Salt in lakes

[Tom7227]

A short time ago there was a debate on how to get ice houses free if iced in. Some suggested using salt. Comments were written to the effect of 'what's the difference.' The following is from Thursday's Tribune and can be found at http://www.startribune.com/local/118547564.html

Road salt turning Twin Cities lakes into dead seas

By JOSEPHINE MARCOTTY, Star Tribune

Last update: March 23, 2011 - 10:39 PM

The sound of water gurgling through storm sewers is the promise of a spring that's been a long time coming.

But it's also the sound of a toxic legacy that for decades has been quietly building in lakes and streams around the Twin Cities -- road salt.

The fish, bugs and other wildlife that live in the lakes pay a price for winter traffic safety when the snow melts. This winter, the Pollution Control Agency (PCA) started a four-year project to figure out which Twin Cities' lakes hold too much chloride, a primary ingredient in salt, and what it will take to keep urban waters healthy.

But the far more difficult task will be changing long-held beliefs about what it means to be a good citizen in a northern city. After all, most people in Minnesota, from homeowners to city officials, feel pretty strongly about keeping the sidewalks and roads clear and safe in the winter -- even if it means putting down a lot more salt than is necessary.

"Folks who grow up in Minnesota have a clear idea of that expectation and responsibility," said Kristen Nelson, a sociology professor at the University of Minnesota who studies environmental behavior. "It takes on important symbolic connotations."

Shingle Creek, which flows under highways and behind shopping malls in the western suburbs, is a case in point. It's in one of the few watersheds where the salt load has been calculated. In theory, to get it back to healthy levels, the nine communities along its banks would have to cut salt use by a whopping 71 percent, according to a recent analysis by the Shingle Creek Watershed District.

"It won't be possible to reach that," said Diane Spector, water quality manager for the watershed district. "When your tradeoff is public safety, it's very difficult."

But it wasn't impossible for Prior Lake. That city, which has won national recognition for its success in reducing road salt use, puts down 60 percent less than it did just a few years ago, saving $50,000 to $60,000 per year.

"This has been a great balance," said Steve Albrecht, public works director for Prior Lake. "We can save taxpayer dollars and take care of the lakes" without reducing safety.

350,000 tons used each winter

Road salt use has been rising steadily for more than 20 years. Now, in an average winter, some 350,000 tons of salt are dropped on roads, sidewalks and parking lots in the Twin Cities metropolitan area, according to a recent study by engineers at the University of Minnesota. In part, that's because there are more roads. But it's also because 20 years ago, public works departments switched from a sand and salt mixture to pure salt. Sand clogged storm drains and caused its own pollution problems, while salt alone was more effective.

"We hit a stage where everyone thought more was better," said Brooke Asleson, head of the PCA's Twin Cities chloride-reduction project. "But you reach a point where you can keep adding more, but are not getting more. You are just throwing money down the storm drains."

And into the water. Where, surprisingly, it just stays.

Eric Novotny, one of the researchers on the university chloride study, found that 78 percent of the salt applied to roads stays in the water. Unlike some other pollutants, it does not flow to the Mississippi and down to the Gulf of Mexico. Instead, the denser, salty water sinks to the bottom of lakes and into groundwater, accumulating year after year.

It's not harmful to people, though in high enough concentrations it can make water taste bad. But lakes and streams can be severely damaged by high levels. Too much salt in the water dehydrates insects and other microscopic life at the bottom of the food chain, and some species of fish. It also affects plants that live in and alongside the water.

Brownie Lake, a small, deep lake in Minneapolis near Cedar Lake Parkway and Interstate 394, contains so much chloride that its top and bottom layers no longer mix, which is vital to a healthy lake. In part, it doesn't turn over because the lake is so deep relative to its surface area, and pollutants of all kinds flow down its steep banks. But salt has been collecting in its depths for years. Two meters below the surface, the water in Brownie contains virtually no oxygen, said Rachael Crabb, a water quality expert for the Minneapolis Parks Department, indicating there's not much life at the bottom.

"Whatever chloride has come into Brownie from 394 is still there, and it's going to say there," she said.

Prior Lake wanted to avoid that fate for the 14 lakes in the city, said Albrecht. Since 2000 the chloride levels in its lakes has doubled.

"If we didn't do something, eventually, we would get to a critical level," he said. "And there is no way to turn back." In recent years, the city bought new, high-tech salt trucks, and began making its own brine to apply to roads before a snowstorm. It also uses GPS units to precisely regulate exactly how much salt the trucks put down in any location.

[Swimmer]

Good article. You can't put an artificial input of 350,000 TONS of chlorides into a semi-closed system each year and not expect severe impacts -- especially as this stuff accumulates. This sounds like a very serious issue, especially for metro area lakes. Can we get by with 90% less salt? Let's say only placed on key intersections? It's gonna be a major task to convince the coddled that we need to do this.

[JbuZZo]

"A short time ago there was a debate on how to get ice houses free if iced in. Some suggested using salt. Comments were written to the effect of 'what's the difference.'"

I hear what you're saying but, your suggestion of using some softener salt to free a fish house and upwards of 350,000 tons of road salt used in the cities and the runoff that causes is not quite an apples for apples arguement.

I wouldn't however recommend someone use salt to free their house...double barrle shot gun would be adviseable in situations like that.

[fishfearme]

Ha ha, Brownie Lake has been dead for ever. Long before 394 was there. As far as I know that lake has always been brackish. As far as Shingle Creek I still catch fish from there and Im sure that gets a ton af salt.

[mtbucket]

Water softener salt, also called solar salt, is sodium chloride, and is still chloride. If chloride is bad for our waters, why would we want to intentionally introduce any of it to our waters? It all adds up and accumulates and doesn't go away.

It is illegal to intentionally deposit any salt upon or into MN wetlands or waters without a permit. I confirmed this with a MN DNR wetlands manager and a CO. No matter what logic is used to justify it, it is still illegal.

Some states are considering banning residential water softener sytems that use salt, due to the fact that the salt does end up in the surface and ground waters, and does not just go away. None have passed that legislation, yet.

Salt used to free a fish house does not disappear once the house is free and removed. It can create an area of weaker ice that may be a hazard until the ice sheet melts completely.

[Swimmer]

Water softener salt, also called solar salt, is sodium chloride, and is still chloride. If chloride is bad for our waters, why would we want to intentionally introduce any of it to our waters? It all adds up and accumulates and doesn't go away.

It is illegal to intentionally deposit any salt upon or into MN wetlands or waters without a permit. I confirmed this with a MN DNR wetlands manager and a CO. No matter what logic is used to justify it, it is still illegal.

Some states are considering banning residential water softener sytems that use salt, due to the fact that the salt does end up in the surface and ground waters, and does not just go away. None have passed that legislation, yet.

Salt used to free a fish house does not disappear once the house is free and removed. It can create an area of weaker ice that may be a hazard until the ice sheet melts completely.

Common sense. Even though I doubt a little solar salt would have an impact (relative to road salt), find another way to free your shack...it's the law. Plus, I never thought about creating weak spots that could be a hazard.

[mtbucket]

The CO that I spoke with regarding salt also told me about an issue that they had with people using a little antifreeze solution to keep their holes from freezing over. Apparently they didn't think that the small amount that they used would have a negative impact, compared to all the chemicals that inadvertantly leaked from vehicles on the ice and and into storm drains which emptied into the waters. There was a group that did this on a regular basis and advocated the practice to others. It took a number of fines to quell the practice.

I was once checked by a CO who saw me pouring water on the ice so that I could use my flasher to get a depth reading through the ice. He flew up out of nowhere on a snowmobile to see if I was actually using windshield washer solution instead of water. He said that he had seen and ticketed people for using windshield washer solution because it did not freeze. They also rationalized it in a manner similar to the folks with the great idea to keep their holes from freezing.

People often rationalize and justify their questionable choices. They are often the quickest and the loudest to defend these choices. It does not make them right, it just makes them part of the problem.

[tunrevir]

On my home water of Forest Lake the city and the lake association implemented a program to reduce runoff and road chemicals from getting into the lake. Part of what they did was install garden areas at the ends of the roads to help filter storm water runoff. The access areas where this was done still allows for a snowmobile or wheeler to get through (when not plowed in) but also puts the other accesses into a more higher use category. Salt going into the system is definately an issue but I see the green fertilized yards running right to the waters edge on most lakes as more of a threat then the salt. The lake association here in Flake also has encouraged folks to plant native vegetation and create a buffer zone to reduce chemical runoff into the lake but it is an uphill battle when it comes to people that live at the waters edge.

Tunrevir~

[LightningBG]

You do realize that we are talking about 700,000,000 lbs (thats 700 Million) pounds for the metro vs. a 50lb bag or less to get a house up. And that's just for the roads, that doesn't include parking lots, driveways and sidewalks. Sure its adding to the problem, but we're talking some major differences here.

Personally I put down salt more often than its needed at my commercial property, because everyone is looking to sue, while they are walking around in unsuitable footwear. And the city rides my A$$ for getting the sidewalks cleared ASAP (most of the time before they even have the road plowed) And I know that's going in a river, because I can see a river from my office, but that's what the city wants.

[My_Key]

Solar salt is simply salt that is produced by the natural evaporation of seawater. And while the process itself is efficient with natural resources the end product, salt is in fact harmful to freshwater bodies. Salt is made up of sodium and chloride ions and is a common product used for food to winter road maintenance so it may appear to be a harmless substance, but at high concentrations the chloride portion of the salt is toxic to aquatic organisms. For this reason the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency has a water quality standard (minimum level acceptable in waters) for chloride in place to protect aquatic life. We do have several waters in the Twin Cities that are already exceeding the chloride standard, primarily due to the application of road salt therefore road authorities in the Twin Cities, in particular Mn/DOT, are putting forward significant effort to minimize the amount of road salt applied to our streets. Chloride is of particular concern in lakes as once it is in the water there is no feasible way to remove it from the lake and it will not breakdown on its own ever. Even at lower concentrations, chloride can have a negative impact on the fish and macroinvertebrates community, diversity and their reproduction. So salt should never be directly applied to a lake as it is harmful (and potentially toxic) to the fish, and it could also be considered an illegal discharge to waters of the state.

This is from an email I received a while ago. Thought this might help clarify a few things.

[mtbucket]

If I were to keep just a couple of crappies over the limit, or just one big female walleye out of season, it really wouldn't have a big impact in light of the huge numbers of fish that are kept legally every season.

If I were to shoot just one deer out of season, it really is insignificant compared to the number that are killed by cars, predators or weather during the off season.

If I bag just one pheasant hen, it really would not make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

If I were to leave one beer can, propane bottle or snack bag on the ice, it wouldn't contribute much to the litter problem.

If were to move a spear house and neglect to mark the old hole, it really wouldn't add much danger in light of all of the other potential hazards on the ice.

These things are just wrong and/or illegal, even though some people can try to rationalize them.

It has to start somewhere. As responsible and ethical sportsmen, we need to try to be the best possible stewards of our resources, and at least not inflict any intentional damage.

[TooTallTom]

mtbucket, very well put.

[CAMAN]

Does this mean we can start stocking sharks into area lakes? Might cut down on those pesky water-skiers.

[TooTallTom]

Does this mean we can start stocking sharks into area lakes? Might cut down on those pesky water-skiers.

Will a shark fit through an 8" hole, or should I upgrade to a 10" auger? Also, what kind of rod do you recommend? I'd also like to be able to go after some crappie/ pan fish with it...

[Ebiz]

Should I buy a Chevy or a Vexilar?

[CAMAN]

Will a shark fit through an 8" hole, or should I upgrade to a 10" auger? Also, what kind of rod do you recommend? I'd also like to be able to go after some crappie/ pan fish with it...

You'll want to look into one of the new 24"er's and a large gaff. I'd recommend a Thorne Bros Sweet Pea for a good multi species shark/panfish rod.

[TooTallTom]

Okay, so that's a Chevy auger and a Thorne Bros. rod, any bait recommendations? I heard people use water skiers. Any luck with those? Do they keep over the winter?

[FYGR8]

If we could get back to driving on snow covered roads like years ago the problem would be solved. The bar has been raised to a standard that most drivers need a clean,ice free roadway after every skiff of snow. I see it first hand everyday as an employee doing the application. Time to slow down and drive according to conditions. Bring back the "good wheel tracks" as a sufficient roadway for winter driving.

[daylate]

Am I the only one who remembers snow tires?

Can you still get snow tires?

People are in too big of a hurry. If they don't have clean roads some drivers go just as fast.

[Ed Carlson]

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[mtbucket]

Traditional snow tires are still made, and there are also high tech winter tires that combine a lower durometer rubber compound with additional siping that are even more effective on both ice and snow. The main downside is that they wear quickly in warmer temps, requiring that they not be used in summer. I use these on my vehicles in the winter and they provide vastly better starting and stopping characteristics along with superior control on ice and snow.

The beet juice that Ed's post refers to is a far superior product, but has a higher cost than chloride products. It is still a much better alternative from an environmental standpoint, and as the brochure indicates it is much less corosive to vehicle and bridge metal components. Most ag dealers now use this to fill tractor tires for ballast instead of chloride. It is actually heavier than salt water and does not corrode the rims.

[mtbucket]

DNR and PCA regulations would not allow introduction of beet juice to the ice to free a fish house that had froze in, in case anyone was wondering.

[Ed Carlson]

LOL!...I was waiting for that.

What if we loaded some 30-O-6 rounds with Beet Juice, and shot it at the house...if that still kewl?

[slipperybob]

What about all those aquatic parks and swimming pools?

[LightningBG]

If I were to keep just a couple of crappies over the limit, or just one big female walleye out of season, it really wouldn't have a big impact in light of the huge numbers of fish that are kept legally every season.

If I were to shoot just one deer out of season, it really is insignificant compared to the number that are killed by cars, predators or weather during the off season.

If I bag just one pheasant hen, it really would not make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

If I were to leave one beer can, propane bottle or snack bag on the ice, it wouldn't contribute much to the litter problem.

If were to move a spear house and neglect to mark the old hole, it really wouldn't add much danger in light of all of the other potential hazards on the ice.

These things are just wrong and/or illegal, even though some people can try to rationalize them.

It has to start somewhere. As responsible and ethical sportsmen, we need to try to be the best possible stewards of our resources, and at least not inflict any intentional damage.

Most of those things are illegal though.

If you want to be a the most responsible and ethical, you better bust out the canoe, put away the motors, ditch the ATV or snowmobile for a new pair of boots and ride your bike to the lake.

Oh, and if you're going to drive your truck on the lake, make sure you wash it before you go out. But not near the edge of the lake because the salt will drain into the lake. but you also cant do it further away, because you will just pick up more salt before you get there. Quite the quandary.