Tendonitis

[TR21HP]

Canopy Sam will enjoy this one. Late eighties and I'm trying to keep up with several non natural bodybuilders and my elbows are killing me. I ask one of them what he suggests for treatment besides rest. He takes out a bottle of some brown liquid and applies it to my elbow. Literally in seconds I'm tasting sulfur, this can't be good. I ask him what it is and he replies, "It's furniture stripper!" I'm flabbergasted and he asks how my elbow feels, I reply theres no pain anymore he replies let's lift. Better living through the use of recreational pharms. Unbelievable.

[nofishfisherman]

I've always been an advocate for the whiskey/dirt method. Just pour some whiskey on the injury and then rub a handful of dirt into it, works every time. Oh wait I forgot the last step, once you've rub the dirt on it drink the rest of the whiskey. The pain will just fade away.

[CANOPY SAM]

I just laughed out loud.

....primarily because I'm so intimately familiar with this last prescription!

I only wish Grandpa's old Lumbego medicine was a permanent solution.

[JigginGopher]

Some good discussion on the topic here. A couple things I will add to the mix is prolotherapy and eccentric strengthening exercises. Often times the tendonopathy is below the threshold for your body to really recognize and "mobilize the troops" so to speak to activate a healing response. One of the purposes of Graston (which was mentioned previously) is to re-irritate the tissue causing the body to restart its inflammatory response thus healing the injury. Graston can sometimes be uncomfortable and you would need to see the therapist frequently for a period of time for this to be successful. Prolotherapy accomplishes this same goal more efficiently and with less visits. A physician would either elect to use a saline solution or your own blood to inject into the painful area. This "tricks" your body into sending a healing response to the newly "inflammed" area. I have seen this work quite well with many patients. Secondly, many research studies conclude it is necessary to perform eccentric exercises to strengthen the tendon and keep the tendonopathy from returning. If you google "eccentric exercises for tennis elbow" you will find plenty of examples. In this I'm assuming it is the outside of your elbow that hurts since thats is where i'll occasionally get sore as well after a couple days of pitching jigs. If not, modify the search accordingly. Good luck!

[CANOPY SAM]

JigginGopher. I'd forgotten about platelet injection therapy as well. Perhaps somewhat similar to the procedures you mentioned above?

I'd heard that some have had marvelous results with platelet injection therapy, but when I looked into it, it had yet to be approved by the FDA or AMA or someone like that, and hence it was not covered by standard health insurance policies.

My orthopod was however more than happy to inject each elbow to the tune of $2600 per injection! I decided I'd try something else.

I'm always really concerned about re-aggravating the tendonitis in my elbows. Some of the procedures mentioned just sound so contrary to common medical treatment, but as Dr.Juice told me, I should really be more open minded. I just don't like pain very much. Pain hurts.

[DrJuice1980]

Eccentric contractions get the muscles long and strong, back doing what they need to to absorb the force instead of being stuck in homeostasis and transferring the brunt of the force into your tendon instead of letting the tendon stabilize and transfer force to the muscles. The trick is getting your muscles to "remember" to stay out of homeostasis. And that doesn't happen because pain is still present, thus your muscles begin to protect and become short, working inefficiently. Then your tendinitis returns.

[DrJuice1980]

Prolotherapy is mind boggling.. Create scar tissue to heal damage? I don't get it and I've read all about it. Seems like treating symptoms instead of what's causing them will get you no where.

[delcecchi]

50 cents says dr juice is a chiropractor of the "everything is caused by misalignment of the spine and subluxations" school.

[CANOPY SAM]

Homeostasis means "perfect balance". We use the term in hematology, and anti-coagulation therapy quite often with good connotations.

Homeostasis is a desirable condition in overall health. At least I thought it was??? What you are now saying is we don't want homeostasis? We don't want good muscle balance?

Not arguing. Just trying to understand.

I do agree with your description of the muscles spasming, contracting (shortening) and adding additional tension on the tendons. I've felt it, for years. It's hard to get them to stop doing this.

[CANOPY SAM]

Wasn't there an attractant manufactured many years ago for spraying on fishing lures labeled Dr.Juice? Is this just a coincidence?

[JigginGopher]

In-depth physiology aside, Prolotherapy works because is makes a slow healing chronic injury appear to the body as an acute injury which elicits a quicker healing response. With the sports medicine physicians I work with, this is a common medical procedure used with success quite frequently.

DrJuice - Any good treatment protocol addresses the injury and symptoms. While i agree there may be an underlying cause up the kinetic chain, you must first fix the broken link and reinforce it through strengthening. If the patient then decides they want to investigate other "causes" while pain free, 100% functional, and reduced risk of reinjury, that is up to them.

[DrJuice1980]

You are correct, DrJuice was a scent spray and it was awesome, I cant find it anywhere. Homeostasis can refer to many things in the body. I am referring to the state of homeostasis where the skeletal muscles are not eccentricly contracting (lengthening) to their maximum capacity during movement to absorb the force of that movement.

[delcecchi]

You are correct, DrJuice was a scent spray and it was awesome, I cant find it anywhere. Homeostasis can refer to many things in the body. I am referring to the state of homeostasis where the skeletal muscles are not eccentricly contracting (lengthening) to their maximum capacity during movement to absorb the force of that movement.

So, what is your professional background? The above sounds like the gibberish one gets from the more whacko chiropractors.

[DrJuice1980]

Whacko, nice one. I bet all these people talking about their pain have done their due diligence trying to find a fix. Their Dr's protocol has done nothing long term, meds havent done much but dull pain and injections have done very little as well. Think about this: back in the day when you had pain you went to your Dr. that Dr. would spend time viewing your posture, watched the way you walked, examined your compensation patterns and prescribed isometric exercises focusing on eccentric muscle contractions. Attempting to have your body eliminate what is causing pain and getting your muscles back doing the job they are suppose to, absorbing force rather than transferring that force to an area that can not. Nowadays you visit your Dr for knee pain and you are referred to an orthopedic specialist who orders imaging (no surprise what that will show, soft tissue damage) gives you a prescription for pain pills that numb pain and kill your liver, give you cortisone which wears off as damage continues, possibly synvisc which is going to break down because the reason your cartilage did is still present, or prescrib PT which you are limited to for what your body will allow you to do and what your insurance will pay. None of this has worked so you get a replacement that lasts 7-15 years (which is considered a success) depending on your activity and that's if you can ever be active again. All of this has happened while you've spent less than an hour in front of that specialist. Seems like he was just looking to get paid. Who's the whack job now? The guy who is opened minded or the guy that ends up with a bad liver who can't spend time in his deer stand because they cant climb it or sit on a bucket ice fishing because the position causes extreme pain when getting up and has major pain while lifting that cheek to wipe your butt all because of limitations from surgery? Have fun dealing with your pain. Keep asking yourself why you are in pain when all you are doing is treating your symptoms. Yeah let's treat those not what's causing them. Get a clue. I can't make you understand so I'm going back to working on my flux capacitor and studying the space-time continuum.

[delcecchi]

Nice rant. You still didn't answer my question. But the "whacko chiropractic" seems to have touched a nerve, so to speak.

Wikipedia has an interesting article....

Quote:

Chiropractic was founded in 1895 in Davenport, United States, by magnetic healer D.D. Palmer. Chiropractic theory on spinal joint dysfunction/subluxation and its putative role in non-musculoskeletal disease has been a source of controversy since its inception in 1895 due its vitalistic and metaphysical origins which used terminology that was not amenable to scientific investigation. Far reaching claims and lack of scientific evidence supporting spinal joint dysfunction/subluxation as the sole cause of disease has led to a critical evaluation of a central tenet of chiropractic and the appropriateness of the profession's role in treating a broad spectrum disorders that are not related to the neuromusculoskeletal system.[5] Although there is external and internal debate within the chiropractic profession regarding the clinical significance of joint dysfunction/subluxation[6] the manipulable lesion remains inextricably linked to the profession as basis for spinal manipulation.[7].....

Straight chiropractors adhere to the philosophical principles set forth by D.D. and B.J. Palmer, and retain metaphysical definitions and vitalistic qualities. Straight chiropractors believe that vertebral subluxation leads to interference with an "innate intelligence" exerted via the human nervous system and is a primary underlying risk factor for many diseases. Straights view the medical diagnosis of patient complaints (which they consider to be the "secondary effects" of subluxations) to be unnecessary for chiropractic treatment. Thus, straight chiropractors are concerned primarily with the detection and correction of vertebral subluxation via adjustment and do not "mix" other types of therapies into their practice style

So adjusting the spine will put an ACL back together or restore the cartilage to a knee? Or maybe stop cancer? You straight or a mixer?

[DrJuice1980]

Nothing will restore cartilage, study's show that stem cell both did and did not so the debate is on so I am going with the did not until further proof. Your ACL remark is laughable because it may prevent that type of injury. Copy and paste, good one way to fill a post with wiki. The average guys a dumba** and you fit the mold.

[CANOPY SAM]

No need to get prickly here boys. I think this is very interesting stuff, and Dr.Juice is right about much of what he says above. I'm not to that point where it hurts to lift a cheek, but everything else hurts, so I'd imagine it's only a matter of time.

I also know, after many years working at the heart of healthcare, and in the business of developing new service lines and revenue centers, that anyone that tells you healthcare is all about providing the highest quality care to patients is not telling you the whole truth. Healthcare is a money machine, and patients are the conduit to full bank accounts. Sorry, but it's true.

That being said, let's not discount possible solutions to long term pain = tendonitis. Dr.Juice, without giving away the farm, perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on how exactly your system works?

[DrJuice1980]

It will find where muscles are failing to do the job they are made for, re-train your body neurologically to get them to respond to movements and absorb force-long term if consistant with therapy and post therapy strength programs (many fail to help themselves out), increase blood flow to help damaged soft tissue recover, increase range of motion, and much more depending on ones needs. All by using a propietary wave pattern, high pulse rate, and instructed active movements to break compensation. Your biggest enemy when it comes to pain and mobility issues is compensation, your body can become a compensation machine and you will see other areas become affected due to over-compensation. There is a common misconception about strength, you can be strong as an ox and still have limitations or pain, it is not a lack of strength rather it is an inefficiency issue. COntinuing to focus on building strength will continue to create stress on areas that can not handle it, that is why PT often fails-your body is not ready for it (ask any PT and they will most likely agree). Muscles made to do one thing fail to a certain extent and something else needs to pick up the load. Such is the case with tendinitis, your tendon is doing something that it is not made for. Stress on that tendon causes this. Muscles have failed to do there job to protect that tendon. Why not focus on the end instead of the beginning? Why treat the tendon when it is the muscles that are failing?

[CANOPY SAM]

You say, "by using a proprietary wave pattern, high pulse rate". Is this done with a "stim" device? I don't know what they are officially called, but my chiro uses something like this before she adjusts my neck.

I really like that thing. It does help me relax, and makes it much easier for her little hands to realign my neck...as I am a bit of a muscle bound lummox.

I understand what you're saying Juice. It makes sense. It seemed strange to me that I was so strong, and in such good shape, and never had tendonitis until a few years ago. Then out of the blue I get it really bad in both elbows, and now, no matter what I do, I seem to re-aggravate it. I'm sure you are right in that this is a byproduct of compensation by other muscle groups, connective tissues, etc., to avoid further injury, all the while causing further injury. Is that correct?

I guess the bigger question in all of this is, are you the only medical provider in Minnesota offering this therapy, or are there numerous other folks familiar with this type of work? I'd be interested to pursue anything that will permanently resolve my tendonitis, and ensure that it never returns. And lastly, if I were to pursue this course of treatment, is it covered by most common health insurance policies?

Driving to the Twin Cities from where I live for a 20 minute office visit isn't an option. But if there were someone in Fargo, Grand Forks, Bemidji, or even Thief River Falls?????

[fishersofmen]

I also know, after many years working at the heart of healthcare, and in the business of developing new service lines and revenue centers, that anyone that tells you healthcare is all about providing the highest quality care to patients is not telling you the whole truth. Healthcare is a money machine, and patients are the conduit to full bank accounts. Sorry, but it's true.

I agree. I find it amusing that people sincerely believe the medical field wants to find a cure for cancer etc....Can you imagine the devistating effect that one cure would have on not only the healthcare industry but on the economy overall? What would happen to all the mutli million dollar complexes that have been built around the world? What a joke.

Also agree with the negativity. We all have different opinions on matters no need for name calling folks. I am sure most of you will think I am nuts for believing the medical field doesn't truthfully want to cure diseases that bring them billions of dollars but thats my opinion.

[DrJuice1980]

It will be covered by your insurance however if you have medicare/medicade you will most likely be charged due to the discount collected by the Dr. I will check to see if we have anybody utilizing this in Fargo, I believe we do. I will PM you details. Making sure it never returns is going to take follow through, and attention to detail and to educate on compensation so you can make sure that why is was created in the beginning does not return.

This is a type of Stim that you have never felt. What you are hooked up to is a whisper, this is a hurricane.

[CANOPY SAM]

Well now, don't get too carried away. I genuinely believe the healthcare industry, and healthcare providers as a whole, would love to provide cures, remedies, and comprehensive solutions to all debilitating health conditions. I just know that they CAN'T do it for free, and whenever possible, they would prefer to do it while making lots of money.

But this really isn't any different than any other western culture business model. I just get a bad taste in my mouth when the whole dealio is veiled in the facade of providing the "best quality healthcare for our beloved patients". At the end of the day, someone has to get paid. The days of the old country doc who delivered babies at home for free are sadly, long gone.

I don't know, Juice. The electrical stimulation unit my chiro uses, with four separately placed leads, really has me hoppin' around the table! If that's just a "whisper" I'm not too sure I'm interested in the "hurricane". None-the-less, it's the same technology, only set at a "proprietary wavelength"?

[DrJuice1980]

No, not the same technology. You are receiving stim that provides a concertric contraction, AC stim, which is only providing short term relief from your bodys defense mode in an unnatural setting. Blood rushed to fight off what is not natural. Also at a pulse rate of I'd guess 130-140 per second. Not enought to clear up any compensation. Plus you are not moving while it is on, so what is it correcting? The only use is to get blood to those muscle to make them more plyable for the worker.

I am talking about eccentric contractions at a rate of 500 per second, doing movement while it is on, a movement directed and free of compensation to eliminate those patterns. DC which is what your body naturally produces. This is excepted by your body, and you are able to move with it on at the highest of volumes. It is not shocking you, its a different feeling that what you had, more intense but in a different way.

[DrJuice1980]

Sam, I was up at Cass this weekend, I wouldve brought mine up had I known. Carpal Tunnel from the baitcaster? Help that too

[CANOPY SAM]

Fascinating! I don't think the stim treatments are designed to provide short term relief for anything, at least in my application. I think it's simply a way to get the large muscle groups to relax facilitating an easier manipulation of the spine.

Sounds like your treatment offers the patient a serious BUZZ! I'm in!