Sheriffs shuting down all public launches?!

[Hoffer]

I'm just having fun with the situation. Its Just that Darwinism would indicate survival of the fittest. These guys driving out in poor conditions would under 'Darwinism" adapt and change and most likely become stronger in that same situation - thereby increasing their odds of survival.

Whereas, with the Joe Soucheray garage logic - "nature weeding out the stupid" theory - I believe that is what you were kind of going for here. 2 very different "theories" - not a glass half full or half empty comparison.

I have posted a few times on this subject and I dont want to beat a dead horse either. But I want to further clarify - that I dont necessarily think the ban was totally needed either. But do I think its a big deal? Nope, not at all. It is what it is for a couple of weeks - and then we are done with the season anyway. Will this ban effect us for years to come and somehow change our ice fishing days for the worse? Nope, not at all. As was already posted here - and a very good post at that - this law has been in effect for years anyway. It was just implemented this year- for who knows...maybe the first time? At least the first time in a long time. So, lets revisit this next year at this time and discuss how things have changed for all of us. I am pretty sure, everyone will be going "huh? what are you talking about?" Everything will be fine and back to normal.

[CrappieNight]

There is a law against eating a hamburger in St. Cloud on a Sunday. I'm sure you feel that is good law and has merit, right?

[TruthWalleyes]

Darwin's theory is fairly consisten with evolution, so i won't argue with you there. It also takes a few dead birds before other birds adapt

"Let em fall in", I say, "And may the general public be observent and learn from mistakes others have made"

Those who aren't observent, or concerned with their own well being..."Let em fall in, You can't fix stupid".

[McGurk]

Can somebody move this thread to the Outdoors Discussion area? It's starting to get a SillyTown vibe to it, and would fit pretty comfortably over there...

[Slabasaurus]

There is a law against eating a hamburger in St. Cloud on a Sunday. I'm sure you feel that is good law and has merit, right?

There is a law governing how fast one is able to drive their vehicle. I believe that there are even special circumstances for areas around schools during times when kids likely will be walking around the area.

I am sure you feel that is a terrible law and has no merit, right?

If driving was a right, as eating is, and freedom of choice is, then your burger analogy would be at least a little related to this discussion. The city and county aren't telling you not to fish. They're saying you can't drive on the lake. (Sorry. Not all archaic and non-repealled laws are created equal)

I mean, I am still up in arms about the fact that we allow the TSA to do what they want and the patriot act keeps getting renewed... this ordinance really doesn't bother me too much at all.

Now, next year if we're in a more normal year and the county pulls this, I'll be pretty vocal with the county as to why they're making unwise decisions relative to where they're focusing their time and energy...

[TKOGWEE]

Gurk, at over 6000 views, sure seems to be a popular/serious topic.

Hypothetical question, who would be fine with Mille Lacs county shutting down the lake, during open water, because the waves were deemed too large, even though the bay you fish in is fine?

[Hoffer]

Slabasaurus - agreed.

Crappienight. St. Cloud isnt in Henneping county - so I dont mind either way what they do there

With that said...if I pulled that logic in my college debate class my prof would have given me the hook. And I am not going to bite on yours.

[TKOGWEE]

Thin ice

Danger: Thin Ice

All vehicle access to Bald Eagle Lake in White Bear Township has been closed by the Ramsey County Sheriff’s Water Patrol until further notice.

The thin ice, open water, and two incidents of vehicles breaking through the ice in the past three days led to the decision of the Ramsey County Sheriff to close vehicle access to Bald Eagle Lake under State Statute 86B.106. Additionally, the Ramsey County Sheriff’s Office asks that all persons stay off Bald Eagle Lake due to thin ice conditions.

The Ramsey County Sheriff’s Office also asks people to use extreme caution on all other lakes in Ramsey County due to the warm weather this winter season. While surface ice on lakes and ponds has the appearance of being stable, the Water Patrol is discouraging the public from driving any vehicle or ATV on ice until further notice, and to use caution if venturing out on foot.

On December 29, 2011, the Water Patrol closed vehicle access to Turtle Lake in Shoreview. Turtle Lake remains closed. On Sunday, January 22, and on Monday, January 23, 2012, vehicles broke through the ice on Bald Eagle Lake in two separate incidents. No one was injured.

That's from the county HSOforum. They must have smarter people in Ramsey county so as they didn't have to close EVERY lake. This in my opinion is a better response to sketchy ice conditions. Warn people, then let them make the decision.

[Hoffer]

TKOGWEE

I like your question and this is how I would respond.

To the naked eye I can see high waves and dangerous conditions on the main lake of Mille lacs. The bay i am fishing might be on the lee side of the wind and offer a secluded and calm place to fish. I might be a little peeved about them shutting down the whole lake.

To the naked eye on an ice fishing lake - all the ice looks the same. yes, there may be some pressure ridges here and there and a crack in the ice, or a channel that has not completely froze over yet and shows obvious water that would indicate unsafe conditions. However, to the naked eye - there will also be ice conditions in other areas of the lake that look to be just fine and safe. They may have the outward appearance of ice that is 20 inches thick in the same area - but is only 8 inches thick. For some reason this year, the ice has froze unevenly and inconsistent. To the naked eye you just cant tell. Unless you were able to drill a path of holes all along your intended route (kind of hard to do) you may run into patches of unsafe ice right along patches of safe ice. In comparison, on Mille lacs - I can see the waves and can be confident of my decision to fish in a safe spot. I suppose other will answer - but what if your out there and the wind changes...well if I am in a safe bay fishing - hopefully I would be close enough to shore to make a quick trip to safety - either way - I could visually see and predict my safety.

Like I said, I am not all for this ban. I am just willing to go with the flow and dont really mind them making a judgement call with just a few weeks left. Maybe it has already saved a life or 2 - or at least a vehicle.

Last, I went out on Tonka yesterday. I was out there super bowl sunday as well - and I drove. The week in between we had some pretty good cold weather day and night. You would have thought it would have formed some additional ice. Nope. We went back to the same exact spot - and where we had 12 to 14 inches on super bowl sunday - we had at the most 12 yesterday. I was VERY glad I did not drive out

[mallardnwalleye]

There is not an increase in danger otherwise we would have seen an increase in deaths. We don't have solid data on weather there is in fact an increase in break throughs from previous years. You are baseing risk on your perceptions-opinions not facts. Again ATV's and walkers have a much higher rate of death than vehicles. 16/100 = 6.25 times higher. Should we ban them as they are a more likely cause of death? When a truck goes down the overwhelming majority of the time the driver has the ability to get out before the truck fully breaks through. If it hits true open water that is another story. Vehichles just aren't that great of a risk. Right now the ice is great in most spots. I drove a 1/2 ton truck all over this weekend and loved it. Not in Hennepin County as there is "special Hennepin ice" on those lakes that make them more unsafe. Please drive and enjoy. Do not drive on Hennepin County Lakes as there is a ban and special ice exsists there.

[cavalierowner]

I have to get this topic off my watched topics, it's filling up my inbox. My last word on the topic and I'll shut my mouth:

I've been on this planet and state for 63 years and I've seen a lot of changes in that time. A lot of them not for the better. You had better be careful about how much you let the government protect you from yourself, not only in this specific case but in all things in life.

[Nick Kuhn]

You guys are making a big deal over what really has been freakish weather. On average the lakes here in the metro have ice out about 10 days after the lakes in Madison WI have ice out. The ice on Mendota is starting to go. The below is a photo of Lake Geneva (as of 3PM today), which normally has over a foot of ice at this time of year:

[mccullen]

I'm suprised that some ice fisherman take the news so hard. We all have to follow stupid rules everyday at work, school, significant other, parents, gov't, etc, so why does this little restriction annoy you so much? They never said you can't go fish, isn't that what you guys want to do?

[IamZombie]

There is not an increase in danger otherwise we would have seen an increase in deaths. We don't have solid data on weather there is in fact an increase in break throughs from previous years. You are baseing risk on your perceptions-opinions not facts. Again ATV's and walkers have a much higher rate of death than vehicles. 16/100 = 6.25 times higher. Should we ban them as they are a more likely cause of death? When a truck goes down the overwhelming majority of the time the driver has the ability to get out before the truck fully breaks through. If it hits true open water that is another story. Vehichles just aren't that great of a risk. Right now the ice is great in most spots. I drove a 1/2 ton truck all over this weekend and loved it. Not in Hennepin County as there is "special Hennepin ice" on those lakes that make them more unsafe. Please drive and enjoy. Do not drive on Hennepin County Lakes as there is a ban and special ice exsists there.

So is your justification that no one has died?

Cars might be busting through all over, but no one died, it must be safe?

[mallardnwalleye]

I'm suprised that some ice fisherman take the news so hard. We all have to follow stupid rules everyday at work, school, significant other, parents, gov't, etc, so why does this little restriction annoy you so much? They never said you can't go fish, isn't that what you guys want to do?

1. Because I know old people who now can't.

2. It takes a freedom away-unnecessarily.

3. The basis for making the dcision is illogical and based on emotions, assumptions and perceptions.

4. It sets a precedent to take these freedoms away other places and other times without thinking something through.

Matt-

Yes and Yes safer than early or late ice as well as ATV's or Walking.

[CrappieNight]

Slab, I feel your speed limit connection is flawed, why have they INCREASED the speed limits on roads? Possibly because they have adapted to statistics and safety measures in vehicles, not our abilities to drive. Statistics and facts will back up a law that will prevent harm to other people, such as, speed limits. Absolutely no connection to someone trying to save me from myself.

Look back in time for once, seat belt laws = someone trying to save me from myself. Smoking bans = someone trying to save me from myself. Shutting down the access' = someone trying to save me from myself.

And please give up your "rescuer safety" argument, it has never held water. Do what I do, thank as many veterans as you can for putting their lives on the line to protect our rights to hurt ourselves.

Mallard, Matt doesn't get the fact that if they were so concerned with keeping us alive (safe), they would ban ATV and snowmobile travel since those are the only vehicles that have caused death this season. The rest of us get it.

[Hoffer]

Mallard-

The reason you see more deaths from walkers and ATVs is that they are also going out on much earlier ice. Your statistics quote the numbers of total deaths being higher for walkers than for drivers. Your logic being that its safer to drive than to walk. The walkers are going through and dying because they are pushing early ice. Its not too often I am hearing of a walker dying because they fell through in late January or February. However, what we do hear is drivers going through NOW. And thats the issue that is being discussed.

You did a fine job of reiterating your points above.

Here are my 4.

1. If you know someone who cant walk now - offer to help them out -give them a ride on a sled.

2. Our freedom isnt taken away. This is a temporary judgement call based on what they know about the current safety of the ice due to strange and rare winter weather patterns this ONE year.

3. There is no emotion, thought or perceptions involved when there has been an increase in people going through the ice recently. There was no emotion or perception when I walked out on Minnetonka one week after having some of the cooler weather we have had this year - and finding less ice than I did in the same spot a week before. That is fact. Again, I am glad I didnt drive this Sunday.

4. The precedent to take our other freedoms away - I will in the most respectful way say - is pushing the subject a bit too far. These guys making the decisions dont want to even deal with this dump. Its not on their radar - and they have better things to do. It was set in place for one specific time and served as a temporary judgement call to prevent any more issues with a season soon to come to a close. And as stated earlier - its already been a law to make this judgement call.

Again, lets revisit this next year at this time. I have set a date in my calendar already.

I am going to fix up a huge serving of crow in Mid-February. I will be the first one to take a huge helping if we see our personal rights and freedoms taken away and we are having to deal with negative outcomes from this years decision. I will choke it down and eat the whole plate. On the other hand, I would also like to serve up a plate and hand it out if the opposite is true. My Dinner invitation stands. Until next year...

Hoffer

[CrappieNight]

Hoffer, no one is arguing the point that the ice is shabby this year, that fact is certainly absolute. What we do have a problem with is the logic based argument, which you've already stated you are incapable of applying, that we don't need to be saved from ourselves.

That's the slippery slope that this MAY be heading towards. We don't know what will happen in the next 20 years, we may have 2' of ice in December, if that's the case then your "crow eating" point is moot. History has proven a turn towards the illogical prevalence of laws set to save citizens from themselves. Not to be confused with logical laws set to protect citizens from other citizens.

[amateurfishing]

Slab, I feel your speed limit connection is flawed, why have they INCREASED the speed limits on roads? Possibly because they have adapted to statistics and safety measures in vehicles, not our abilities to drive. Statistics and facts will back up a law that will prevent harm to other people, such as, speed limits. Absolutely no connection to someone trying to save me from myself.

Look back in time for once, seat belt laws = someone trying to save me from myself. Smoking bans = someone trying to save me from myself. Shutting down the access' = someone trying to save me from myself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOMEHOW THIS COPY WENT WRONG- MY COMMENTS ARE BETWEEN SLASH LINES, SORRY,

with no dis respect meant to you or your opinions, your thoughts (and some of others) purely clearly state how selfish you are. Your comments are always about "you" as stated above.

would you not put a seatbelt on an older loved one or small child that needs help? ever hear of 2nd hand smoke that causes cancer to those who DONT SMOKE? no one EVER took your fishing rights/priveleges away & quite honestly you CAN drive anything u want on any water u want, u just have to be ready to suffer the possible consequences, there are ways around this issue for you gov't haters IF you are willing to either put in a little extra effort, time, or suffer consequences, but the funny thing is like a little kid you spend more time complaining bout something instead of enjoying what you have and just moving on

if "your rights" are being violated so badly, go sue them in court,.....or maybe try and contact someone with the DNR or sheriffs office and try to work toward a safe and amicable solution instead of being so hellbent that you are being wronged.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And please give up your "rescuer safety" argument, it has never held water. Do what I do, thank as many veterans as you can for putting their lives on the line to protect our rights to hurt ourselves.

Mallard, Matt doesn't get the fact that if they were so concerned with keeping us alive (safe), they would ban ATV and snowmobile travel since those are the only vehicles that have caused death this season. The rest of us get it.

[Hoffer]

Crappie-

As I have mentioned in my posts - and I am not necessarily agreeing to the ban. I am simply stating I am willing to live with this decision and can see some merits in it. Short term. Not going to effect our long term rights. I am simply not buying in to this "slippery slope" argument. I do understand your feelings that we "dont need to be saved from ourselves".

I see the merits in that standpoint as well. I have ice fished for over 30 years and feel like I make intelligent decisions and if I dont - well then bad on me. However, there are others out there that might not be as capable and I also feel there are others out there that are capable but could be easily fooled this year. If we potentially help out a few that arent able to help themselves - is that so bad? I just see no harm in erring on the conservative side for a few weeks.

[Slabasaurus]

Slab, I feel your speed limit connection is flawed, why have they INCREASED the speed limits on roads? Possibly because they have adapted to statistics and safety measures in vehicles, not our abilities to drive. Statistics and facts will back up a law that will prevent harm to other people, such as, speed limits. Absolutely no connection to someone trying to save me from myself.

Look back in time for once, seat belt laws = someone trying to save me from myself. Smoking bans = someone trying to save me from myself. Shutting down the access' = someone trying to save me from myself.

And please give up your "rescuer safety" argument, it has never held water. Do what I do, thank as many veterans as you can for putting their lives on the line to protect our rights to hurt ourselves.

Never made an argument for rescuer safety... that isn't what I was getting at.

They've increased speed limits on freeways relatively recently (1995). The reason they were at 55 was not for safety, it was for fuel consumption.

The reason that we have speed limits in general is for public safety. Under certain circumstances (say, 3:00 on a weekday afternoon) some areas (around schools) have an unusual number of little children wandering around the area (that's what kids do). To ensure that those little children do not become little pancakes the (nanny) state has imposed temporary (yet mandatory) speed limits until the normal activity level resumes for that area... Construction zones are another example of temporary situations that require extra "babysitting."

I think my point was the sky isn't falling because one sheriff decided to say nobody can drive their cars onto lakes in one county in the state.

Was it a hasty decision? Maybe...Do I think it was necessary to close the entire county? Probably not, but time and resources to selectively close lakes based on actual conditions would cost a lot more than cutting off the entire county lakes from automobile access.

[CrappieNight]

Slab, I feel your speed limit connection is flawed, why have they INCREASED the speed limits on roads? Possibly because they have adapted to statistics and safety measures in vehicles, not our abilities to drive. Statistics and facts will back up a law that will prevent harm to other people, such as, speed limits. Absolutely no connection to someone trying to save me from myself.

What part of that didn't you understand? BIG difference between a logical law protecting a citizen from another citizen and an illogical law protecting citizens from themselves.

[SFC]

They tried to move this thread to SillyTown, they rejected it reason being to many silly posts.

Can somebody move this thread to the Outdoors Discussion area? It's starting to get a SillyTown vibe to it, and would fit pretty comfortably over there...

[CrappieNight]

Also, I haven't heard a single statement from an "anti-government" poster. I have heard from plenty of us who are anti-big goverment.

[amateurfishing]

are there any volunteer groups with professional backgrounds or that constantly check ice on any given lake or spot on a given lake that would/could pass specific data/criteria on to DNR or local sheriffs dept. in aiding them current/daily or twice per week ice conditions? for all of u that believe the system is flawed knee jerk decision was made, maybe this is a great example of a reason to have everyday trained volunteers work hand in hand with sheriffs dept. providing them detailed current data on what is or is not safe. maybe not to look at this event with a scorn or scowl but a learning time for those who beleive it is still safe in some areas and commuicate that in a positive way to those who make the decisions in the office regarding what ice is or is not safe. this is a democracy and instead of complaining, go to the sheriffs office, talk to someone, ask why certain decisions were made, and ask why no public input was involved or why there was not a grace period of some kind to acclamate to new rules (albiet this could have resulted in more accidents immediately.) Instead of fussen & fuming, use the power of spoken word to those who made the decisions, who knows, maybe they had thought about it a week or 2 prior and just did not expect the thin ice that was out there. It could be a positive learning experience for all if approached the right way.

agree to disagree for now... good luck, good fisnhing.