Scopes for ML's

[DinnerPail]

My vote is NO

[lakevet]

I read the thread and see the same arguments as always but in my opinion the most accurate sentiments were the few that basically said:

A) "I want scopes to be legal because where I hunt I'm often faced with long shots/longer than I'm comfortable with because of __________".

&

"I don't want scopes to be legal because that will bring too many people out for the late season and I would just like to have some quiet time to hunt with a gun. So keep it more difficult".

Either point is valid but I'll wager the people who have some property locked down and don't have to compete with other hunter's access are more in camp A and people who hunt public property or rely on permission to hunt are in camp B.

I will also wager people who focus more on the getting are in A and people who focus more on the experience are in B.

Well said

[lakevet]

Muzzleloader season only accounts for about 7,000 deer in the harvest numbers, i doubt a scope is going to ruin the deer herd.

When approached by those who wanted to start a muzzleloading season for the experience and challenge, the DNR was against it for fear of over harvest. After several special hunts to test the idea, they concluded that if hunters had to pick a season, a muzzleloading season could be held without negatively impacting the deer herd. The season was opened statewide. One deer any sex even in low population areas. As technology improved while staying in the legal definition of muzzleloader, and the dropping of pick a season, we now have had areas of the state (SW MN) that allow shooting of does by kids with shotguns, but not with muzzleloaders due to concern of overharvest by muzzleloaders. Lou C.himself has said that if increased harvest occurs due to scopes, the reg won't be removed, but instead more restrictions will be placed on what you can harvest, fewer doe permits, or other season modifications.

In other words you can use increased technology, but we will use additional regulations to protect the herd from over harvest. This has happened in the fishing world and hunting world. In deer hunting, buck hunters are unaffected, actually will be better off due to ability to shoot longer distance and get that buck at 150-200 yds or more. Those that like to eat venison, and can't travel elsewhere readily, have to deal with less opportunity to shoot antlerless deer.

lakevet

[ASMOLEY]

Do you honestly think there a is a large population of hunters choosing not to hunt the ML season because they can't currently use scopes? LMAO! I doubt there would be any significant increase just if scopes became legal. The sport is growing in population regardless of the laws.

You forgot option C...

C) All of the above

[lakevet]

Hopefully you all will get older and still want to ML hunt. In low light and aging eyes, open sights aren't as accurate as a red dot or scope. This would help the older hunters.

We have had hunters into their 80's muzzleloading with open sights. Couple in there seventies at this point. Trifocals, etc,etc. never once did they ask for scope and actually preferred open sights. They grew up with open sights and have a lot of practice using them. Downright scary what they can do as they are very accurate. I myself am older and eyes are changing. Have one in our group who has a scope permit due to retinal damage, so we are NOT against scopes for those who have vision problem that a eye doc determines requires a scope.

Simple steps that always has been available:

1) Talk to your eye doc about it specifically. Highly recommend using one who hunts themselves. If you qualify for a scope permit due to truly poor vision that can't be corrected, use it.

2) Use a peep sight as the rear sight can be out of focus. Peep sights actually more accurate than other style open sights. Or try other styles of open sights to find one that works best for you.

3) Practice, practice, practice

Lastly..........get closer to the deer

lakevet

[harvey lee]

One thing about it, if this does not become law, probably will not, then I will simply go to the eye doc and get a permit to use a scope.

I will not give up hunting and I will not wound deer.

[Spike76]

Lakevet, thankyou for the response. I did mount a peep sight last year, should be ok until regs change or not.

[Musky Buck]

My uncle does use a recurve but isn't the distance the same with a compound ? He's good to maybe 35 yards, you compound guys are you firing further than that ? The deal is ML hunt has always been scopeless and like my dad he used to choose that season over rifle. So he sees it as just the new wave of wanting everything in todays deer hunt. We shouldn't be having this conversation in a way, this hunt $$$ shouldn't be an option for us really, so since it is I don't want scopes on those already successful rifle hunters, area 240 most ML hunters in the state and harvest of course at the top also so outside of 240 I'm ok with scopes but within 240 forget it, I'm fully aware of 3 guys that took nice bucks rifle hunting and "party hunted" lol what a crock but found a tag for that, do I want them to have another advantage, the advantage they have now is our tagging system which allows them the ML hunt, they already along with others in 240 had great rifle seasons, if I hunted outside of 240 I'd likely be way ok saying scopes are fine for "unsuccessful" hunters but that's not the case for quite a few guys in my area and I say forget giving them another advantage as they aren't really game hogs they're kinda buck hogs. I never really get their ML report although they tend to shoot buck or does then because it's such a new season to them they want to pile up some ML numbers, deer that shouldn't be harvested, but skirting the tagging system during rifle is to easy.

[ASMOLEY]

I don't hunt 240 so I don't know what is available for tags. If it's not a bonus area the three hunters that tagged bucks during the regular firearms season would be done. If they were party hunting it could be different story, cross tagging bucks is legal in MN. Maybe that is a law that should changed if you're concerned about the "buck hogs"?

Zones and permits control the harvest not a scoped ML...

[candiru]

That is why I use the term party tagging instead of party hunting.

[hockeybc69]

Musky,,,,

There was a whopping 108 deer registered in permit area 240 for muzzleloader season.... Hardly a drop in the bucket. For a grand total of .15 deer per square mile harvested with muzzy.

As far as the most muzzleloader hunters in the state in permit area 240, where do you come up with that statistic?

I agree cross tagging is an issue, but scopes on muzzleloaders isnt going to make area 240 go from 108 deer shot to some astronomical number..... Area 240 is 694 sq miles. I dont think your argument against scopes with those facts holds much water.

[Gordie]

When I was introduced to ml hunting it was before the advent of inlines and the number of muzzle load hunters were very small and I think it was not do to the fact that it was the weapon but the fact that it was a one or the other season option, and people could not entertain the fact that they could not hunt for deer with a rifle or a shotgun.

The other thing I remember about those days were that we acctaully had many inches of snow so the deer were more predictable, basically easier to hunt .

I started ML hunting because I liked to waterfowl hunt that late season and hardly no one but a few die hard water fowlers were hunting, and most thought I was nuts to let the firearms deer hunting pass me by.

My first years hunting were with a percussion cap rifle with iron sites and the way it was taught to me by the old timers was if you can hit a pie plate at a hundred yards your good to go. The first couple of deer that I took aim at my gun did not go off due to fouled primers or wet conditions. It was part of that stlye of hunting.

With the introduction of inline muzzle loaders it did change the way we look at hunting deer with a front loader.

They started out with percusion caps and conicals then it went on a pin point accuracy kick that hasnt stopped from 209 primers to electronic ignition to saboted bullets to smokeless powder in premeasured loads. You can even convert a shotgun frame into a muzzle loader or with a simple change of a barrel go from deer/ turkey gun to muzzy in about a minuet. Is that wrong ... No,but something in my opinion was lost and would most certainly guarantee that if it was like it was many years ago today with out the techongy most would not hunt this season at all.

The industry has made it a simplistic way to hunt these days so that more can enjoy this sport ,but do they really, fully understand about it, wear it came from but they know where it has gone.

[ASMOLEY]

I too have had a failed percussion cap, that's no fun at all. I bought an inline the next season. I hunt the ML season because it gives me more time in the woods and it gets too difficult to sling arrows when I'm all bundled up.

It's not industries job to teach heritage. They are there to make money and the best way to do that is to make things more efficient. You don't see many rifle hunters using lever actions or slug hunters with break action shotguns.

Some state have regs against 209 primers and sabots. I don't think it's the states job to regulate heritage.

[lakevet]

Here is an article from last year:

www.outdoornews.com/February-2012/The-year-flintlock-goes-high-tech-with-scopes/

"It’s time to decide once and for all if muzzleloader hunters should be able to use scopes on their weapons during the muzzleloader season.

So says Sen. Bill Ingebrigtsen, R-Alexandria and chair of the Environment and Natural Resources Committee."

and

'Ingebrigtsen hopes to send the bill to the floor on its own, for an up or down vote.

“It’s been around long enough; let’s quit talking about it,” he said. “Let’s see how everyone votes on it and get it over with.” '

Looks like the pro scope lawmakers didn't accept to get it over once and for all they said would be the case last year. Maybe because it was voted down, again.

Also note that Lou C says with allowing scopes for anyone on muzzleloaders an increased harvest could be expected and permitting changes would occur if needed.

"Allowing scopes during the muzzleloader season likely would result in more dead deer, but not appreciably so, said Lou Cornicelli, wildlife research manager for the DNR."

"Scopes would improve the sight picture for hunters who use them, help them see at a longer range, and may allow them to extend their time afield at dusk and dawn.

"In some parts of the state where deer are especially vulnerable during the late season – the muzzleloader season runs from the end of November until about the middle of December – “we could make permitting adjustments, if necessary,” Cornicelli said."

Translation: Increasing opportunity for buck hunters at expense of antler less hunters in areas of low deer population is fine.

No on scopes.

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

Not the article I was talking about, they had listed year by year where the most hunters were and the harvest in those top permit areas, by muzzleloader, I thought it was in the outdoor news, anyway the New York Mills area was regarded as the highest % of ML hunters in the state and guess where I hunt quite often and where my land is ? You bet. Someone must have read that article and maybe recalls it ? I believe it was about this time last year when it was published ? Sure this year was a low kill sorta in 240, wolves and lots of tags a few years back and now we're zone 2, makes sense certainly.

[skee0025]

You don't see many rifle hunters using lever actions or slug hunters with break action shotguns.

D'oh!! guilty of both..

[Wanderer]

D'oh!! guilty of both..

Yeah, me too!

[ASMOLEY]

Translation: Increasing opportunity for buck hunters at expense of antler less hunters in areas of low deer population is fine.

No on scopes.

[ASMOLEY]

D'oh!! guilty of both..

[Musky Buck]

My NYM area is solid, really in 240 10 miles east of there is where I don't want successful rifle hunters saving their tags for a maybe scoped musket hunt, that's my 2nd area of deer hunting, still in 240, I don't want to reward those jokers with a scope, if I wasn't aware of their rifle hunting success only to see them prepping their stands for muzzy season I'd be on-board, for "un" successful rifle hunters.

[hockeybc69]

why are you connecting cross tagging with scopes on muzzleloaders??

Those same guys you are talking about are probably cross tagging with all weapons, and scopes are the focus to curb that issue?

there were 25 adult bucks harvested with muzzleloader in 240 in 2011.... A whopping 25. And scopes might increase that number by how much? If any at all??

[skee0025]

Congrats on being a traditionalist! There isn't anything wrong with it, just as there isn't anything wrong with using more modern actions.

Being a traditionalist has nothing to do with it. In both cases these particular guns were the best tools available for the job at hand for the amount of cash I had at my disposal. I'm watching this debate but really not participating because I dont muzzle load. If i did, I would be firmly in the legal scope camp. Best tool for the job at hand. Tradition and heritage sound good, but your heritage and traditions may not be mine. Whether or not a scope is used will not change the amount of harvest legally available. This is just a case of one group of hunters wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do.

[jerkin'm]

Don't want to get into heated discussion...but, it it were legal, I would put one on....

[Gordie]

This is just a case of one group of hunters wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do.

That goes for both sides.

BTW I believe it to be more than just that.

[skee0025]

That goes for both sides.

No one can force you to use a scope just as no one can force you to use an in line. What others use has no effect on how you chose to conduct your hunt.