Twins Postseason Thread

[Willy]

I wouldn't blame it on Gardy. The guys just didn't have it tonight. We have to defend our home turf a lot better though. The last few years, the twins have been a flop at home in the playoffs. What happened to the dome being an automatic playoff win for the Twins and a place that teams are afraid to play?

[The Grebe]

"Turn out the lights, the partys over!" Cheez! No more hee,hee's and no more Twins
baseball until next spring....boo hoo!

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

FOR SALE
40,000 Rally Hankys
Hardly Used
Price Negotiable
Call 800-Yank-Win

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

Grebe,
Love your Dandy Don reference. I guess you guys got to play 4 more games than we did but we are both on the outside looking in now. I guess I can get back to hating the Yankees and pulling for the Bo Sox to end their curse. Then there will only be one curse left, one that I enjoy immensely year after year here on the south side of Chicago.
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD....YES!

[The Grebe]

Windy City...I don't mind the Yankees....after the Twins, they are my favorite team. I'll take them to win the big show.

After the Vikes, I like Green Bay and "Da Bears"! I'm more of a baseball fan then a football fan and I know absolutely nothing about Basketball, or hockey! I do know some about boxing....past and present.

[Guido]

Come on Santana!! We need a game 5 !!!
K K K K K K K K K K
------------------
1...2...bam got him

[This message has been edited by Guido (edited 10-09-2004).]

[soldoncass]

Bummer, so many close ones, but not quite enough.
Santana was GREAT, but NONE of the other starters were sharp.
Bullpen did great ,until stretched too much to cover too many innings.
One thing about the Yanks is they don't miss" mistake "pitches.
Gardy did GREAT this year, they had lots of injuries and brought lots of young guys up to get a "taste" of majors. Should help NEXT year. Always easy to second guess (in hindsite) a managers decisions, and plenty of criticism around,but there aren't many THREE-PETE champions around , so we need to acknowledge his success. GREAT JOB!!!!!!!
I always root for "whoever" is playing the Yanks out of principle.
GGGGOOOOO WHOEVER!

[muskiejoe]

Three peat champions of what? The worst division in baseball? Wow that is awesome......... The Twins complain about fans not coming to games. Maybe spend some money and I will come, otherwise you will always be a second tier team. Wow that is great......

[juggs]

Just gotta say this--everybody says how the Twins win by playing fundamental baseball, defense and doing the little things. I've been watching them since they've been a recent contender and have to say that they are terrible at some of the basics. Like Saturday's game--Hunter and Koskie both get thrown out trying to gain an extra base when they're, what, seven runs down? The coups de gras was game 4 when Rodriquez steals third without a throw, then scores on a wild pitch that Borders tries to backhand. Are you kidding me!?!? Talk about fundamental baseball. Very basic. They deserve to lose playing Mickey Mouse ball like that. They've been rotten all year long getting guys in from third with less than two out (remember Kubel in game two?). Gardy needs to drill some things into these guys. This is why the Yankees go to the series every year and the Twins are one and done, not $130 million difference in their payrolls.

[muskiejoe]

Beautifully said.....

[SledNeck_X]

C'Mon, realize who the Twins played. The Yankees, their on field player payroll doesnt explain it all, just think of all the scouts they have , trainers , high tech equiptment. The twins were fighting an uphill battle from the begining. It was close, Im disappointed but I live in the real world. Playing the Yankees isnt like playing a bottom tier team like the Chi_sox or Detroit. Plus MLB wants to see Red Sox VS Yanks, and that might have had something to do with the outcome.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Seeing the Twins lose this one was tough for me. I've been a die hard fan since I stopped using diapers and I actually thought this might be the year they go all the way.

People can think/say what they want to about mistakes that were made, bad plays, weak division, etc. All I can say is thanks for another great season. It was fun, and I sure hope Terry Ryan can manage to keep this team together for a while. It's a pipe dream, I know. But hey, a guy can dream, can't he?

[pikehunter]

Juggs, I think your argument about fundamentals only supports the point that the Twins lost, in part, because of the payroll differences.
Young players make fundamental mistakes, especially in big games. The way you combat that is to stock your team with VETERAN players. The Yankees do that, and pay the price for it. The Twins bring up their own players and let them go when they reach the point that their talent has demanded increased pay.
To say the payroll didn't make a difference, but fundamentals did, is a bit like saying "The problem wasn't that I only paid $10 for this truck, it's that the motor quit on the way home after I bought it." You get what you pay for, and we didn't have enough this time around.
That said, there are a lot of what-ifs that could have turned this season around that maybe would have given us a better shot. As for me, I'll take my small-market team as-is. We can't do it like the Yankees do it, and I'm kinda glad we can't.
Go Twins!

[SledNeck_X]

Sierra isnt that good, he just had a clutch homer, Morneau has better regular season #s than Sierra in about the same # of ABs. What the Twins need is a Solid 3rd Starter for the 05 season. Can Silva do it? It all depends if the Twins defense can play soild behind him and he lucks out and gets ground balls. The whole Minneapolis media expects Jaque Jones to be gone, and Kubel to Start in his place, which wouldnt be terrible, as long as him and Lew Ford switch off. Well atleast we have the Vikes and T wolves in the offseason, glad I dont live in Chicago, LOL.

[genegodawa]

Just heard 8 Million Chicagoans echo that sentiment.

[juggs]

Fundamentals have little if anything to do with payroll. I learned the fundamentals of the game in little league without earning much. OK, without earing anything. If you're telling me the players that make more money should be more fundamentally sound, I'm telling you you have low standards for Major League players. In fact, the less your talent, the better fundamentals you better have. You're going to need them. Like, against better teams that can get by without doing everything text book, like the Yankees. Rodriguez didn't steal off Borders, he stole off Lohse. Borders didn't even get a throw off. It's inexcusable to ignore the go ahead run at second base with less than two outs. Even the coaching staff said they were trying to get Borders' attention but he didn't hear them. No matter, Lohse should be looking him back just out of necessity. Sure it was a heads up play by Rodriguez but it could have been avoided--easily. The argument that we needed older, veteran players doesn't stand either in the face of the wild pitch. Borders is a 41-year old catcher who should know better than anyone that when the pitch is in the dirt and the winning run is on third base, you'd better block that baby. He's been catching for a million years. He didn't even move over and drop down--just a meager backhand stab. I doubt his salary had anything to do with his effort. If winning a playoff series against the Yankees (or anyone else for that matter) isn't incentive enough to do the job right, what is? Sure the Yankees have better players. But the fact remains the Twins could have won this thing if they had played better. Not better as in exceeding their ability but better as in playing the game rightly. Why do I keep hearing a voice in the back of my head saying, "TK's teams would never have lost this way"? Maybe that's the difference between 1987 and 1991 and the past three years.

[pikehunter]

Juggs,
I'm not saying players play better fundamentally because they get paid more. I'm saying they get paid more BECAUSE they play better fundamentally.
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will agree that fundamental mistakes cost the Twins the series, though. Young players make mistakes.
At the same time, this team was solid all year long in that category, comparitively, compared to alot of teams. But I also think that great teams make good teams look bad.
Good point about Borders, but I wouldn't group him in that category I was shooting for. I should have said "quality veteran."
Anyway, you may be right that a TK team would not have lost in the playoffs this way. But there is NO way TK would have led this club to the playoffs the past three years either.

[The Grebe]

Ah, it was a let down! Not for long mind you, but a let down none the less!

Some of it was the players fault, but the Twins coaching sucked if you ask me. These guys don't steal on their own, they get signals on when, or when not to go.

Same as positioning in the field, they just don't go wherever they want, they are stationed, for the most part, by the coaches.

What to swing at, when to bunt, what kind of pitch they are apt to get, all kinds of stuff.

Silva had been getting hit all season, but alot of the balls were grounders, playable balls. The Yankees get 5 hits in a row and
our fielders missed everyone of them, why?
Certainly not because they are bad ball players, they were delegated to the wrong spots for the batters.

Ah, I better shut up, the longer I go, the more I feel the disappointment comming back.

I'll be there again in the spring!

[Mudcutter]

Fundamentals??? Look at errors committed during the season. I think the Twins were 2nd behind the Mariners. A-rod running to steal 3rd??? Great play. He had 27-28 SB during the season. A no brainer agst Borders who is washed up. He thinks twice about stealing agst Blanco or Maurer, but Borders??? Also, look who was pitching--- Lohse in a closer roll. The Twins got beat by a superior team, period. But they would have forced a a game 5 ( and I think gave the Yanks all the wanted) without a mistake pitch by Rincon. I'll take that every year, especially since we have 1/3 their payroll. What's the pale sox payroll by the way???
Think about this;
how good would the Twins be with Sierra and Matsui on their side?????
Think about it
Stewart-Koskie-Hunter-Matsui-Sierra-Morneau-Maurer,Rivas,Guzman.

Game Over- I'll take that lineup agst any. Except for of course the current Yanks.

[juggs]

My point about the fundamentals of the game as they relate to salary is that this is big league baseball. Fundamentals should be a given no matter how much you make. Lohse learned how to hold runners on long before he got to the bigs. Same thing with Borders blocking pitches in the dirt. I always thought that differences in salary came about due to differences in talent, fundamentals not being a talent issue. I still don't believe the Twins lost the series because of payroll discrepency. They lost because they didn't play sound baseball.

[IFallsRon]

Jones made $4,350,000 for about 150 games this season. Hard to figure how Terry Ryan would spend that kind of money on a very average player.

Blanco, Henry $ 750,000
Cuddyer, Michael $ 307,500
Guzman, Cristian $ 3,725,000
Hunter, Torii $ 6,500,000
Jones, Jacque $ 4,350,000
Koskie, Corey $ 4,500,000
Lecroy, Matt $ 340,000
Lohse, Kyle $ 395,000
Mauer, Joe $ 300,000
Mays, Joe $ 5,750,000
Mientkiewicz, Doug $ 2,800,000
Nathan, Joe $ 440,000
Offerman, Jose $ 500,000
Punto, Nick $ 307,500
Radke, Brad $ 10,750,000
Rincon , Juan $ 330,000
Rivas, Luis $ 1,500,000
Roa, Joe $ 320,000
Romero, JC $ 820,000
Ryan, Michael $ 305,000
Santana, Johan $ 1,600,000
Silva, Carlos $ 340,000
Stewart, Shannon $ 5,500,000

[honker23]

I think Pikehunter is on track.
If you look through the lineup, Hunter and Morneau are the only players I'd consider taking over their counterparts in the Yankee lineup. We have an inferior team, that HAD to play PERFECT baseball over a 5 game series to win. A seven game series would've been even more difficult.

The "fundamental" mistakes separate players that are all-stars and average. Most of mistakes are mental, and veteran all-stars that have played 35-50 play-off games stay in the moment and make plays. Look at the difference between Koskie and Kubel. Kubel looked scared/excited/nervous/blind in that big at bat. Koskie was calm and focused. Not to mention the differnce between Jeter and Kubel.

The point about positioning the infielders is asking a little much as well. They hit 5 seeing eye dogs through the infield. It's part of baseball.

We could second guess until next year, but the fact is if Gardy had Gordon and Rivera with Arod, Jeter, Sheff, Matsui, Posada, Williams, etc....he couldn't make a mistake, because every move involves an all-star for an all star.

[The Grebe]

All the ball players make mistakes, even the Yankees, Jeter, Lofton, Matsui, Shefield, all of them at one time or another.

Comparing Kubel to Jeters, in any light, it just is'nt gonna happen! Kubel looked scared alright and looked bad at the plate, but I think the coach could have found a better spot to use him, then where he did, talk about pressure on a young play!

Talking of Jeter, he got fanned 4 times in one game and made some errors to, I'm sure he knows the fundamentals?

I still think the coaching left alot to be desired...some of that stuff was crazy!

The Twins (For a team that supposedly was'nt playing fundamental baseball) sure duked it out with the Yankees, right up to and beyond the 9th innings and it usually came down to one at bat, or one Twins coaching decision....is that saying that the Yankees are that lousy that a team that is low budget and fundamentally unsound can run with them step for step?

No, not in my opinion, it says that the Twins are a good team that can play with the best and on a given day beat them on their own ground.

There were numerous coaching errors made, big time, arrows shot from the bow, that can't be called back!

How many times will they get the opportunity for post season play, before they have to start rebuilding the team again? Gardy and the rest of the coaching staff have to get busy! Opportunities have come and gone these past several seasons!

[IFallsRon]

It's not unusual for a team to play to the level of its competition. The Yankees played down to the Twins' level likely feeling that it would take a superior Twins effort to beat them.

No one has ever called Sheffield and Matsui great outfielders and Williams has seen his best days but what they've done at the plate on a consistent basis makes the difference.

TK always said that you can't guage how a player will bat until he's had at least 1,000 at-bats.

[pikehunter]

Surely the Twins could have beat the Yankees, but they were definitely at a disadvantage. People seem to forget that when they signed A-Rod folks were talking about how this could be the best offensive team ever. Ever! And we hung in there with them. I'll definitely remember that series as much closer then 3-1 and it could have gone either way.
By the way, I was at Game 3, and I've gotta give Silva a bit of credit. The Yankees didn't hit a single ball hard off him until he tired late in his stretch of the game. All the hits in the big inning were dribblers through the infield.

I'm already looking toward next year, but it doesn't look so good for keeping the squad together. It's always fun to watch new guys in the spring and follow them as they try to make an impact, but it looks like this team, as we know it, might get broken up - that's what made this lost series sting a little more.
Too bad, but maybe we can catch lighting in a bottle again with a couple farmhands.

Go Twins!!