DNR seeks input on antler point restrictions

[james_walleye]

So your grand total of expirience hunting zone 3 before APRs were implementes? CLEARLY enough time afield to make an educated assessment. I'm guessing your total time afield is about 3-4 days a season with a shotgun.....again CLEARLY enough time to make an educated assessment. How about you just cut to the Chase and tell us you don't want to be told what you can harvest and the rest of it is window dressing? Forget that most of the herd by far is legal to harvest, and that beyond year 1 of APRs the number of legal bucks out there to harvest is generally the same as before APRs.......

[Musky Buck]

Hey lakevet go to page 74 of the deer pictures and read what fishtrapgirl wrote about Wisconsin opening day. Post rut hunt like wisconsin ?

[Musky Buck]

HSO deer pics page 44 sorry.

[picksbigwagon]

Must be March as we go round and round again on this topic.

Over the last 4 years of arguing and locked threads, I have come to the conclusion of a couple things:

Have APR resulted in bigger bucks in SE MN-yes it has

Has APR improved the overall health of the herd?-still no answer on that since we have had some very mild winters and the DNR doesn't define Health of the Herd, so there is no data to stand behind

APR will help the all important age structure of the herd- once again, the DNR has NO DATA on age structure of herds, High Fence and Big ranches in TEXAS actually hire people to age structure "their" herd, MN DNR doesn't do that, there is no way they can, so I am not sure why this still used as an excuse, there is no data to support it in MN, nor do I think it would be the best use of our funding either.

Look at IOWA: Okay, I used to hunt Houston County, 349, big buck country, I am originally from NE IA, Allamakee County, Big BUCK MECCA, I now hunt dubuque county in Iowa (for personal reasons) Iowa allows party hunting, Iowa allows cross tagging, Iowa nails out of state hunters (wish minnesota would)Iowa has No APR, QDM or any other "plans" that have been suggested here over and over, up until 4 years ago, you were asked to mail in your deer registration it wasn't required, Iowa has their gun seasons in December after the Rut.

Iowa is not a valid arguement because: Their gun season is well after the rut AND they don't have number of hunters that we do in MN. Population density in Iowa is LOW, especially in the BIG BUCK COUNTIES. SE MN population density (houston county for example) is bigger than Allamakee county and Clayton counties. Population density and hunter numbers is the biggest reason Iowa has better deer herd health than MN.

4 years ago, I was against APR, I felt it was better to have individual hunters make the decision and to educate others on it. Now I see what is happening down there and since everyone seems to want that huge buck, it sure seems to be working. They aren't lacking deer since I was driving down there a couple weeks ago, dodging deer on 52 pulling a trailer. APR won't work in other parts of MN, SE MN is it's own entity and it should be "managed" as such. This won't spread to other parts of the state, SW MN has to do deer drives and party hunts, because of the open-ness of it.

[skee0025]

HSO deer pics page 44 sorry.

what page? She has no posts on page 44.

[TruthWalleyes]

So your grand total of expirience hunting zone 3 before APRs were implementes? CLEARLY enough time afield to make an educated assessment. I'm guessing your total time afield is about 3-4 days a season with a shotgun.....again CLEARLY enough time to make an educated assessment. How about you just cut to the Chase and tell us you don't want to be told what you can harvest and the rest of it is window dressing? Forget that most of the herd by far is legal to harvest, and that beyond year 1 of APRs the number of legal bucks out there to harvest is generally the same as before APRs.......

Hahaha...Wrong again. Nice try though.

20 days of deer hunting is about average for me. Shotgun, Muzzloader, and also some Bow hunting this last year. I also have access to a lot of land down there.

Within the first 5 minutes of shotgun season last year i could have shot an 8pt and a doe...Not big enough. Let him and her walk. But, i don't need regulations keeping the neighbors from shooting that deer. They can harvest whatever they want.

[tfran123]

Well for your one story of not seeing a difference I'll give you a dozen where people are seeing a noticable change, that's a fact. I'd argue that even if it was better for you now you might not admit it as you seem opposed to having another law (and honestly I hear you on that to some degree).

My experience is the opposite and I have trail camera pictures for the last 5 years on our hunted properties that would tell a completely different story - it's not even funny how much APR has changed the age structure of bucks. Now if having more mature bucks isn't your cup of tea than so be it. It's not horn porn in my world, I'll gladly whack a inferior racked old bruiser because my end goal is harvesting a mature animal and that's the biggest challenge to me.

[TruthWalleyes]

Even if there was an increase in horn size i still don't know that i would support it.

[Musky Buck]

Sorry skee 74 on the deer bear etc. page.

[james_walleye]

I see you didn't argue the fact that you had virtually no expierience hunting zone 3 before APRs.....? I'll stick with my observations. 21 years hunting zone 3 and running real cans from July to March.....yes there is CLEARLY a difference.

[TruthWalleyes]

Growing up deer hunting in SW MN, i cannot think of 1 time where my dad had made any comment about antlers. Even to this day, antlers was never part of deer hunting for our family. I know this is why i have my stance on APR. I wasn't raised to chase antlers, rather to enjoy DEER hunting.

I also have spent enough time in Z3 to know that is a completely different region with a totally different attitude towards deer racks. Everybody LOVES deer racks in Z3. You don't see that mentality in other areas of the state as much as you do in Z3.

I would rather see this "Rack Enhancement" mentality spread by education and not through regulation. I'm more than willing to take 10 years of education on buck selective harvest than to push a regulation through that will do it in 1 year.

[skee0025]

Sorry skee 74 on the deer bear etc. page.

Thanks, I'm interested to see what she had to say.

[tfran123]

Then your Father was more interested in meat period. I know tons of friends/family who hunt deer, EVERY single one of them makes references to antlers (unlike your Dad). Could be as simple as "I was sitting there and this massive buck with big knarly antlers game by chasing a doe . . .". Who doesn't get excited about seeing a big buck, apparently just your Dad?

Don't get me wrong - hunting is WAY more than antlers and to our camp it's about family, fun, stories, etc.(hunting is actually secondary in some respects). But in the end stories never start out with "remember in 1979 when I shot that spike buck . . ." If someone never mentioned antlers I'd really wonder if they enjoyed the sport or were they just interested in taking game. Nothing wrong with the later but that's rare these days.

[Jameson]

...Population density and hunter numbers is the biggest reason Iowa has better deer herd health than MN....

Thank-you for the observation.

So to the folks that want to be like Iowa (not picking on picksbigwagon here) the best way to simulate what they have is a buck tag lottery.

[TruthWalleyes]

Then your Father was more interested in meat period.

Correct. It's never been about anters for us. We enjoy the meat and the time afield. He never got a deer this year. I gave him a tenderloin and backstrap as well as a roast. Got a txt from him two weeks ago when he finally pulled that deer out of the freezer..."I just had a spectacular meal thanks to you, venison tenderloin, mushrooms. Thanks, Love dad"

My favorite three and most memorable deer have all been does.

1st year hunting doe shot with a shotgun.

1st year bow hunting shot doe.

1st year muzzleloader hunting, shot doe.

Do big bucks make me excited - sure, they don't come around too often. I haven't pulled the trigger on a huge buck yet, and i'm not interested in these regulations to increase the odds.

Guess i'm different than most. But, if that is the case, then why do we need these regulations if everybody already only shoots big bucks.........

We had someone in Z3 pull off the side of the road and pull the trigger on a massive buck while we were hunting the same property this last fall. My buddy i hunt with (Native Z3) was red faced MAD...I looked at him and said - don't really care - i don't hunt for horns, but it was not ethical nor safe. Big deer shot on YOUR LAND - most people are Living Mad. Me, i could care less.

Good luck with your state wide APR's. Hope it allows each of you a massive deer each year. Seems you none of you are happy without it...Kind of sad really.

[Musky Buck]

Did a little Iowa FYI ing and in 2011 they sold less than 400,000 fishing, hunting and furbearer licenses combined, interesting.

[tfran123]

Appreciate the cival discussion, believe it or not you and I are more alike than not. My most memorable deer (2 of the 3) we're when I was young and took my first animal with either a bow or gun and neither had horns.

The fact is I feel like my priorities have changed (not that yours need to) but really in all honesty I like to try and match up with a large buck and kill it. Most of the time I fail but it's a challenge I enjoy. It's easy for me to take a small buck and when I need the meat (and I do enjoy it!) I shoot a doe. The problem is in many areas the orange army crushes the young bucks and most hunters in those areas stand very little chance of seeing a mature deer. I want a more balanced approach, period. It's not that I have horn porn, etc., it's really that simple.

[Gordie]

Did a little Iowa FYI ing and in 2011 they sold less than 400,000 fishing, hunting and furbearer licenses combined, interesting.

Were all off those resident or what portion were nonresident now that might be what would make it intresting.

[nonteepical]

Iowa already has a balanced age structure in their deer herd, so there is no reason for APR's. Hunters in Iowa voluntarily pass yearlings and in the best parts of the state alot of them pass 3 year olds, because they observe in the field what their deer herd is made up of so getting selective occurs naturally. In minnesota our age structure isn't much beyond 3 years old a 4.5 year old would be a geezer, APR's are only a tool to try to recrute older bucks into the herd. After 10 years or so there will be stable age structure and the APR rule will be mute, MDHA hunters will not have to learn to count to 4 anymore at forkhorn camp. the vast majority won't even give a yearling a second look they'll just enjoy watching him walk by knowing there is a better one (body weight & antler size) out there, a nicer buck may or may not come by but the hunt will still be deemed successful even if your buck tag is not filled, becoming selective will naturally occur like it has in Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois.

[nonteepical]

some horn porn for Truth so he can have a private moment to himself.

[TruthWalleyes]

Lol, i would bet many people have gazed and stared at those deer head pictures. I just scroll past them. Does nothing for me.

Show me a picture of a guy/gal standing next to any deer grinning with happiness and I'll say nice deer-congrats...but no drooling over a deer antler on the wall for this guy.

[Scott M]

I'll try to put on my rain jacket so I don't get wet in this whizzing match, but I just have to say I am in agreement with picksbigwagon...SE MN is a different kind of country...it's the one part of the state where there is the kind of habitat to have good growth and large bucks in terms of antlers. This four year experimentation has made a change to the age structure that has been beneficial. Yes, the deer are not aged by the DNR, but its only common sense to understand that needing 4 points on a side will push the mean age of males up. That shift has meant more big bucks to the commoner. If you feel that adding this regulation has taken away the challenge of getting a big buck, there's still plenty of places where you'll face long odds to see some nice headgear. Heck, if you have a nice spot in SE Minnesota and want a challenge, have I got a trip swap for you! Come up to my deer camp and you'll see forks and spikes to your hearts content!

For those that want to fill the freezer, they can shoot does or put in the time and still get their buck in Zone 3. For those after antlers, they stand a better chance to get a big buck. You have to look at the management of deer as trying to keep everyone happy and offering some diversity...we are pretty lucky to have a section of the state that has this sort of potential.

p.s. I'll be making my first deer hunting trip to Zone 3 during archery season in late October. Am I guaranteed a big buck? Nope. But it's nice to know that from a biological standpoint, my best odds are down that way.

[nonteepical]

and good for you, but I'll bet your computer keys get sticky when you look at your avatar. point is the MAJORITY of zone 3 want bigger bucks wether you care or not and i guarantee if the whole state was asked the same question the majority would rather shoot a big buck than a little buck.

[PurpleFloyd]

Iowa already has a balanced age structure in their deer herd, so there is no reason for APR's. Hunters in Iowa voluntarily pass yearlings and in the best parts of the state alot of them pass 3 year olds, because they observe in the field what their deer herd is made up of so getting selective occurs naturally. In minnesota our age structure isn't much beyond 3 years old a 4.5 year old would be a geezer, APR's are only a tool to try to recrute older bucks into the herd. After 10 years or so there will be stable age structure and the APR rule will be mute, MDHA hunters will not have to learn to count to 4 anymore at forkhorn camp. the vast majority won't even give a yearling a second look they'll just enjoy watching him walk by knowing there is a better one (body weight & antler size) out there, a nicer buck may or may not come by but the hunt will still be deemed successful even if your buck tag is not filled, becoming selective will naturally occur like it has in Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois.

You want bigger bucks around, just pay the farmers to leave 80 acres per section of corn standing until after the gun season and problem solved without government mandates. Or would that upset you because it may limit you from shooting those big bucks?

[PurpleFloyd]

Correct. It's never been about anters for us. We enjoy the meat and the time afield. He never got a deer this year. I gave him a tenderloin and backstrap as well as a roast. Got a txt from him two weeks ago when he finally pulled that deer out of the freezer..."I just had a spectacular meal thanks to you, venison tenderloin, mushrooms. Thanks, Love dad"

My favorite three and most memorable deer have all been does.

1st year hunting doe shot with a shotgun.

1st year bow hunting shot doe.

1st year muzzleloader hunting, shot doe.

Do big bucks make me excited - sure, they don't come around too often. I haven't pulled the trigger on a huge buck yet, and i'm not interested in these regulations to increase the odds.

Guess i'm different than most. But, if that is the case, then why do we need these regulations if everybody already only shoots big bucks.........

We had someone in Z3 pull off the side of the road and pull the trigger on a massive buck while we were hunting the same property this last fall. My buddy i hunt with (Native Z3) was red faced MAD...I looked at him and said - don't really care - i don't hunt for horns, but it was not ethical nor safe. Big deer shot on YOUR LAND - most people are Living Mad. Me, i could care less.

Good luck with your state wide APR's. Hope it allows each of you a massive deer each year. Seems you none of you are happy without it...Kind of sad really.

Couldn't have said it better myself.