Electrical Question

[nofishfisherman]

I am in the middle of my basement remodel and I am adding in some recessed can lights. The bulk of the lights are replacing existing lights that had all been wired in using new romex so install was easy and straight forward.

My question comes in on the last two lights that I want to add in a little office space. There was one existing light in this space that used romex to connect to an old outlet that is being supplied by the old 2 wire (red and black) system that runs through conduit and up to a switch and then up into the ceiling where it appears to branch out in various conduit junction boxes before going back to the panel.

I am wondering if its acceptable to run new romex from this old 2 wire outlet and up to 2 new recessed lights. Of do i need to replace all of the old wires with new romex all the way back to the panel?

[Whoaru99]

I think that's OK.

Usually the problem is running older wire into a lighting fixture that has a higher temperature rating than the older wires carried. In those cases you have to replace the old wire or use a junction box some distance from the fixture to splice in a hunk of newer cable with higher temp rating to connect to the fixture.

[Tom7227]

I may be a bit off on this but it seems to me that the question can't be answered with the information given.

What all is fed by the circuit you are taping in to? What is the rating on the breaker of that circuit. What size wires are in the line that you are working with?

Granted a couple of lights might not be a big deal, but if it already overloaded it could be making things worse.

Then I would give some thought to checking out the outlets in the space. Again the same question. If you are going to put any electronics in there I think you may want to be sure that there isn't too much on that circuit. My example is my garage. When the compressor kicks in the lights dim for a second. No big deal as I see it but I don't know what it would do to a computer that was on that line.

I'm sure some more knowledgeable folks will help you out.

[Whoaru99]

I approached it as more of a general question, considering the OP seems to have some understanding of wiring and was looking for any specific code issues that would expressly prohibit the concept of extending the circuit.

[nofishfisherman]

considering the OP seems to have some understanding of wiring

You may assume to much. I thought it was ok to add new wire to the old outlet as it is already done that way in this spot but I'm a novice at best so wanted to confirm.

I've tried tracing to see whats all powered by that circuit. I know that originally there were 3 outlets and 1 light for sure in the basement. I tried tracing the conduit back toward the panel to see where else it might go and what else it might be powering. It came to a juntion box that split off and with the duct work in the way it made tracing all the offshoots from the junction difficult. With the circuit off I checked around the house for anything else that was unpowered and couldn't find anything.

What I'd like to do is replace the one existing light and then add one additional light on the end and then keep the 3 existing outlets.

Those two lights and 1 outlet would be controlled by a switch. The other two outlets have wire running to the box with the switch but did not appear to be controlled by the switch. Those 2 outlets will be used to power my desktop computer and other office stuff.

I rarely used the outlets on this circuit in the past and may have never even used the light since it was an accent wall light. So I don't have a good sense if this circuit is overdrawn to start with.

Hopefully this additional info helps.

[nofishfisherman]

Here is a quick diagram of what the situation looks like. From the junction box in the upper left I'm not entirely sure where the other off shoots go.

As noted the only new item on the circuit will be the one can light on the far right. The other light is replacing an existing light.

[nofishfisherman]

A little more info. I spent some time tonight figuring out what else is on that circuit. Here is what I is included.

Garbage disposal

3 lights (laundry room, over sink, basement light)

4 outlets (the 3 in the diagram and 1 on another wall)

I want to add 1 additional light to this circuit using romex leading from the outlet.

The outlets in the circuit would likely be used to power my LED tv and my desktop computer.

Think its doable? I really have no idea if thats too much stuff on one circuit, it certainly seems like a lot.

[JohnMickish]

Are you asking if it's legal or if its advisable?

[Surface Tension]

Assuming the conduit(EMT)is used for ground. Check the path of the conduit and be sure it isn't open anywhere.

You didn't mention what size wire and breaker.

You mentioned laundry room. Washer should be on its own circuit.

Can put the disposal on its own circuit and if so then I don't see a problem with what your doing.

What about the rest of the basement/remodel? If you don't have any other receptacles you'll need to add them and that means more circuits.

[Whoaru99]

You may assume to much.

Then maybe you shouldn't be doing any of it.

From a load aspect I doubt there's any issue. The disposal is quite intermittent but personally I wouldn't want my TV and computer on the same circuit as something like that.

Garbage disposal 1/2 hp, ~375 watts running.

3 lights, say 100W each, ~300 watts.

675W / 120V = That's about 5.5A, with everything turned on. The circuit is at least 15A, maybe 20A.

General purpose outlets don't count in the load calculation, AFAIK, in residential.

However, factor the LED TV (~150W) and a modest computer (say 300W including monitor), and another light (say 100W) now you have a total of ~1225 watts, assuming everything turned on at once, is ~10A on a 15A or 20A circuit.

To me, the only real question remaining is where does that other branch go? Have you looked in the junction box to see if you can tell if it's even part of the circuit in question?

[nofishfisherman]

I did look in the junction box and it appears that the last branch is not part of the circuit. I'm fairly confident that what I listed is all that is on the circuit.

The electrical in the project has been very straight forward until this point. Basically I was just replacing old light fixtures with new light fixtures, so nothing I haven't done many times before. This circuit in question is just a little odd since its a mix of old and new.

[SkunkedAgain]

Assuming the conduit(EMT)is used for ground. Check the path of the conduit and be sure it isn't open anywhere.

I think that the load aspect has been handled pretty well. I'd agree that you should be slightly concerned about running the garbage disposal while the TV or computer are running with all of the lights. It might cause enough of a dip in power to hurt the computer or tv.

Otherwise, your main question seems to be about using the old metal conduit. As ST stated, that metal conduit should be grounded from both the metal switch & outlet boxes back to the junction box and also the panel. Assuming that is all properly grounded and that the newer romex running from the conduit-supplied outlet box to the outlets & lights has the green neutral wire properly grounded to the switch box, you should be good to go. There shouldn't be any harm in adding an extra light. If there are a load concerns you could always use either lower watt light bulbs or CFL bulbs to cut down on the electrical loads coming from lights.

[nofishfisherman]

I'll double check to confirm things are grounded properly. I believe they are.

I'll also look to see about getting the disposal on its own circuit. I may also be able to get the outlet where the tv is going on to a different circuit without much else on it.

[Ice Wolf]

In residential your general lights and receptacle loads are determined by the square footage of your house not by how many lights you will put in a room. If you want to count the existing lights and receptacles go with 180 volt amp per each. So for a rough estaminet on how many openings you can put on a 20 amp circuit would be 13. And for a 15 amp circuit would be 10 openings. This just gives you a rough idea about that general load. I would remove the garbage disposal from that circuit. Now that you have extended the branch circuit in your basement, by code you need to protect that circuit with an arc fault breaker and any receptacles that you have messed with shall be the tamper resistant type. And if that circuit is not grounded it must be G.F.C.I protected also.

[SkunkedAgain]

My inspector made me do tamper resistant outlets and arc fault breakers as well. It's a nice comfort to have those things, but certainly take a load of cash out of the wallet!

My only advice about the tamper resistant outlets is to do some research on quality receptacles. 75% of mine work just fine but some are a GIANT pain to insert plugs. I bought all of mine at Menards or Home Depot. Maybe they sell higher quality tamper resistant outlets but you might be best ordering them online. IDK

[nofishfisherman]

I looked over the wiring last night and I think I may opt to not extend that circuit by including another light. After replacing the other 4 lights in the basement there seems to be more than sufficient light so the extra light I was thinking about seems like over kill.

Since I'm not longer thinking off extending that circuit with a new light would I still need arc fault breakers?

The outlets I put in are the tamper resistant. I picked them up at Mendards and so far I haven't had much issue with being able to insert plugs.

I think my new plan is to get the garbage disposal off of the circuit in question. I plan to add a circuit to the panel (there is plenty of room on the panel) which will go to the garbage disposal and an additional outlet in the laundry room to run a stand up freezer.

[JohnMickish]

You will have to use the arc fault breakers on NEW circuits.

[nofishfisherman]

Gotcha.

Thanks for everyones assistance on this.

[SkunkedAgain]

It's worth clarifying that different municipalities have different rules. In mine, the electrical inspector stated that if I did anything to a circuit beyond replacing a fixture or outlet, I needed to install an arc fault breaker. So it didn't need to be a new circuit. Just modifying an old circuit by swapping out wire or extending/shortening would trigger the need to upgrade the breaker at the box.

[nofishfisherman]

I looked at things closer over the weekend and I think I've come to the point where things have gotten too far over my head. Normally I'm in for a good challenge but I'm going to have a lot of high dollar items plugged into this circuit so I think I'm going to bring in some professional help to make sure its done right the first time.

[Surface Tension]

Aaron you won't regret doing that.

[nofishfisherman]

Yeah I don't think I'll regret it either. Once I went back and looked and realized there isn't any open space to put a new circuit (I originally thought there was) then I figured its worth making a call to have someone figure it out for me.

I'm hoping its not too big of a job to get it figured out.

[nofishfisherman]

Had an electrician come out and look everything over last weekend. He pretty much said the same as everyone here. The plan is to get the garbage disposal on to its own circuit and also put the TV and Computer on their own circuit. Some of the stuff is grounded and some of its not so he'll also get that all taken care of plus add a new outlet for my basement freezer onto a circuit that can handle it. He'll also move and rewire a poorly placed light switch. All pretty easy stuff for an electrican but its just slightly above my comfort level.

Currently my panel is completely full so he can't just plug in a new circuit but he suspects based on the number of breakers and size of my house that some of them aren't being used any more so he'll be able to rework the panel and clean it up a little and use existing breakers for the new circuits.

I have no idea what a fair price for all of this would be but the guy is a friend of a friend and quoted me a "friends/family" rate of $300 that seems fair to me.

[amateurfishing]

that sounds like a really good price

for your own self confidence & knowledge it may not hurt for you to go to local hardware store and get an outlet "tester" for $5 so that you can test when he is done and at least know all the outlets are wired properly. i do hire out occasional jobs as well but i also make sure everything is in proper working order b4 last check is handed over & they walk out the door.

[upnorth]

$300 sounds very reasonable.