changes in thought?

[matchset]

pops and i were talking about my grandpa (his dad) and how he used to bowhunt. a pioneer of the sport, he used to shoot archery with Zwickeys' dad back in '50s and he harvested many deer, some still on the wall today.

now that its 2011, have we adopted new ideas of what's ethical and not?

i remember gramps describing the strength it took to draw back a recurve....

and how a whitetail buck needed to be close in order to come home successful...

with that all said,

with todays equipment, hunters, and the dedication that many of us possess; is it ethical to take a 70+ yard shot at an antelope, mule deer?

i watched a hunting video last night, and a guy shot a 125'' buck at 51 yards.... that how this discussion all started...

[newfish]

To me it all depends on a few things. It mostly depends on how confident is the shooter. How many long distance shots does he take and stay within say a pie tin for a target size. The strength of the bow. If you have a 70 LBS draw weight or higher and can provide great power in your shot that is going to net a quick clean kill.

If you have a shooter that shoots consistently within a 40 yard range and then takes a 60 yard shot, then I would say they took an awful chance at wounding that deer and letting it die a slow horrible death. Unethical in my book. But if it is someone that does a lot of practice at longer ranges and shoots with in that range then why not. It is like the rifle hunter who is blazing away at deer at 400+ yards. Is that ethical? Have they practiced consistently shooting that far in all weather conditions? Sure the bullet can reach out there but to make a clean kill is where it matters.

Just my two cents.

[sticknstring]

The equipment may be changing, but it's still relatively a close-encounter game. The founders of our sport flung arrows beyond 60 yard at critters with great frequency. My grandpa killed his caribou at 61 yds with his trusty Bear recurve, and thought nothing of it. Perhaps it's more ethical to take longer shots today because of the advacement in archery tackle. Making these shots are much easier. But targets and animals are not one of the same.

It comes down to how good of shot you are and the circumstances that happened during that particular hunt. Bigger game, relaxed animals, & confident shooting ability can all warrant longer shots. Would I ever shoot whitetail at 50 yds? Hard to say. In the woods, probably not. In an open field, with this head down, light breeze, I might think about it. To each their own.

[DonBo]

Every situation is different. Every hunter has his or her own comfortable shooting range. Todays equipment may allow us to take longer shots with better results than was the norm years ago, but the fact remains that most hunting shots still average 15 yards. Todays high-tech equipment has little to do with that.

[goblueM]

I don't think the ethics have changed at all - we still define what you are talking about as taking a high percentage shot, the distance is not relevant, only the consistent ability to make an accurate shot at that distance

[Bear55]

I think it does depend on the shooter, I have read about an olympic archer that has shot deer right around that 70 yard mark you mentioned. I think if you have incredible skills with the bow you shouldn't be looked down on for that, however I still don't think its a great idea even for them because so many things can go wrong at that range even under certain conditions. I guess I can't say I am for or against it but just be sure and know your effective range.

I don't remember who on these forums said this but it really hit home with me so I will steal their line. To me bowhunting is an up close personal experience and I really like the challenge of getting as close to a deer as possible. It might also have to do with the fact that I haven't hunted a field edge in 7 or 8 years and most places I hunt you can see let alone shoot past 20-25 yards anyway.

[Hoyt4]

Depends on what you practice at and what game you are hunting.

Deer I would say my max is going to be 50 yds.

If I'm elk hunting I would say 70.

Now I will shoot all summer and spring at long range. I do not take these shot all the time. My longest shot for a deer was 32yds most deer I have taken have been 10yds and under.I shot an elk at 65 yds pass through both lungs. All depends how much time ,practice. To me all my shots have been ethical.

[matchset]

i'll probably get heat for this....

but back in 2009, my great friend, his dad and i went to wyoming on a antelope hunt.

an hour out of the truck, ryan and i were doing a stalk up a drainage, unknowingly bumped a different group of goats and his dad made a clean kill on a great buck at 72 yards.

ryan made an exceptional shot on an book buck at 88 yards.

and on the last day of our hunt, i stalked the sage brush until i got to 97.5yd, drew back and centered my pin.

all in all, we harvested 3 bucks and 2 does in 2.5 days of hunting....

we're not olympic shooters, but rather avid bowhunters.

i heard once (whether its true or not) that the average P&Y buck is arrowed at 17.5 yards....

[Scoot]

i'll probably get heat for this....

You will and should get heat for that. It's one thing to be foolish enough to shoot at nearly 100 yards at a critter, but far more foolish to post it on the internet. My guess is that you'll get blasted for that and I believe you've got it coming.

[Scoot]

Deer I would say my max is going to be 50 yds.

If I'm elk hunting I would say 70.

I actually think you'd be better served to have a SHORTER max distance on elk than deer. Even though elk obviously have a bigger vitals area, they are big boned, tough critters. Arrows will lose KE downstream and will pack less punch, making it a lot tougher to pass through on an elk than a deer at a long distance.

[Scoot]

To me it all depends on a few things. It mostly depends on how confident is the shooter.

I totally disagree. I'm sure people will take issue with this, but I firmly believe confidence is misguided for many, many archers. I know some very confident archers who absolutely suck. They think they can make any and every shot and take amazingly stupid shots as a result. They also wound a lot of animals taking those shots.

Far more important than confidence is ability. Show me a guy who can put 5/6 arrows inside of a volleyball at a certain distance and I'll bet on him every time over the top of the confident guy at that distance. If you shoot with enough guys, you'll meet plenty of confident guys who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

[Scoot]

My brother is the best shot I've ever met. He regularly shoots 300 60x's and wins pretty much every archery tourney he enters. I've watched him take two shots that changed my thinking about this in a big way. Once he shot at a muley at 85 yards- a distance we ranged and he had a sliding sight to hold right on it. The animal was a little jumpy, but he took the shot. His shot was perfect- it hit right where the deer was when he let the arrow go. However, the deer had run at least five yards between the time he let the arrow go and when it got there.

Even worse was when he made a shot on an antelope at about the same distance. That poor bugger didn't get as far and was gut shot. We tracked it for miles and miles and finally lost it. I'm sure it died that night and we never recovered it.

The biggest problem with shooting long distances is that animals move and sometimes they move a lot. I regularly practice out to 100 yards. However, even though I can put most arrows inside of a pie plate at 100 yards, I'd never shoot even close to that far. I won't shoot past 60 yards, and even then, I'd have to have a completely unaware animal and conditions would have to be perfect. But... that's just me. I try like heck to not shoot over 40.

[Bear55]

I am not going to blast you matchset but I have to side with scoot on this one. You may be a great shot with your bow but at those distances but a lot can go wrong in a hurry, especially on a smaller target like an antelope. Maybe you had ideal conditions or maybe luck played a role with the animals you connected with but I can promise you at that range something will eventually go wrong and it's not going to be fun for you or the animal you are shooting at. No doubt things can and do go wrong at any distance when bowhunting but you are only increasing the odds of a miss or wound the further you stretch the field, and it has nothing to do with your skill as an archer or your ability to make a judgment call on the calmness of your target.

[newfish]

I agree with scoot on there a lot people who are confidence but can't hit anything. Those are the same type of people who set on their couch on Sunday and think they could play better than their favorite QB or defense:) What I meant is those that are confident and can back up their ability with skill. They practice and work hard it. With that being said taking long distance shots at a target is one thing. The target isn't going to be moving around or do something unexpected. The only large variable is weather you have to deal with. A stationary target is easier to hit than a moving one. With live game anything can happen. Something can spook them, they can decide to take a step or two and then your shot is completely off. It takes time for the arrow to reach its mark and the kinect energy the arrow will deliver at that long ranges starts to drop off.

Another question I have for those that have taken long shots, how much of your target is covered up by your sight when you are looking at those long distances? Could you clearly see the vitals area? Or was it a guess as to where you should shoot? If it was a guess then I would say it was an unethical shot with a bow for longer ranges. A lot can go wrong and you don't have the energy a rifle can deliver if your off by a small amount.

With all that being said the longest I would feel comfortable shooting is about 40 yards. The reason is my pins start to get to large on my target at 40 yards. Yes, I can still see the vitals zone, at that range, but I know a lot can go wrong if my form is slightly off. Things that can affect my shot is if it is windy out and the treestand is shaking, or I am nervous and shaking. I feel very confident with 0-30 yard ranges because that is mostly what I can consistently practice at home with during the offseason. I do practice at the 40-50 yard range too. At 40 i feel pretty good, but I would have to have pretty good conditions. At 50 yards due to how large my pins are I have to guess at where the center is on my target. I would not take a shot at that range on live game due to my personal ethics and my ability with my current gear. Plus, with my form at 50 yards the flaws start to come out and really affect my accuracy. For those that laugh at my ability go ahead, I know my limitations and I don't want to make a bad shot and wound an animal that I can't recover.

Good debate so far.

[Scoot]

For those that laugh at my ability go ahead, I know my limitations and I don't want to make a bad shot and wound an animal that I can't recover.

Laugh at that? Heck no, I commend you for knowing your limitations and sticking to them! No shame in having a good handle on what you can pull off and what you can't.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Matchset - I think the only dumb thing that you have done, is mention your decisions on the internet where people (who weren't there, and probably don't know your limitations) judge you.

Some of the most revered archers - for example Fred Bear - used to fling arrows at long ranges, with far less efficient equipment. I don't get the difference in the way people like you are viewed. For all I know, you may be a far superior archer to Fred Bear - I don't know either of you. I also know that every shot is different. A 70 yarder at a unknowing and calm elk can be an easier shot than a 20 yarder at a "wired" southern whitetail. But on the internet, all you see is a 70 yard shot v. a 20 yard shot.

The point of my rambling is simple. I can't accurately judge anyone on this board for the ethics of their shot decisions, because I was not there. But I can say that I think it may be foolish to tell people of your long range shooting exploits because it is easy for someone to judge you off the cuff based solely on the distance - whether it is fair or not. I also don't think its fair to promote, or seem to promote, long range shots to people who are not capable of making those shots ethically.

My two cents.

[matchset]

Don't worry guys; i know my limitations, even more so than some others.

i never did release an arrow at that buck. but 97.5 yards is quite a story.

i was hoping for a discussion, which i think we have accomplished that!

lots of mixed opinions but that makes life spicy!

[Powerstroke]

My first question is if you have "perfect conditions".....Then why not wait or move in for a closer shot?

If its not perfect conditions, then maybe you shouldn't take the shot.

If its your only shot? Only you can be the judge.

I've never hunted in a situation with my bow where I have a 40yd or greater shot. Its how I plan my spots. I can consistently hit and group at 60yds, but I consider that practice distance, not hunting. Only you can answer the question of the max distance. Technology is wonderful and will continue to advance, but physics is still the constant. Obey those rules and you will be successful.

[matchset]

your right powerstroke, physics is a constant. i do not know if there is such a thing as "perfect" conditions.

wary whitetails still seem to duck the string at even the closest distances.

i like what you said, obey the rules!

[Powerstroke]

One of my new favorite toys/tools is Ontarget Archery software. You see my review in the consumer reviews section.

One of the many features of this software is the ability to plug all of your bow's features into the program and it will provide you with the data about your bow's speed, energy and trajectory. This includes being able to see arrow drop and loss of kinetic energy at any distance. Knowing what your bow can do in its best conditions will help you evaluate how you should use it in even worse conditions.

I have no interest in the software other than sharing with people so they can become more educated archers. They offer free trials of the product for anyone who wants to check it out. I use it all the time just to tinker with and virtually test any changes I'm thinking about making.