My new sidearm

[mustangt69]

Long story short, i carried my .40sw a couple years as a backup short range gun, wanted something different, original with a little more range. keep in mind ive been trying to justify an ar rifle and hunt in the "shotgun" zone. please dont get into the whole 223 is too small for deer debate. im well aware of what to expect with this gun, hence why my main gun is my trusty 12g savage 775a. so heres my baby all ready for hunting!

[mustangt69]

.223/5.56 caliber, upside down, couldnt figure out how to rotate the pic

[McGurk]

If that is your "pistol", I'd hate to see what your "shotgun" looks like...

[nofishfisherman]

Didn't Han Solo have a similar side arm? Only I'm not sure he did much deer hunting with his.

[LightningBG]

[Archerysniper]

Isn't a slug a short ranged weapon? I guess I have never carried a back up weapon and I shoot a black powder with open sights during gun season. And I have missed and still was able to reload and drop the deer.

Either way it is a cool weapon I just don't see the reason to carry it hunting when you have auto slug gun with.

[harvey lee]

I agree Sniper.

[RumRiverRat]

Unless that is a registered AOW you are in Violation of Federal laws by having a Bipod on that weapon.

If the lower is registered as a pistol putting a bipod that the legs close to form a grip or any type of forward grip on it turns it into a AOW.

If you paid the $200 tax stamp and have had the lower engraved you do not have any issues.

Quote:

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives

Washington, DC 20226

May 4, 2006

Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and ( a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

[jay83196]

Cool Gun!

"Thats not a knife this is a knife"

[Mr Special]

Cool weapon

i used to carry a sidearm "for just in case" and always told myself if i get a close shot "for me within 50yrds" i'd take it dwn with my sidearm. but i would always forget and end up shooting it with my slug gun.

this season, im leaving my slug gun and solely carrying my handgun just to make it a lil more challenging. its the only weapon i haven't harvest a deer with in my arsenal.

i do have some question tho,

im aware the the laws have change to allow .220 cal rounds to take big game. i have some buds that have taken some very nice animals with their AR's and a lot of states have allowed the use for many many yrs.

However, i thought that if someone hunted in the slug area they wouldn't be able to use a .223 since its listed as a rifle cartridge and handgun rounds needed to be at least 10mm or 357mag and a certain case length.

(please do not be offended nor am i trying to stir the pot as my question are purely to clarify my knowledge)

i tried lookin at the regs to get clarification and it doesnt have any answers for me

Thanks

[mustangt69]

Everythiing I've read says it's ok. The legs spread pretty far, you cant get your hand around it. No different than a ruger charger 10/22

[mustangt69]

A vertical fore grip is a no no, even if it has a bipod that comes out the bottom. An angled front grip is ok though from what I've read

http://www.amazon.com/Magpul-AFG1-Angled-Foregrip-Black/dp/B003D2FRIC

[Mr Special]

Everythiing I've read says it's ok. The legs spread pretty far, you can get your hand around it. No different than a ruger charger 10/22

you're right it is ok. i just heard back from the DNR. They even admit there was a lot of confusing at first. i swear most rules, regulations, code books aren't written in normal human terms

[mustangt69]

Ya it's a pain, Im not out to break any laws but it's not hard to do if you misread one little part.

[mustangt69]

This little toy is surprisingly accurate. I would not hesitate to shoot 100 + yards if the right shot presented itself. Headshot would be no problem at 50yds

[Mr Special]

oh i understand and again, please dont think i was asking to ping ya, i was just confused.

Cz i have different pistols and didn't know i could use them most of them with the rule change. its always nice to actually have clarification on these matters.

with that said,

i dont think my 9mm would do the job, so i'll stick with my 357 =)

sidenote,

do you carry it in a hoslter or a shoulder sling of sumsort?

how heavy it that badboy anyhow

[mustangt69]

Think empty they are around 3.5#. I have a single point sling that mounts on the back. Don't regret my decision to buy this over an AR. Plus it was cheaper

[nofishfisherman]

you're right it is ok. i just heard back from the DNR. They even admit there was a lot of confusing at first. i swear most rules, regulations, code books aren't written in normal human terms

Did you email the DNR? Not sure they'd be the best resource to talk to regarding federal weapons laws since its likely not their area of expertise. They'd be able to answer the .223 in a slug zone question someone brought up but I'd be hesitant to take their word on it regarding federal fire arm laws.

[mustangt69]

From all my research and others mounting bipods and asking the ATF, I haven't seen anything that makes a real bipod illegal. Check out a rugr pistol, they come factory with a bipod that folds forward

[mustangt69]

As far as 223 in shotgun, 2 diff dnr in Mpls said it was perfectly fine. Reason being for legalizing more calibers it's easier to prosecute poachers since most larger weapons are now legal deer caliber

[mustangt69]

Has to be a pistol though. Neck down rounds don't matter anymore

[Mr Special]

Has to be a pistol though. Neck down rounds don't matter anymore

yep as long as its used in a pistol

i emailed the MN DNR regarding MN law that pertained to legal big game cartridges and legal handgun rounds

here the response

"When it changed to allow .220 caliber center fire ignition rounds, all other shell case lengths, etc. restrictions were removed.

Yes, pistols of various centerfire rounds such as 9mm,45ACP,220,223, etc could be used in a slug zone"

[nofishfisherman]

Sounds like you've done your research. If you've checked with the ATF and they said it was legal without the permit then I'm sure you're fine. I had no idea if the bipod were legal or illegal but wouldn't think the MN DNR to be the people to ask.

Also just in general terms for anyone with similar questions I wouldn't look at other guns that are sold with certain accessories (like the bi-pod or grip in this case) and then assume just because you can buy that gun that it would make adding a similar accessory to your gun legal without additional registration. The laws these days are just too confusing to make any assumptions like that. If anyone ever has questions like that its better not to assume anything but instead get the answer straight from the proper authority.

[JeffB]

Very cool gun, and I'm sure that many people could take a deer cleanly with it. But, will say that if i saw someone hunting with that gun I would have the first impression that this is one of those guys that goes through 100 rounds, and wounds 5 deere just to bag one. It maybe an unfair first impression, but if I didn't know the person firing it very well I wouldn't want to be hunting within a mile of someone carrying that weapon.

[mustangt69]

I'm pretty particular about my shots. Most of my shots are broadside under 80 yards. With my savage shotgun im 7 for 9 deer I've shot at, with maybe using 12-15 shells. Not best shot but definitely not the worst. Most misses were during a deer drive