvest,” said Rick Bruesewitz, DNR area fisheries manager.....

Jerry Brandt owns Brandt’s Ice Fishing, a rental house business on the south end of the big lake. He added two darkhouses this winter to his bevy of 26 ice-fishing houses.

“I wish I would have had more darkhouses,” he said. “We were booked through the middle of January. It was fantastic to start with, then slowed down.

“No one took that many fish; they were after trophies,” he said. “They didn’t want the little ones.”