Finding does vs Finding bucks

[mainbutter]

Well I've been enjoying using a climbing tree stand for the first time ever. This is only my second season hunting deer, and I've come to a realization:

Legal bucks are incredibly fewer and farther between than adult does. I expected this, but I'm surprised at just how drastically antlerless deer outnumber legal bucks.

One simple question - If I'm finding does just fine, am I on the right track to find bucks or do I need to change things up?

I had four deer walk within shooting distance today, a very young momma with two fawns, and a small lone antlerless deer later.

[96trigger]

In 3 weeks, if you can stay on the does, you will find the bucks. What you are seeing is very common, bucks are staying nocturnal and are in shut down mode. They have all but disappeared from my trail cameras, however, when the rut hits, if you can find does, the bucks will follow.

[Musky Buck]

And even then many areas the bucks will lock up with a doe and primarily breed and rut in the dark also once opening day of gun hunting is done. Here's how it goes you just spent 3 days or so of tough hunting, hardly see anything, decide why not go home for lunch, while you're eating at high noon there stands the buck you're after in the middle of your field for crazy reasons at high noon. Keep hunting, keep at it, and eventually your turn will come, if you're in a good doe area and they are hanging around yet end of Oct. into November the bucks in the night know they're there and they'll be around, it's up to luck and scouting and patience and all the intangibles of deer hunting.

[james_walleye]

Isn't that amazing trigger. They have disappeared from my camera to. I have Oct 19-27th off. It should get cranking during this time frame. I would have rather had Halloween week off but couldn't get it. But then again the last 2 years I shot 125-130" deer on October 23rd and 26th.

[muskiemanAD]

We went down and were looking to fill the freezer with a doe and we actually saw a lot of bucks and the camera was filled with them too from the last few days. Saw saw rather nice bucks with a group of 4 that came out together with 2 looking like 3.5 year olds...

[slimngrizzly]

I hardly ever see a doe.

I think all of the above statements are correct BUT...

I also beleive if you want to see/shoot big bucks, you have to HUNT big bucks. They are a different animal. It can work to hunt the does and wait for the bucks to come, OR it can work better to hunt the buck.

[96trigger]

OK slim, how does one do that?

[slimngrizzly]

Well im not saying its that easy, but for starters I think many people who are starting hunting naturally hunt edges or more "observatory stands". Those are great place to sit and even greater for seeing deer. But bucks, or more so mature ones, are a shy and reclusive animal this time of year. They will use the security of cover until dark or maybe not move at all. Get in closer to thick cover and go to places you may not be able to see as well, but you may see what your looking for.

Also, this time of year, read the sign. Its like an open book! Bucks are establishing rub and scrape lines now. If your not seeing any sign of this, then your not in the right place for a buck RIGHT NOW. It may be time to move.

If you can get set up to where theres sign and thicker cover, occasionally try sparring or grunting. Younger bucks will likely be curious and in a thicker area come strolling right into your lap, next thing you know...BACKSTRAPS!

I dont know how "mainbutter" is hunting, or where, or what food sources are like, etc. but id bet with some small changes it should be fairly simple to set up on a "legal" buck. Thats not asking much! And especially with a climber, you have options. Use them to put yourself on the "X". Good luck!

[96trigger]

Thanks for elaborating. I new what you meant, but wanted to hear your explanation, and it was a very good explanation. Right now, almost all of my bucks are nocturnal, even though I have great scrape and rub lines starting to show up. I won't have much of a choice but to stay on the does and wait for the rut or all the corn to come out. There is a reason that there hasn't been much activity on the archery forum for harvest results, right now, the bigger bucks just aren't moving much.

I have a couple as you say, observatory stands, set up on field edges when I want to see deer, and I have a couple in places where the big bucks tend to roam. I only hunt those stands when the conditions are perfect. They are generally much harder to get to. I am 100% positive that I will see a nice buck in them at some point in time.

Mainbutter, you will need to do some sneaky pre-scouting trips to get to the areas that slim is talking about. You will need to have your trees picked out etc... You don't want to be roaming around a bucks living quarters or they will move.

[rkhinrichs]

slimngrizzly- i was wondering i hunt the north woods mainely. duluth, and two harbors city limits. clear cuts outside of town. ANd eveyone says find the food sources. but up here thats not always obivous like in farm country were theres corn. in farm country a good bet might be... hunt in think/pitch point leading from bedding to feeding. what do you do up north were the food sources are not always easy to tell? find edges with sign and hunt them or what/how do you approach big woods?

[mainbutter]

That's exactly the kind of information I was curious about! I'm still very new at this, and reading signs is certainly a skill that takes time to acquire.

I have not seen anything that made me think "oh, that's a scrape/rub/whatever".

I'm hunting 120 acres of forest surrounded by farms in between the hinkley-to-moose lake area. There is a small river running through the land, and I'm sticking to the south/east side of the river, limiting me to about 40 acres. I haven't done too much scouting precisely because I don't want to push the deer out of the area, basically I'm trying to get a day or two every other week to come up here, and a whole week off of work early november.

I have a feeling I may need to cross the river at this point in time to find bucks based on what slim said. The other side is much thicker, though with fewer trees and they are certainly shorter. I've been avoiding it simply because it's more work and further away from home base. I want to get to know these 120 acres really well, and will go further and further out in successive years most likely.

Are bucks still nocturnal even during a new moon, or the nights near a new moon? I'll be back at it oct 12/13/14, and will have darker nights. In the meantime I'm waiting for the weather to drop in temps a bit before I take a meat doe

[Bear55]

Good post slim, especially the fresh sign part. If I don't find some kind of fresh sign on the way into a setup I am moving to a different chunk of land if I have enough time. Now I don't alwasy have time to do all that but almost every time I have seen or shot a nice buck from the stand there was good sign in the area.

I know of a great quote for this thread, I can't remember where I read it but it goes somethign like "hunt the bucks where the are, not where you want them to be".

[slimngrizzly]

slimngrizzly- i was wondering i hunt the north woods mainely. duluth, and two harbors city limits. clear cuts outside of town. And eveyone says find the food sources. but up here thats not always obivous like in farm country were theres corn. in farm country a good bet might be... hunt in think/pitch point leading from bedding to feeding. what do you do up north were the food sources are not always easy to tell? find edges with sign and hunt them or what/how do you approach big woods?

Most bigwoods hunting ive done has been around Hayward, WI and I tip my hat to you because its a much different style hunting. Much of those deer feed on browse so it is difficult to hunt a food source if you dont have an obvious one. I always checked the aerial photo and looked for something "different". The highest ridges are often used for bedding so topo maps help there. I looked for pinchpoints or saddles between ridges or sloughs and it will at least up your odds.

Look for big rubs. Those deer are there now, you just have to hope they move.

Also I rattled a lot in that area with better than average success. By rattling I felt i was "creating something". Those deer seemed to feel more secure than farmland deer and traveled more in daytime. By calling and rattling you could pullin a deer from a trail 100-200 yards off that would have otherwise never known you were there!

Im not claiming to be any kind of expert as I just simply haven't hunted a lot in that type of terrain. It is tough! And like Trigger said, the bucks are not on their feet much now so that makes it even more difficult. Your best bet is to wait until Late October at the earliest for a mature deer plus all bucks will be putting more miles on their pedometers at that time!

[slimngrizzly]

That's exactly the kind of information I was curious about! I'm still very new at this, and reading signs is certainly a skill that takes time to acquire.

I have not seen anything that made me think "oh, that's a scrape/rub/whatever".

I'm hunting 120 acres of forest surrounded by farms in between the hinkley-to-moose lake area. There is a small river running through the land, and I'm sticking to the south/east side of the river, limiting me to about 40 acres. I haven't done too much scouting precisely because I don't want to push the deer out of the area, basically I'm trying to get a day or two every other week to come up here, and a whole week off of work early november.

I have a feeling I may need to cross the river at this point in time to find bucks based on what slim said. The other side is much thicker, though with fewer trees and they are certainly shorter. I've been avoiding it simply because it's more work and further away from home base. I want to get to know these 120 acres really well, and will go further and further out in successive years most likely.

Are bucks still nocturnal even during a new moon, or the nights near a new moon? I'll be back at it oct 12/13/14, and will have darker nights. In the meantime I'm waiting for the weather to drop in temps a bit before I take a meat doe

First off, "bucks" and "big bucks" are 2 different species! All deer are going to be more active during a full moon at night and less active during a new moon. Big bucks on the other hand ARE for the most part nocturnal ALL THE TIME! Just less in the rut and less yet during a new moon. These are small factors that can mean a substantial difference for us hunters to get an upper hand a few moments out of the year.

It sounds to me like you have a GREAT chunk of property to hunt there! Thick woods with a continuous water source and surrounding ag fields, perfect! Its only a matter of time before you put a recipe together. If there is a side of the property with corn, I would favor that side right now. Maybe get closer to that water during evening hunts and look for fresh rubs on young, smaller diameter aspens. Just learning the property is going to be 75% of your battle. Every adventure should make it a little more understandable!

It sounds like 120 acres of everything a deer hunter could want! I think its just a matter of time. Look for sign and set up on it! And dont get too discouraged because its only going to get better in about 15-20 days!

Ill look forward to seeing your buck photo on here soon!

[Musky Buck]

Having scouted mid to late October, I used to go to my neighbors land an hour and a half before legal shooting to check a branch that has had scrapes under it for as long as I can remember fairly deep in the woods where the grass/willow meet the higher ground, if it looked fresh and large, and I look for a large track in it, I'd stay, most years it wouldn't or it would only to go dormant, so I then back out drive to my dads a mile away and hunt the creek bottom still having plenty of time to get to my stand before legal shooting, then off and on through the season I'd scout it mid-day on windy days, if it got refreshened during the hunting season I knew there was a big one around if the scrape was large, nowaday my t-cam watches it for me, this worked for me 3 times with 2 of them weighing over 200 dressed, typically the tree rubs in the area tell me if a big one is around also, and without the scrape I've certainly tried that area many times with 0 success, but on big scrape years it's like gold if I can weasel in without spooking him, I go in so early because the deer are generally out in the fields, if I spook him that early I have a better chance he may resume his normal routine because it's pitch black except moon years, and because of all the other hunters that are to come scaring most of the deer in the area fields as so many are so lazy they drive their truck right to their field stand which is part of why they don't have very good luck, sending most of the deer into their cover options, with me already waiting for legal light, not bumping them more because I'm tardy going in, years ago with few hunters around that didn't matter, but pressure is 10 fold now. Good Luck guys and man it's only like 30 days away.

[InTheNorthwoods]

That's exactly the kind of information I was curious about! I'm still very new at this, and reading signs is certainly a skill that takes time to acquire.

I have not seen anything that made me think "oh, that's a scrape/rub/whatever".

I'm hunting 120 acres of forest surrounded by farms in between the hinkley-to-moose lake area. There is a small river running through the land, and I'm sticking to the south/east side of the river, limiting me to about 40 acres. I haven't done too much scouting precisely because I don't want to push the deer out of the area, basically I'm trying to get a day or two every other week to come up here, and a whole week off of work early november.

I have a feeling I may need to cross the river at this point in time to find bucks based on what slim said. The other side is much thicker, though with fewer trees and they are certainly shorter. I've been avoiding it simply because it's more work and further away from home base. I want to get to know these 120 acres really well, and will go further and further out in successive years most likely.

Are bucks still nocturnal even during a new moon, or the nights near a new moon? I'll be back at it oct 12/13/14, and will have darker nights. In the meantime I'm waiting for the weather to drop in temps a bit before I take a meat doe

Use aerial maps to your advantage. Look for "lines" in the photos - places where the terrain changes and creates edge cover. Use these spots you've located and go in and scout one day. The one time scouting will yield more benefit to you than detriment it will cause to the woods, and things will likely calm back down prior to gun season.

In my opinion, it is okay to hunt conservatively/low impact style IF you know what you are dealing with (i.e. know the land, bedding areas, travel routes, or know the animal you want is in the area and you want to hunt him "outside-in" so as not to educate him). If you don't know these things, which presumably you don't based on your statements here and the newness of the property, I'd say get in there and scout, be aggressive, and try to get on the deer/deer sign you want to hunt. You can always back out if you fell like you're too aggressive, but if you never get in there, you won't know if you're just a 100 yards off, or if you're wasting your time entirely.

[bigbucks]

In my experience if you're looking for any buck, you'll find one or several with the does. The yearlings are usually with them quite a bit all along. The bigger ones are generally not going to be with does unless it's rut time, so hunt accordingly. I would agree most of the good ones are far from roads & found on the edges of thick cover.

[96trigger]

i would try and be a little more aggressive without making my presence known. It doesnt do you any good to hunt where the deer aren't, you might as well sit in the truck with binoculars. Sneak around if you can. i would do it late morning or early afternoon. Find the trails, walk along them, not on them, touch as little as possible. You should be able find a rub line and scrapes on your property. If it looks like a place where deer might bed, back out. try and locate trees off the trail, and on high points and ridges where deer might travel by, and once again, if you are seeing does, the mature bucks will eventually follow. I would get the scouting done as soon as possible. The closer we get to the rut, the more apt you are to start bumping and disturbing mature bucks. They wont tolerate much of anything right now, but in a few weeks, they lose some of their senses.

[slimngrizzly]

Absolutely 96!!! You have to know what your land has to offer or else youre just sittin there.... figure that out now, get in there and kill one later.

[mainbutter]

It sounds like 120 acres of everything a deer hunter could want! I think its just a matter of time.

Yup, that's exactly what I thought and why I want to learn it! I've been thinking of perhaps trying to set up on the river during opening firearms, if we don't get any precipitation I've got a couple of shin-high crossing points and a pair of waders. I haven't figured out a good spot to sit with a bow that'd give me a comfortable shot at one of the watering points with zillions of hoof prints (among other animal footprints). It might be difficult to get a carcass back across if needed, but I never rule out hard work if the results are great success.

Thanks for the replies. I saw a few more does yesterday, surprising because they were on the move and chowing during midday with all the wind. I guess they wanted some more calories with the chill? I ended up spooking two (doe and fawn) that were even open browsing a 200x100ft clearing on my walk back to the house on the property.

I'm back to work for 7 days, then a 3 day weekend! I haven't had 3 days in a row off since.. may??? Makes it hard to get out there as often as I'd like.

[Bear55]

This nice cold front might have some bucks on their feet this weekend, hopefully we see some antler put down.

[Meat-Run]

Bear55 thats my plan today and tomorrow just waiting for the wind to subside just a bit so I can actually let go of the tree to hold my bow...;o). The goal next two days is to put a flat top down and then focus on bone, I just hope I don't have to lower my standards each week as we get closer to the orange-army day.

mr

[bowhunternw]

Went out in the snow last night, with high hopes but it didn't seem to trigger them as much as I thought it would. Saw deer but they still moved pretty late.

I do wonder what the ratio of mature bucks is to the rest, maybe 50:1. First off there isn't that many of them, then you have to get fairly close to where they bed. And then just hope that they move before the end of shooting light. Been seeing some small bucks but they act more like does. Some people evidently get lucky on the big ones early.

[slimngrizzly]

The goal next two days is to put a flat top down and then focus on bone, I just hope I don't have to lower my standards each week as we get closer to the orange-army day.

mr

My standards go UP every moment it gets closer to gun season!

[InTheNorthwoods]

Went out in the snow last night, with high hopes but it didn't seem to trigger them as much as I thought it would. Saw deer but they still moved pretty late.

I do wonder what the ratio of mature bucks is to the rest, maybe 50:1. First off there isn't that many of them, then you have to get fairly close to where they bed. And then just hope that they move before the end of shooting light. Been seeing some small bucks but they act more like does. Some people evidently get lucky on the big ones early.

I tend to believe you are wrong on a few points.

First, if your deer herd is representative of most of MN, I'd guess there are more mature bucks than you/most people imagine (running trail cams effectively will open your eyes immensely), and would place the number closer to 1/10 re: mature bucks to remaining deer (most does and atlerless deer are not recognizable and are more visible). The ratio gets skewed in peoples' eyes in my opinion because the Mature deer that are alive and around seem more scarce than they actually are. This is due to their behavior - mature bucks aren't "deer", they are their own species of "deer". They move less, often living in small core areas, they bed in areas that are proven to be safe, they tolerate very little, etc.

Second, I generally don't believe that people are getting "lucky" and harvesting mature deer early in the year, or for that matter, at any time in the year. From my experience, I have found that a small percentage of hunters kill a large percentage of the big bucks over time. Sure, people get lucky, but if you look around this board or know anyone who has shot a "big buck" in the past, I'm guessing they have shot big ones in the past, or that they are young and they will shoot more big ones in the future. Second, early season is one of the greatest times to kill a mature buck due to their ability to be patterned. Bringing me to my final point as to whay I don't believe people are getting "lucky" killing mature bucks right now - my guess is the people that are killing mature deer are the same people who have done so in the past, and will do so in the future, and I'm guessing they found, patterned, and got to know these mature deer and were hunting a big deer specifically based on their knowledge that a mature deer was around.

Hunting mature deer is different than hunting deer (especially outside of the rut), and it takes a different level of commitment than most weekend hunters put in.