Could this be a way to stop regulators from freezing up?

[MNfan]

I did not do this intentionly but I installed my furnace to exhaust out the front V in my house, and then the only convieniant place to mount my two 20 lb tanks was in front of vent. So far it has worked well it was -38 on Red the other night and many were having propane issues but I think the heat blowing on my tanks help keep pressure up helping avoid issues. I have also thought about a leak allowing gas to get pulled in the fresh air vent but decided it would just get burned as it went through the furnace.

Andy

[Genofish]

for sure moisture in a regulator will ruin a trip, keep a spare on hand.

[Gordie]

I did not do this intentionly but I installed my furnace to exhaust out the front V in my house, and then the only convieniant place to mount my two 20 lb tanks was in front of vent. So far it has worked well it was -38 on Red the other night and many were having propane issues but I think the heat blowing on my tanks help keep pressure up helping avoid issues. I have also thought about a leak allowing gas to get pulled in the fresh air vent but decided it would just get burned as it went through the furnace.

Andy

[slammer]

Could the regulator be mounted inside the house somewhere or does it need fresh air to function?

[outkast7222]

It should be outside in case it ever fails and vents gas. I have seen people extend the rubber line so they can pull the tank and regulator in the front window if it freezes up.

[CAMAN]

Has anyone ever tried using an exhaust gas heat exchanger to keep the tanks warm? Connecting the heat exchanger to the exhaust of the heater and having a closed circuit looped hose that is wrapped around the tanks and regulators and filled with glycol(?) being pumped with a 12 volt (maybe 120 if using a generator) pump. You wouldn't need to run it all the time and could make it removable and only connect it when needed.

The only possible issue that I foresee is the heat exchanger may create too much restriction on the exhaust from the heater and not allow it to vent properly. Anyone ever worked with one and know if that is something heat exchangers could possibly do?

Otherwise I see it as a safe and reliable option to keep everything warm.

Now if you got rid of the standard heater and threw an in-floor heating system in and added a circuit to the propane tanks that would be the ultimate way to go.

[boXCar JiggY]

Harveys got it down, in the begining of this post. Get a 100 lber from the big trip up north, go to your local propane dealer, cenex, farmers union ect, or research for the proper size regulater for a 100lber, you wont have an issue except hose length. regulators cant be coverd, they have a vent. the 100 lber will last days without worry, yes its heavy an cumbersome. but you are int the middle of a build an you can customize to accomodat the cylinder. Have a spare regulator just incase.

[MnIceman]

Never run a direct connection to an open flame any where near the propane tank, regulator or batteries . The vent on the regulator , the safety vent on the propane tank and batteries that are charging or discharging heavily all could expel at anytime explosive gases that could be ignited by the furnace. If the tank needs to be warmed up, you can pour warm water over the tank ( not the regulator and valve ).

[Gordie]

A few safety tips.

Quote:

HOW SHOULD I STORE SMALL CYLINDERS?

NEVER store or place a propane cylinder indoors or in an enclosed area such as a basement, garage, shed, or tent.

NEVER store or place a propane cylinder in an area of excessive heat (120 degrees or higher) or near a stove, fireplace, or other heat source. The heat builds up pressure inside the cylinder, which may cause the pressure relief valve to release propane. Flash fires or explosions can result from exposing cylinders to heat.

NEVER store or place a spare cylinder under or near a barbecue grill.

DO NOT smoke or have any ignition sources such as flames or spark-producing electrical tools in the area while handling or transporting cylinders.

Quote:

WHAT SHOULD I DO IF I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY CYLINDERS OR OUTDOOR APPLIANCES?

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO MODIFY OR REPAIR VALVES, REGULATORS, OR OTHER CYLINDER OR APPLIANCE PARTS. Propane cylinders incorporate special components such as valves, connectors, and other parts to keep them safe for use with grills and other propane appliances. Damage to any component can cause a gas leak.

DON’T RISK IT! Call your propane retailer or a qualified service technician for assistance.

[harvey lee]

Harveys got it down, in the begining of this post. Get a 100 lber from the big trip up north, go to your local propane dealer, cenex, farmers union ect, or research for the proper size regulater for a 100lber, you wont have an issue except hose length. regulators cant be coverd, they have a vent. the 100 lber will last days without worry, yes its heavy an cumbersome. but you are int the middle of a build an you can customize to accomodat the cylinder. Have a spare regulator just incase.

The wheel house I purchased a few short weeks ago came with 20#er's. I had nothing but issues except for 1 day when it was 29 degree's. The last 5 trips out and 2 overnight, I had a 100#er hooked up and never any issues. LP will turn into a solid if it gets cold enough outside and I believe that air temp is -44. So, when it gets very cold, say -20 and you have a half empty 20#er hooked up, very doubtful you will have any pressure in the tank to feed the furnace. Nice part about the larger tank, way less time changing tanks since they emptied.

I truely believe most issues can be resolved with the larger tank. One may believe they have a frozen regulater when they have no gas pressure in the tank to get to the heater.

If one is concerned about the addded cost to purchase a 100# tank, many co-ops will lend u a tank if you purchase the propnae from them. Then it's just the fact the tank is a tad heavier than the smaller ones. I lift it into my pick up- box by myself so for 2 guys to do it, that should not be an issue.

For those really cold days, get a blanket or some of the heavy insulation like in a roll and wrap the tank, just leave the vent area free or open on the regulator.

Smart move to also have a extra regulator just incase you have a issue with that.

[CAMAN]

Quote:

LP will turn into a solid if it gets cold enough outside and I believe that air temp is -44. 

LOL! Where'd you hear that from? At -44f propane stops giving off a vapor, but it takes some -300f for it to crystallize.

[harvey lee]

Thats what I meant, it stops vaporizing. Typed incorrectly.

Glad your here to help.

[BigDogRob]

Harv, don't take it personally! Some just live to correct people...I guess we will always need teachers... lol

[CAMAN]

You better get out fishing

[Redlineracer12]

I think a much safer bet would be to wire some sort of heated blanket up to the house electric. Either a bottle heater similar to what they use for nitrous oxide tanks in car applications, or even a heating element for heated seats would probably work, both are available in 12V, but it looks like you can get the bottle heater in 110V as well. Plug that baby right into your generator and you should be good to go.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nos-14164-110nos/overview/

[CANOPY SAM]

I don't see how wind/or snow has anything to do with regulator freeze up? Although I can see where it wouldn't help if snow was blowing onto the regulator, I think it has something, or everything to do with running cold propane quickly thru a cold regulator.

Even while running my garage/barn heater indoors, semi-enclosed, with no wind or snow blowing on the propane cylinder, the regulator will quickly be covered with condensation and begin to freeze up. Seems like this happens more rapidly the faster I attempt to run propane thru the regulator?

As it applies to the fish house, I've actually given a lot of thought to exactly what the original poster was thinking, but have been poo-pooed by virtually everyone I've discussed it with.

I'd think the safest and wisest way to approach this problem would be to actually consult a propane professional. Someone who knows the dynamics and specs required for working with propane on a daily basis. Admittedly, that's NOT me!

[Gordie]

If it were a regulator problem don't you think that all the houses, farms and places that use propane to heat in the winter would be affected.

Its about the liquid gas itself and how fast it can vaporize in the cold weather. Propane in those tanks is liquid and it has to vaporize to make the gas to burn the flame in your heater. LP boils at -32 below zero so that should give you an Idea of what is happening when your tank is frosting up.

[CANOPY SAM]

So Gordie, when you say "boils at -32 below zero", do you mean the liquid propane turns to a gaseous form at that temp?

So below -32 degrees, much or most of the liquid propane remains in a liquid form, and gels inside the tank and regulator?

We, like most farmsteads, have a 500-gallon propane tank out back that feeds our indoor furnace. Right now that tank is sitting outside, with a wind chill factor hitting against it at around -45 to -55 degrees below zero. The regulator sits on top of the tank, under a heavy metal cover, but it's certainly not completely "protected" from the elements. I'm sure the ambient temp at the regulator is essentially the same as the outside ambient temp (-26 degrees F) right now.

So why is it that our permanently outside propane tank never has any freezing issues? I'd imagine it has something to do with the pressure in the tank with 300+ gallons of liquid propane, but what about when it runs low, say down to 20-30 gallons?

I'm still curious about why a regulator on a 20-gallon cylinder seems to freeze up more quickly the faster I push propane thru it? There has to be some other dynamic law of some kind that's at work here?

I mean isn't it fair to assume that if I crank it wide open the heater will be warming the ambient air temp in the garage higher, hence warming the tank and regulator more quickly? But no! The faster I run cold propane thru a cold regulator the faster that regulator freezes up! Same thing happens with the BBQ grill during exceptionally cold winter evenings.

Perhaps that's why the earlier poster who said he actually just heats the propane tank itself, and solves the problem before it even reaches the regulator?

[harvey lee]

for sure moisture in a regulator will ruin a trip, keep a spare on hand.

If one just has a small amount of moisture in the regulator, try some of those hand packet heaters and wrap a towel around the regulator with a couple packets under the towel. That should give off enough heat to get the thing flowing agin at least until you can get a better fix.

[Gordie]

Sam, I sorry I posted the wrong number too, Liquid propane will boil at -44. I use to work with propane and installed conversion systems that would change the gas of propane to the same as natural gas so big corporations could go on stand by if needed. like today they would be called to go on stand by and they would flip[ a couple of switches and turn a few valves and run their system off of propane if the demand for natural gas was high in return they would get a discount from the natural gas companies. I am not a professional by any means and I did not sleep at a holiday inn last night.

I can not explain it but I hope this helps you understand it.

Its about volume and how fast it can vaporize.

Quote:

These properties may seem somewhat difficult to understand so let's explain them in terms a bit less technical for those of us that aren't engineers in some capacity. We'll also help explain how these properties are relevant in the real world.

Propane Boiling Point - Water boils at 212°F meaning that it becomes a gas at this temperature whereas water is still a liquid at 200°F. Propane is a liquid at -50°F and boils at -44°F. In other words, at 10 degrees below zero, propane is well past its boiling point. What does this mean to ordinary people like us? It means that propane is cold enough freeze your skin (and tissue underneath) to the point of severe damage.

Specific Gravity of Propane Gas - One cubic foot of propane weighs .1162 lbs. and one cubic foot of air weighs .07655. Dividing .1162 by .07655 equals 1.52. What does this mean? Propane is heavier than air and will seek the lowest space available.

Specific Gravity of Liquid Propane - One gallon of propane weighs 4.24 lbs. One gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs. Dividing 4.24 by 8.33 equals .51. This means propane is less dense than water (lighter than water) and will not sink in water, so to speak.

BTU - As defined, a British Thermal Unit is the quantity of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. It takes about 143 BTU, or .0016 gallons of propane, to melt one pound of ice (at 32°F). Most all installation requirements and decisions revolve around BTU ratings and demand.

[Hawg]

Jeez you guys, dump warm water on it, you'll be fine.

[MNfan]

Jeez you g uys, dump warm water on it, you'll be fine.

They don't have any gas pressure to heat the water that's the root of the problem!!!!

[Hawg]

Sorry, but I've never seen it be lack of tank pressure, this seems to be a 2013-2014 talking point. Try the water, My bet is that 75% or more will be fine. Crazy things happen at -30 but people here are having trouble all the time. I've been wrong before but look how many are covering their regulators to keep moisture from getting in and it works. If you pull an exposed regulator to a lake with the crud we have on the roads or if your heater exhaust hits your regulator you can probably be assured your regulator is plugged with ice. Pretty easy to try. There are an awful lot of newbies with big houses on here this year.

[broman]

If you have money to burn you could get a Powerblanket Gas Cylinder Warmer.

[CANOPY SAM]

I'm having "the problem" inside my garage, with a tank and regulator that aren't exposed to any ice and snow. Just running a contractors space heater once in a while to do chores and projects in the garage. 20 lb. cylinder and regulator freeze up quickly. Same with the grill outside.

For you Einstein's who know what my issue is, and offer such a simple answer, I've explained this three times now. I'm not talking about a fish house tank or regulator.

Lastly, I'm not sure pouring water on a freezing cold regulator is a very good idea. There is a venting hole on these regulators, and if you plug them with water, and subsequently ice, you're creating a potentially bigger problem then you have with a slowly internally freezing regulator.

Gordie, I appreciate the technical explanation. I'm a chemist, so everything you posted makes complete sense to me. Unfortunately, it still doesn't answer my question.

Why would running propane out of a 20 lb. tank thru a standard regulator freeze up more quickly the faster a wide open tank is running? I'd venture a guess it's no less then -15 degrees F. in the garage while I'm running this heater (prior to warming it up), so why would this be freezing up so quickly? The initial ambient temp is well above the boiling point you mentioned.