What's up with folks targeting closed spieces

[PierBridge]

Quote:

To reinhard: I would still like to see ONE example of someone actually being found guilty of targeting a fish out of season without having a fish in possession.

Well there ya go we already have a catch and release season if that's what you think is/has been going on. So go for it guys target out of season fish all you want just release them all and if you do get busted go to court and like all the arm-chair lawyers in here have told you there is no way you could lose the case.

Personally, I have no doubt it's happened but I'd imagine for the most part the CO would try to educate the person first if he happened upon a situation where a person was violating state fish and game laws in his opinion.

On a side note you guys are Nut's if you think for a second that you would have any chance to win in Court if you were cited by Law Enforcement for illegally targeting fish out of season. It's going to be your word against a CO's and you will lose 100 percent of the time in an instance like this.

[DTro]

<---Nuts

[Shack]

Quote:

In the first two weeks of the season, anglers catch about 40 percent of the 3 to 4 million walleyes harvested in a typical year.

This was written and posted on the MN DNR website as stated above (the link is provided in my post also). It means what it says to me, I cannot rule out or in that this DNR posting is correct or not. Possibly missed worded entirely or even bogus, but only ruling off of the fact it is being displayed right on the MN DNR's Minnesota Opener main webpage. My take is that the "anglers catch" is not included or associated with fish being caught and released. I "assume" the wording is in the sense of catch (only) and the 40% is just that, 40% of the total overall harvest of MN walleyes per calendar year. Which are 3 to 4 million walleyes harvested and this kept fish? How the DNR gets to that total and the 40% I have no clue but they are most defiantly busy lakes are busy during this time and anglers avoid the "Opener" for a reason.

Looking through some of my e-mails I sent last year and in 2009, the main subject and reference I used back in 2009 with my e-mails sent to the DNR was Mississippi River's Pool 2 in downtown Mpls/St. Paul, down to Hastings. I did not use them but even the Miss. Pools south could be brought into the mix, but pre/during/post prime walleye spawn time these locations are the "Go To" locations for anglers because of the Catch & Release ONLY season year round and pool 4 and south you can even keep walleyes (Red Wing area south). Besides Lake of the Woods, the only other spot I know of that I can put on a white Mister Twister or jig and fathead and actually bet money catching a walleye, let alone a trophy or a whole bunch of them, is right in downtown St. Paul on Pool 2.

Now! For this to be used to debunk the whole "protect the spawn" theory, you would need to know or have the actual figure for the percentage for the existing naturally reproducing lakes, rivers and streams left Minnesota. I did not dig much, but this can be of help with getting started at finding out and gaining an idea of how many lakes rely on DNR rearing ponds and stock taken from lakes that naturally reproduce.:

"If you took those 1,000 stocked lakes out of the equation, it would have a huge impact on anglers," he said. "People don't understand that many of the Brainerd lakes, for instance, have nice sandy beaches for swimmers, but not good habitat for walleye spawning. Stocking puts walleyes in many lakes in some of the state's most heavily fished areas."

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/mayjun11/walleye.html

If these fish are so precious and delicate that they need protection from anglers when spawning, then why is Pool 2 considered a Minnesota Walleye Treasure in the eyes of the MN DNR. This body of water is subjected year after year to heavy fishing pressure by anglers busting at the seams to get out on open water that come from all over the state(s) (much different the pounding of cabin owners, renters and locals. You still have them on Pool 2 but we call them home owners. ). Yet Pool 2 is renowned as a World Class fishery?

The straw-man, grass roots, "need to protect our spawning walleyes" campaign is honestly IMO based on hearsay, he said/she said and the "That is what I heard" basis. Nothing wrong with this and it is a good stance IMHO to have for the sport in general. But much as those who knew for sure the earth were flat, not everything used to make a point is indeed true or fact.

Musky and trout are primarily stocked as well, so this begs the question of "Where the Spawn at"?

Hate to say it but the opener maybe be just good for many reasons other than the one anglers have come to know and accept.

[Shack]

Well there ya go we already have a catch and release season if that's what you think is/has been going on. So go for it guys target out of season fish all you want just release them all and if you do get busted go to court and like all the arm-chair lawyers in here have told you there is no way you could lose the case.

Personally, I have no doubt it's happened but I'd imagine for the most part the CO would try to educate the person first if he happened upon a situation where a person was violating state fish and game laws in his opinion.

On a side note you guys are Nut's if you think for a second that you would have any chance to win in Court if you were cited by Law Enforcement for illegally targeting fish out of season. It's going to be your word against a CO's and you will lose 100 percent of the time in an instance like this.

As a person who has represented himself, pleads not guilty and won against a citation issued for speeding, it can be done BUT only on luck and even then you would wonder years later how you were able to win. For me all it took was asking the officer one question while on the stand and under oath he did not have an answer for and should have recorded. I still have no idea how I came up with it on the spot, but all I know is "if" you win solely involving yourself and your smile, do not try it a second time.

If a CO or sheriff deep down inside feels you were purposely violating a MN game regulation, went to the trouble of issuing a citation, chances are it is going to be a tough battle. One you will need a lawyer for and take time off work to get corrected.

I think vice versa for the issuing officer. If there would be a time he is subject to questioning and possibly being called "wrong" officially and legally, fishing out of season ticket would be involved. Then again they are sworn to uphold the law, which differs from officer and officer. The law is there to teach society so in a sense by teaching rather than ticking the officer is upholding the law?

Too much of a hassle for me and my target species during this time are year round catch so does not matter much either. I have had 0 problems in this department over the years.

[TooTallTom]

Right. At this point in time, our discussion basically boils down to our opinions. That's perfectly fine, but not very convincing for either side of the discussion. While I think I'm right and you're not, you think the opposite. That's why we're now on Page 4 of the discussion.

Like I've said before (or maybe not, but here it is) I'm open to being convinced by the results of an actual study by professionals from government or academia on the impact on the fishery as a whole of a year-round season. No offense to anyone else on the board, but a bunch of arm-chair jockeys from the internets aren't really all that convincing to me, and I'm sure I'm not all that convincing to you folks, either. I mean, really, I shouldn't be.

[TooTallTom]

As a person who has represented himself, pleads not guilty and won against a citation issued for speeding, it can be done BUT only on luck and even then you would wonder years later how you were able to win. For me all it took was asking the officer one question while on the stand and under oath he did not have an answer for and should have recorded. I still have no idea how I came up with it on the spot, but all I know is "if" you win solely involving yourself and your smile, do not try it a second time.

Sounds like there's a story there. Care to share?

[Shack]

+1 TooTallTom and I am never trying to convince anyone of anything. That is just stupid and silly thinking. I will dig in and change it up because I think it is lame to get “personal” with my posting and unbecoming. I just like sharing what I have found since those days I fully thought the opener was solesly put on and existed for the protection of the spawning walleye.

Quote:

Like I've said before (or maybe not, but here it is) I'm open to being convinced by the results of an actual study by professionals from government or academia on the impact on the fishery as a whole of a year-round season. No offense to anyone else on the board, but a bunch of arm-chair jockeys from the internets aren't really all that convincing to me, and I'm sure I'm not all that convincing to you folks, either. I mean, really, I shouldn't be.

+1 again dude. I encourage this constantly and totally, but when bringing my idea into the mix against those who are "dug in" most time people are not as open minded as you and I. Then they are still not convinced even after valid questions, studies and proof are presented (via it be proof of no proof, etc...). YET they never really seem to bring anything forward themselves? I am wrong every day, even just 15 minutes ago, but strive to get to the bottom if I really do not know and think I know. What I have found is people will purposely "know" and have no change in their minds out of spite (on-line). So this malarkey defaults all this back to just opinion and adult on-line play time for us all. Thus I just bring forward and those who choose to use what I have found can either take it or leave it as they may. We watch this pendulum swing daily down in the Outdoor Discussion forum 24/7, 360 days a season.

Quote:

but a bunch of arm-chair jockeys from the internets aren't really all that convincing to me

The power of Google, Dawg!

[Shack]

Quote:

Sounds like there's a story there. Care to share?

Sure. All it took was asking the officer at the right moment and in the correct fashion on the date of the offense if it was sunny or overcast. By a twist of fate he could not recall and admitted it right on the stand. Well this was a good portion of the reasoning as to why I was pulled over. All I had to do was take the stand and the judge asked if I was speeding or not, I said "no your honor I was not" and the ticket was dismissed. I honestly was not speeding and this was a huge factor. I would not have attempted it and succeeded if it were not the case.

[TooTallTom]

Interesting. I guess it's easier to know what to note after the question's been asked. Good for you sticking up when you were in the right. Thanks for sharing.

[Chad_Fish]

Just my opinion on the bass season that opens on the 28th. On that date throughout the state the majority of the fish will still be pre spawn or still up on beds. So what is the point of having a closed season March - May and then open the season during the spawn? And to continue with tradition because of the money that opening weekend generates is just ridiculous considering the amount of money that is lost while the season is closed. So my question is what are we protecting or gaining?

[Deitz Dittrich]

Chadfish-- for the most part by the time bass season opens they are done or mostly done. This season is abnormal. We may see a hurt year class this year.. then again, we may not.

[Chad_Fish]

Deitz I do agree that this season is abnormal. But even on normal years you can still find spawn and pre spawn fish into the middle of June on most minnesota lakes.

[Ed Carlson]

Interesting case history of "intent to target a species out of season".

Back when MN and ND had contrary ideas on the Red River....and this went on for a few years, MN was being a pain on MN anglers fishing the Red when MN said they couldn't. ND said it was open, MN said not for MN anglers it isn't...ND said buy a license and anyone could fish it, end of story...this set things up for a bit of a monkey cluster brew-ha-ha in court.

So many PO'd MN anglers tested this and bought ND state nonresident permits and fished the Red anyway, even when they were told they could not do so by MN. Open in ND, closed in MN OK. It was a nutty situation....even if you buy a non-res liscence...silly as heck right?

Well citations were quickly issued for intensionally fishing out of season by MN Co's. Most didn't hold up but a couple interesting cases did get ruled against the anglers in court.

Cases where a CO caught anglers taking pictures of the big fish and measuring them before release, all lost in court. They ruled against the anglers.

The reasoning being they intensionally were fishing for them and they did not immediately release the fish.

The other cases where the anglers released the fish and showed no hesitation to do so, got tossed. By taking pictures they argued they were showing intent to target the species. That was the point that caught up to them in court.

Those days are gone now and the CO's and all us border fishing anglers are pleased they are because it was a nightmare to enforce.

[RumRiverRat]

Chadfish-- for the most part by the time bass season opens they are done or mostly done. This season is abnormal. We may see a hurt year class this year.. then again, we may not.

What about in states where can fish year round for Bass?

What about the Bassmaster Elite Series showing guys pulling monster females off beds, you would think they that a series like that would not want to promote that type of fishing.

[pulleye16]

Shack-

Thanks for digging into this more and your points are taken with praise. I still feel that targeting fish during spawning is still not something we should change. I understand that times/dates and fish can and will still be spawning during fishing dates but this still allows for spawning when they are protected as well.

As for your research on pool 2...it's tough to argue and again great points. Some would think though that some lakes/rivers offer a better fishery in general and are able to withstand harder punishment. small lakes with distinct spawning areas would be targeted hard.

As for lakes where no or little reproduction is found...once again it's hard to argue survival rates with CPR but again, these fish can easily be targeted on small breeding areas during peak spawn (yes- I'm aware it can happen during open season as well) but it does give them time to spawn (even if they have low rates) and allow the fish to regain their weight and health.

Shack- again thanks for some good info and I'd be less furious if changes where made....I'd just hate to see a post on here "Hey the fish are in full spawn on the flats on Round lake" and see everyone and their cousin out hitting up those fish (again, I'm aware this COULD happen now, but we do have a buffering time)!

[Shack]

pulleye, just for the record I am Pro-Closed season and keeping the current Opener as it is. First and foremost if the fishing closed season does anything it keeps the divorce rate lower in Minnesota and some kids get to see dad and mom for a couple months/weeks when they cannot fish. Then of course the Opener is one of the times fathers, mothers, sons and daughters get to share a cabin together and create memories.

Dropping the MN Fishing Opener would be like canceling Christmas. Just too much fun and good times to be had. It also helps with getting those buddies out fishing who shutdown during summer and ice seasons because of too many irons in the fire. Plus some of my fondest fishing memories as a younger guy and when I was kid are wrapped around the Opener. Save the Opener!

[grab the net]

Particularly SM bass. No problem finding them on beds after the bass opener. Yet, a CR season is in place after mid September to protect them in their wintering grounds.

[Fowlmouth]

I didn't take the time to read through this whole thread but a simple answer to why people target fish out of season is a simple answer. People are ignorant and think it's all about them and they can do whatever they want. Period.

[fishergurl]

Beating a Dead Horse! This topic will never go away, and their will always be idiots breaking the laws!

[CANOPY SAM]

I wonder if a catch and release season wouldn't become somewhat of an enforcement nightmare? I mean, we already have a DNR that's stretched pretty thin. With a "open" catch and release season we'd have boats and anglers on the lakes and rivers all over our state all year round.

I think, and again it's just one guys opinion, that the closed season's are designed to protect particular species during times of increased vulnerability. That's why we periodically see "closures" on the weekend of opener where walleyes are still mid-spawn in certain areas or popular bodies of water.

Even if mortality is low in early season, cold water situations, there's little doubt that added pressure on spawning fish cannot be beneficial to a successful spawn.

I rescind my earlier statement about the CPR comment. I "thought" this was not allowed, and yes, I have photographed a large walleye I caught while fishing for suckers in early season. My bad.

[Ed Carlson]

If Closed Seasons were strictly designed to limit angling mortality during high stress times in order to protect vulnerable species, they would close walleye for deep water fishing. More mortality accrues there than at any time, or place.

But that would impact tourism, so that will not happen either.

[reddog]

The two states I fish exclusively, both have continuous open seasons for walleyes. (Iowa and South Dakota), although Iowa has 3 lakes that have a closed season not to protect the spawning fish, but just to have an opener at the Iowa Great Lakes, like Minnesota. (and it is a huge success every year) There is some merit in closing the 3 lakes at the time of hatchery operations, or there would continously be problems between anglers and gill netting operations at night.(trolling plugs into net sets)

I grew up in SW Minnesota, and have always wondered why the powers that be, couldnt leave the season open on some (or all) of the rivers state wide that never see any fishing pressure during the open season. Rivers that I know of, offhand that would hold walleyes and northerns, would be the Split rock, Rock, and Des moines in Rock and Jackson county. Im sure there are many, many more statewide, that could let an avid angler fish, and possibly eliminate some of the pressure on traditional lakes when the season opens.

There is incredible walleye fishing that could occur in these obscure streams, that would have no impact on the quality of fishing statewide.