New statewide Pike Regs

[live4chrome]

Creepworm, the slots on mission are experimental for larger pike, not because the lake needs them. There isn't even a resort on the lake anymore. Before the public landing was put in on lower, I would catch walleyes right out from it. Now there are too many weeds. I used to catch crappies whenever I wanted, know I can't find them. I feel the slots have changed the lake for the worse.

Slots don't change the weeds in a lake. I bet you $$ that ais, and increased development and use of fertilizer is what caused all the weeds in your lake, and that increased fishing pressure is what caused a shift in the fish populations.

The intent of these regs is to make the fishing better, not worse.

It's not the past anymore. If people are complaining about the status of their lakes now compared to what they were 25 years ago imagine what they will be like in another 25 years. There have been huge technological advances made that make harvesting fish easier. We need to take measures to balance that out. If that means releasing fish of a size that should be released anyways so be it

[Spike76]

Mission has less pressure for the last 6 or 8 years. The weeds are from lake jumpers that probably didn't realize they were doing it. If the intent isn't to make the lake better for everyone, then it is wrong. I know it's not the past anymore. I can tell by how the younger fellas don't respect their elders. So be it is another way of saying you don't care. I see that the lake isn't better with the slots, and I do care what happens on mission.

[merkman]

Because the MDAA decides to go through the legislature, bypassing the DNR completely, to arbitrarily cap the number of lakes that can have slots.

The MDAA has not bypassed the MnDNR completely as stated by creepworm.

The MDAA has spent years working with the MnDNR and the no harvest trophy groups just to arrive at the exact same place as this thread ends up.... if you don't like the rules we put in place try a different method of fishing (namely the method we enjoy not the method you enjoy).

Angling and darkhouse spearing are legal methods of fishing for northern pike in Minnesota and both methods have been around much longer than the slot limit regulations.

When the MnDNR chose to make the current rules for slot limts they took into account the catch and release no harvest crowds concerns and continually ignored the concerns of the responsible harvest crowd that includes but is not limited to darkhouse spearers.

Every meeting the MDAA attended basically gave them the choice much like this tread does to accept the regulations as they are or give up your method of fishing and use our method. The regulations will not be changed to include your method of fishing.

This is the equivalent of the anti-gun people telling the NRA to stop using handguns and that they should not fight it because they have other guns to shoot. Why are you being so selfish as to not give up your handguns? There are plenty of other guns to shoot.

Until the no harvest trophy crowd understands that these are public lakes and there is enough room for everyone on these lakes nothing will change.... Not everyone wants to turn our public lakes into private aquariums.... nor should they.

For those who enjoy responsible harvest and have not organized; you can continue to see more and more seasons close along with shutting down more and more lakes and methods until there is nothing left of fishing except the no harvest summer time catch and release only "utopia" that these trophy hunters are going after.

If PETA were half as effective at taking away as many rights and privileges as our fellow sportsmen in the trophy crowd there would be public outrage throughout the fishing community.

So the big question is... how are these two groups going to play nice with each other?

And how do you get to a resolution that will not slowly slip one way or the other over time....

The rest is all smoke and mirrors.

Good luck out there.

-Merk

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[delcecchi]

Merkman, you put spearers in a class you call the "responsible harvest crowd", and referred to those who want tougher regulations as the "no harvest crowd".

What evidence is there, beyond anecdotal, that the vast majority of spearers as well as many anglers aren't actually in the "harvest whatever the law allows if you can do it" and even the "I want to harvest even more so let's change the law" crowd.

You personally claim to speak for "many spearers" and oppose any size based restriction on spearing. Slots, maximum size, anything. Or have you actually proposed some restriction of spearing harvest that is acceptable to the community of spearing.

You try to drag the gun issue in. I could say that the position of the MDAA is like those 2nd amendment absolutists who want tanks and artillery to be legal.

And the MDAA did bypass the DNR when they got the legislature to cap the number of special regulation slot limit lakes at 100 and re-open Cass to spearing.

[derbier122x]

I have been watching this thread since the start, and would just like to chime in now that my blood pressure is going up a bit. Across the board of most species, as much as I normally hate the govt regulating everything, something needs to be done so my children and hopefully eventual grandchildren still have fish left to catch. If I happen to be in the increased harvest area then great. Some of the little pike I catch will go home with me. More often than not, I release what I catch unless a fish fry is in order once every couple months.

[live4chrome]

The majority of spearers and anglers fall into the category of take whatever is legal type of fishermen. Especially ice fishermen. If we want to continue to have quality fisheries something should be done. It's not just a pike issue but fixing the problems we have with pike harvest is a huge step forwards.

Spearers can follow slot limits too, however most don't like them as most prefer to target the bigger fish. Our laws should be about protecting and making the fisheries better, not about letting people kill whatever they want.

[merkman]

And the MDAA did bypass the DNR when they got the legislature to cap the number of special regulation slot limit lakes at 100 and re-open Cass to spearing.

[JP Z]

I haven't speared in years.....decades? But from what I remember it is a bit difficult to tell exact sizes of fish before you hit them. So don't slot limits make it very difficult to spear fish in a lake? Or basically you get your one fish that is over and after that maybe have to quit because "close" doesn't count with slot limits. Right?

[merkman]

Spearers can follow slot limits too, however most don't like them as most prefer to target the bigger fish.

Most don't like the current rules for slot limit lakes for the simple reason that the rules are angler centric.

A fisherman catches and unintentionally kills a slot limit fish with hook and line; their recourse is to return the dead fish to the water and keep fishing.

The same fisherman; fishing in the same house, in the same hole, unintentionally kills a slot limit fish with a darkhouse spear; they face a healthy fine, an arrest record, possible confiscation of their equipment etc etc.

Same dead slot limit fish in the end... much different penalty based solely upon the method of fishing.

Now if you feel those rules are fair and balanced... then obviously you don't darkhouse spear.

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[DTro]

Straight from the MNDNR HSOforum:

A pure no-kill restriction would most closely replicate the conditions that exist on remote lakes that are fabled for their large northern pike.

In some lakes, the DNR has increased the possession limit and imposed size restrictions to encourage anglers to take more small fish. The hope is that through decreased competition, the remaining fish will grow larger. In other lakes, the DNR has banned spearing to protect the large northern pike that otherwise might fall prey to that method of fishing.

Some biologists believe a slot of length limit or maximum-size limit will protect large fish and create a trophy fishery. Meanwhile, anglers could keep some small fish, which are common in most lakes anyway.

What is necessary for Minnesota to steer toward a "big-northern-pike" policy on select waters where northern pike can grow large? Anglers will have to stand up for such a policy. They will have to convince other anglers that catching and re-catching big northern pike is worth more than killing and eating big northern pike.

[merkman]

Straight from the MnDNR HSOforum:

DNR has banned spearing to protect the large northern pike that otherwise might fall prey to that method of fishing.

[delcecchi]

Still buthurt over the alleged bypassing of the MnDNR to re-opening Cass to darkhouse spearing huh?

Of course in your world; the opening of any Minnesota lake to darkhouse spearing is going against the MnDNRs wishes...

Better accuse the MnDNR of going around the MnDNR to re-open more lakes to darkhouse spearing then...

...

It don't get anymore clear that that del....

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The fact is that the DNR was bypassed by the MDAA over Cass, and over a bunch of lakes with slots. Actually the slot thing bugs me more than the Cass thing.

I am waiting to see if/when the DNR publishes the data on the effect of spearing on Cass, since it is pretty much a controlled experiment. Most everything the same, except the re-introduction of spearing.

I think it is pretty funny that all sorts of folks get "butt hurt" when some natives net or spear walleye, but are all "Let's go spear some northerns, it's our tradition"

[merkman]

I think it is pretty funny that all sorts of folks get "butt hurt" when some natives net or spear walleye, but are all "Let's go spear some northerns, it's our tradition"

I guess they don't share your hatred of darkhouse spearers del.

My guess is that they are intelligent enough to understand that darkhouse spearing northern pike though the ice is a whole different thing than open water spearing.

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[live4chrome]

With the penalty it all comes down to intent. When you throw a spear, just like when you pull the trigger on a deer in a zone with APRs. You better know the legality of your target. The second you throw your spear you INTEND to kill the fish. If you hook one while angling and for some reason it un intentionally dies there was no intent to kill the fish, it just happened. One is a punishable offense and one is not, the reason being intent. Even if you didn't intend for the fish to be larger than it was once you killed it, you killed it intentionally and it was your mistake.

If someone were to shoot a deer that they thought was legal, but turns out it wasn't they would still get punished to the extent of the law, would they not?

Im not anti spearing at all. I'm pro having quality fisheries in our state and if that means protecting large apex predator fish for the health of all species in a lake then I am all for it. I would rather catch and release (or look and release) a trophy pike than never have the opportunity to catch or see one or have it happen only a few times during my lifetime.

[merkman]

So live4chrome... you speak of intent.... is there intent to kill the wrong sized fish while darkhouse spearing?

Is the fact that you can see the fish while darkhouse spearing that makes the difference?

if so why not hold anglers using cameras to the same standard?

Obviously they can see that the pike in front of their lure is a slot limit fish... they still intend to catch it knowing that it could be killed in the process.

In the end is the slot limit fish not just as dead if by a mistake of an underwater tail pinch on a live moving fish or by mistake of over playing gut hooking or other angling mortality?

If you hook one while angling and for some reason it un intentionally dies there was no intent to kill the fish, it just happened.

Why are we so quick to automatically label a slot limit fish killed by hooking mortality as a forgivable mistake and hold the same end result a crime if the underwater tailpinch was not made correctly.

That view seems a little anglercentric to me.

The fact of the matter is to include both methods of responsible harvest we need different rules than the current slot limit rules.

What those laws should be... well that is up to the MNDNR and their biologists to figure out... once they come up with rules that are fair to both methods then they will be getting somewhere. The continual forcing a square peg into a round hole is a waste of their time and tax payers money. All it really accomplishes is the division of sportsmen.

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[creepworm]

What those laws should be... well that is up to the MNDNR and their biologists to figure out...

I thought it was for the MDAA and their cronies in the legislator to figure out, or that is the way it has been done in the past.

[creepworm]

A fisherman catches and unintentionally kills a slot limit fish with hook and line; their recourse is to return the dead fish to the water and keep fishing.

1. Why is it only possible for hook and line anglers to return a dead fish to the water? Could a spear fisherman not slide the pike in question under the ice and out of sight?

2. You seem to fail to understand that 100% of the pike that are speared, die. While less than 5% of the pike that are caught and released, die. Very big difference.

[delcecchi]

I guess they don't share your hatred of darkhouse spearers del.

My guess is that they are intelligent enough to understand that darkhouse spearing northern pike though the ice is a whole different thing than open water spearing.

Tell me how they are different, please. A fish with a spear in it seems the end result in both cases. It is just that non-natives can't open water spear walleye or pike. Why not? Ice, open water, pike, walleye, what's the significant difference? I bet it would be a blast to put on fins and snorkel and take a speargun out on the reefs on a good walleye lake. I could do a little look and release and then impale one for dinner. And wading in the shallows with a headlamp in the spring? Now that's a real stalk. Of course we would have to get rid of the slots since that would make it too hard to tell if the Walleye was a legal size.

Come on, give me a rational reason for spearing pike and not walleye and ice but not open water. The arguments against walleye and open water seem to me to apply equally well to ice and pike.

[merkman]

2. You seem to fail to understand that 100% of the pike that are speared, die. While less than 5% of the pike that are caught and released, die. Very big difference.

You fail to understand that 100% of fish harvested by either method die.

You are trying to compare the harvest by spear to the release by hook and line and that is not an apples to apples comparison.

On the release side

100% of look and released fish are unharmed in any way; as a matter of fact they don't even leave their environment.

While 100% of fish released by hook and line are hurt in some way shape or form... up to and including death for those 5% each time that fish is caught.

The issue here is unintentionally killed slot limit northern pike by the two methods.

Dead is dead and neither fisherman intended to kill a slot limit fish. (heck it could be the same fisherman, in the same house, in the same hole for that matter)

By the current rules one faces an arrest record.. the other throws the dead fish back in the water and continues fishing.

The anglers outnumber the darkhouse spearers by 100 to 1 in Minnesota.

Responsible harvest folks have a defined limit of fish they fish for then go home.

There is no limit on the number of fish you can catch and release in Minnesota.

Just how many slot limit fish are killed each year by hook and liners?

The current rules need to be reworked.

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[merkman]

Come on, give me a rational reason for spearing pike and not walleye and ice but not open water. The arguments against walleye and open water seem to me to apply equally well to ice and pike.

If you have ever cut a darkhouse spear hole through 2 and a half feet of ice you would know the difference del.

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[AWH]

Merk,

If anyone is going to know this, it's probably going to be you. I don't know if this data is even out there. But when it comes to spearing, is there any kind of statistical data that estimates how often the spear is thrown where it doesn't result in a landed fish? Either an outright miss, one where the spear hits the fish but doesn't stick, or where the fish falls off the spear before landing? If we are going to talk mortality rate comparisons, we should be factoring this in as well.

That is getting away from the topic at hand here. But since mortality rates were brought up, we should make sure we are being honest in the comparisons.

Aaron

[merkman]

Merk,

If anyone is going to know this, it's probably going to be you. I don't know if this data is even out there. But when it comes to spearing, is there any kind of statistical data that estimates how often the spear is thrown where it doesn't result in a landed fish? Either an outright miss, one where the spear hits the fish but doesn't stick, or where the fish falls off the spear before landing? If we are going to talk mortality rate comparisons, we should be factoring this in as well.

That is getting away from the topic at hand here. But since mortality rates were brought up, we should make sure we are being honest in the comparisons.

Aaron

That would be a good study.

I would think a clean miss is a miss...

When I throw the spear I expect that fish to be dead much like a summer time angler who puts the fish on the stringer.

Now if the fish got off the stringer and lived or lived after being speared that would be interesting to see just how many actually lived or died... i know there is a percentage but I don't know how many.

but once again you are trying to compare harvest vs release.

A release in darkhouse spearing is performed by not throwing the spear.

Do mortality rates on the angling side include non landed fish?

[AWH]

I'm really not trying to compare anything. I just want the comparisons being made to be using actual real life facts. Seems deceptive to act like it's either a dead fish or zero harm done when spearing.

I don't know what any of this has to do with the potential new pike regs. But it's a shame to get off track with the same old nonsense all the time.

Aaron

[B420]

I saw some creel survey data from Mille Lacs from earlier this winter that showed exactly this type of information. It showed that roughly 1 out of every 8 pike that swam through had the spear thrown that did not result in a harvested fish. It specifically categorized them where the spear was thrown but no fish was landed. This was early in the season. So the total sample size was only 160 (roughly) that were seen at this time. But 1 out of 8 was a much higher number than I would have ever expected. Unfortunately, there was no data that showed how many of those fish were struck and how many were completely missed. But it sure seems reasonable that most were struck, which would likely have a high mortality rate.

[AWH]

Thanks, B420. Good to know that they are at least taking that part of the sport into account.

Now let's focus on improving the statewide pike regulations and improve the overall health of our fisheries. I would anticipate some tweaks to the proposed changes shown in the presentation here. But it's a great starting point to making some long overdue changes to the regulations. Would love to be able to take more than 3 pike under 22" to help thin out the hammer handles and have some great table fare as well!

Aaron