Heart of Zone perspective Zone 3 4point legal buck

[someday]

I've been reading the posts on only shooting large bucks, and thought you might be interested in the perspective of someone who just hunted with the new 4points on one side law? My son and I farm in the middle of Zone3 and recently completed the 3B season. We hunt our own farm mostly standing corn fields. I still hunt the corn while my son waits on escape routes. One morning I found a blood trail and tracked it to a sleeping deer. I was shocked see it was still breathing and had fork horns. I went and got my son and showed him the deer and we decided to call the DNR to put the deer down. The CO. who came out a couple hours later was unable to get close to the deer though we must have been there for most of an hour. He said he had to leave and to just let the deer die on it's own. This made me mad so I called my legislature and ask if there was anything I could do? He said he'd had many complaints and gave me names of people and groups who were hoping to get a petition before the next Legislature. I am selective in what I shoot and usually choose a 2-3yr doe. Though my son has been shooting 8 point or larger bucks. one day when standing in the woods I saw saw a large and small deer coming toward me about 200 yards away. I was disappointed when I saw the large deer was a buck. Even though the buck did a quarter circle around me at about half speed coming as close as thirty feet I was never able to confirm it was a legal buck. thought its rack size suggested it would have been a 8 dressing about 180. This is not just about making sure bucks are legal, but that large does are not illegal bucks. The only methods of hunting that would work here anymore is ambushing a deer that has no clue its being hunted. or shoot it in the open with a scoped rifle witch is not a legal firearm here. This is just heresay but I heard of a guy who I was told shot 6 bucks during 3A and didn't tag any of them and a coon hunter who's dogs have found many dead or wounded deer most of the young bucks.

[Jameson]

Welcome the the forums Someday.

Thank-you for your report. Don't take this as a knock against you, I just like solving problems; Could you have gotten a hold of a minor who does not have to obey the APR rule to dispatch the deer?

[nonteepical]

unfortunatley we will hear alot of "heresay" and "a friend told me that" kind of stories, some true and most made up from people who don't like the new rules.

[someday]

I wish that is what we had done instead of having the game warden chased the deer all over the corn field. If this law is still in force next year maybe I'll just buy a minor a tag and have him around just in case something like this happens again.

[HandGunner]

the APR is going to be around for at least 3 more years from what i heard... yea its tuff on alot of us even when looking at an 8 point its still hard to tell if it does have 4 points on one side because of all the adrenalin and the excitement you get. i think you have a 50/50 shot at this kind of thing if you think its legal mine as well flip a coin even a decent 6 may look like an 8. all i can say is i was lucky to still be 17 this year other wise we would have ended up with one doe and one nubby equalling one deer worth of meat since we split half with my uncle. as for your issue the CO should have given you guys some kind of tag that would let you guys keep that deer something like a roadkill deer issue were it lets you keep the deer. i think the CO was just being lazy

[someday]

As to my last statement that I wish I had got a person 17 or under to put down the deer, I just found out from a friend that It would not be legal. In the eyes of the DNR the person who draws first blood even if illegally is the only one who can render aide or possess the animal.

[Jameson]

Unless your friend is the DNR I wouldn't put too much stock in what they say. Even if they are I would get a second opinion.

[someday]

Please do ask the DNR or whoever should know. My friend said that at one of the meetings the DNR held in Southeast the question was asked If you saw a 6 point buck with its guts shot out could you have a 17 year or younger shoot the deer they would not answer right away saying they would refer it on, later they said it was not legal because the deer belonged to the one who drew first blood. If you can get a different answer out of the DNR it would be great.

[Jameson]

huh. Well I thought it was in the regs somewhere that "he who tags it, gets it" if you know what I mean. Just reviewed the regs and didn't see it in there. Hopefully others will chime in with their experiences. Still though, what you heard is second hand, not directly from the DNR. Details can get lost in string communications.

[someday]

The only thing I can say first hand on something like this is I was at Farm Fest last Summer and the DNR had their Wall of Shame trailer just inside the gate. while I was looking at it the Officer who was manning it was excited that he might soon be getting the recorded 9 point taken illegally by Cannon Falls for his display. The rack as I understood was tied up in court. Apparently poaching a deer was not grounds for not benefiting from it financially.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I guess I must not "get" what this thread is steering towards? The title implies that this thread is meant to give some "perspective" on the new APR law in Zone 3. In that vein, what is the perspective being offered? Is the "perspective" being offered that we are supposed to sympathize with the mentality that this is a bad law because people are breaking it? That this is a bad law because it occasionally forces a person to pass up a shot at an animal that they cannot clearly identify? If that is the "perspective" that I am supposed sympathize with, well I simply can't do it.

I am not a big APR guy, but I firmly believe that these bits of "perspective" totally miss the boat. For one, we as licensees are expected to follow the game laws. Thus, shooting illegal bucks is just that, illegal. Because people are breaking the law is never a reason to make something legal. Should we advocate to make driving drunk legal because it is a hard law for some drinkers to follow? Obviously not. Second, one should always know if they are shooting at a legal animal. Identifying whether a buck has 4 points on one side is no different than identifying if a buck has 3" spikes which would have made it a legal buck prior to the new 4 point rule. Before one pulls the trigger, they need to know what they are pulling the trigger on. Really, nothing has changed in that sense, and in my opinion, I don't think that is too much to expect out of a hunter.

Finally, so as not to ignore the situation of coming upon a wounded animal that is not a legal animal to shoot, that is just the way it is. Again, it is no different than coming upon a wounded animal that you don't have a tag for. It is not legal to shoot it. Whether or not it is morally correct to dispatch a wounded animal for which you don't have a tag, that is up to each individual to decide - and to accept the consequences of their actions.

[zepman]

Nice post Northwoods...I agree completely!

[someday]

Ok! I'll try and clarify my perspective. Will the new law increase the number of large deer 150 class plus in zone 3 the answer is yes but not for the reason you might think. There are already significant numbers of good bucks 140 class and better in at least the southern half of zone 3. Most areas with good habitat have at least some super bucks 175 class. Local areas with large acreage of no hunting as with a large tree farm in central Wabasha County, or hunting leased land as in the southern counties have significant numbers of these bucks except that no one can access them unless you own land nearby. Most of the land owners by me who also hunt have been practicing a 8 point or larger shooter for along time. The real difference I see with this law is it very much complicates most hunters chosen method of hunting. Much of the hunting around here is done by multi-generational parties of the same family on there own land. This law makes deer drives almost impossible because you are talking moving targets and older family members with less than perfect eye sight. The reprisal I've been hearing most often is to join with the neighbors and limit access to family and close friends only. So now you have more big deer but unless there is pubic land nearby no access to them. Also as the number of big deer increase the areas leased for trophy hunting only will also increase.

Since this is a fishing web site let me try and explain it this way. Lets say instead of Zone 3 this was Mille Lacs. The Native Band and the State decided that to make needed money they would divide the lake into lots and sell exclusive fishing rights to them. The best structure would sell first for the most money to those who could make a profit from it and could afford to do so. Likely some poor fishing areas would not sell and remain public. Now what if the primary owners convinced the state that the slot should be no fish under 30" because that is what would make them the most money. If you fished the public waters and were able to find a fish chances are it would be over 30" the question is would it pay to have it mounted since every fish kept would have to be that long. And with more under 30" fished released won't there be more floating on the surface the same as more rotting deer left in the woods. From my perspective if you want to shoot a 175 class buck in Zone 3 in the not too distant future your chances are good but unless you already own land here you better start saving up your Money!

[96trigger]

Quote:

Local areas with large acreage of no hunting as with a large tree farm in central Wabasha County, or hunting leased land as in the southern counties have significant numbers of these bucks except that no one can access them unless you own land nearby.

In one breath, your talking about how the land is already leased up and hard to get on. In the next breath your talking about hard its going to be in the future.

Quote:

Much of the hunting around here is done by multi-generational parties of the same family on there own land.

Then you switch gears and talk about how the hunting is done mostly on private land within families.

So, do you think that all these multigenerational families are going to start leasing their land and turning away their families? I do not think that will happen. Might there be an increase in some leased land, yes, is it already happening without the APR, you bet. Hunting is a high profile, high dollar sport. The land that is going to get leased, will get leased regardless of APR or the # of bucks. I live in Wabasha, County, have all my life. I don't even know of which large tree farm you are talking about. For the past 10 years, there has been an increase in leased land, that is just a sign of the times.

Sounds like most of the landowners around you are already doing an 8 point or larger restriction without the state mandating it. I guess my question would be are you one of the owners that are not?

I can't tell if you are mad that you couldn't put that buck out of its misery, and that is too bad. Or if you just had a bad season and are venting your frustration.

We have to identify targets all the time. In the spring, turkeys need to be toms, pheasants have to be roosters, you are only aloud certain #s of ducks. We need to be able to identify what we shoot in all aspects. Sorry, I hunt in the heart of zone 3 also, always have, I don't have the issue with APR that you do.

[hockeybc69]

I am trying to sift out what the clear cliff notes version of the intent of this topic.

The only thing I can glean from your posts someday, is there is absolutely no factual data backing anything you have mentioned. Its all your gutfeel, what you think and what you hear from others.

Change is always hard to some degree. Seems you are frustrated with the change and simply venting.

[someday]

We have been practicing selective harvest for a long time. it must be ten years since we shot a buck less than 8 points. I try not to shoot bucks myself just try and put them in front of my son. Getting all the deer we need is not a challenge as they bed right here in the yard most evenings. If I am frustrated it is that there appears nothing else I could have legally done to euthanize the wounded deer. The thread is titled perspective to give my and my friends views as to why we believe this law is not a good idea. I am for selective harvest but not dictated by the state with no legal means to clean up someones accident or bad judgement and then give the meat to a food bank. As for identifying your target there is a big difference between the birds you mention and a one inch long antler on one side of a moving deer in cover. I am not convinced superman could do it with his X-ray vision and get it right every time. What if its a spike and Grandpa swears he saw a doe.

[Tom7227]

Unless your friend is the DNR I wouldn't put too much stock in what they say. Even if they are I would get a second opinion.

If you get an opinion from anyone with the DNR I would ask them to give you the citation to the rule or statute they are quoting. No offense to anyone but after 17 years as a prosecutor I'm not so sure that I would take as final any person in law enforcement's opinion on what the law is. Also I've seen to many 'quotes' on this HSOforum supposedly from a CO or a cop that I know from my experience is just plain incorrect. 'Show me the number' is my mantra.

[96trigger]

someday, thanks for clarifying. The hardest part about APR was not identifying mature bucks, it was making sure that the does didn't have antlers. This was very difficult at times especially under low light conditions. Deer can put their ears up and the whites of the ears will but mask the antlers.

I don't know what the solution is.

I really would like to see the state put a $50-$100 dollar fine on shooting small bucks, but let the people keep the deer and their dignity if it was an accident. When registering the deer, have it registered as an illegal mature buck, then the registrar gives you an envelope, and you send xx amount to the state. If it is in by a certain amount of time, no criminal action is taken.

I know that some people will argue the cost, but I think most law-abiding hunters would rather pay a small fine and have a clear conscience for making a mistake, than having to risk a ticket, their name in the paper, or doing something illegal, if there was an honest mistake.

This would also help with the high grade problem. If a 130 inch 6 pointer walks in front of me, I would have no problem taking him down and paying the fine. I don't think the problem is with APR, but how it is enforced.

[Jameson]

...The hardest part about APR was not identifying mature bucks, it was making sure that the does didn't have antlers. This was very difficult at times especially under low light conditions. Deer can put their ears up and the whites of the ears will but mask the antlers.

I don't know what the solution is....

Yes, that does seem to be the biggest problem that has come from the APR's this year. The past has shown that the majority of deer hunters harvest 1 deer. If we all have a buck and a doe permit in pocket it is not a problem. Also if we are allowed to buck cross-tag and have a member of our party willing to tag the spiker it also isn't a problem. The problem arises from making spikers (or other small bucks) illegal to shoot, and the problem grows by making buck-cross tagging illegal.

Everyone knows my solution....buck lottery. If a party decided to continue to hunt without a buck tag in their party and accidentally takes a spiker, than fine them. It gives a lot more leeway to the hunters, while doing more for the deer.

[bigbucks]

I especially agree with that last paragraph Northwoods.

Quote:

Finally, so as not to ignore the situation of coming upon a wounded animal that is not a legal animal to shoot, that is just the way it is. Again, it is no different than coming upon a wounded animal that you don't have a tag for. It is not legal to shoot it. Whether or not it is morally correct to dispatch a wounded animal for which you don't have a tag, that is up to each individual to decide - and to accept the consequences of their actions.

One thing that seems to be being indicated, that I see no proof of, is that the buck was originally shot illegally & left because it was misidentified as being a legal deer. Maybe I missed something, but who's to say this deer wasn't shot by a kid, who thought he missed or simply lost the trail? There very well may have been absolutely nothing illegal done in this instance. There's no mention that I saw of trying to figure out who wounded the deer in the first place. Was there a neighbor kid half a mile away kicking himself for missing a deer, or for hitting one & losing it? We don't know.

I'm not saying I would have illegally finished the deer off, but I'd sure have a hard time just leaving it to die like that.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I would have, without hesitation, turned to the CO (whom I would have been extremely disappointed and upset with) and said "do what'chya gotta do, buddy, I'm putting this deer down"!

If I come across any critter in the woods that is suffering from a human inflicted wound, and I have a gun, I will with no hesitation, put it down.

It's ridiculous that this CO was the way he was... I actually find it hard to believe. However, if it did happen, I would give him a friendly talking to as he wrote my ticket for dispatching the wounded buck.

This springs turkey, shed and shroom hunters will expose a lot of the wasteful carnage of little spike bucks and 6 ptrs. that got left to lay.

[someday]

Anything is possible. But it is unlikely anyone under 21 had permission to be hunting within a mile of where I found the deer as I own most that land. I found the blood about 200 yards up a waterway from a mile long dead end township road that cuts through my property. a lot of road hunters drive that road often they shoot roosters they see in the ditches. My best guess is the it was shot at by someone on the road either the night before or early that morning when it didn't fall down they went on.

[zepman]

I would have, without hesitation, turned to the CO (whom I would have been extremely disappointed and upset with) and said "do what'chya gotta do, buddy, I'm putting this deer down"!

If I come across any critter in the woods that is suffering from a human inflicted wound, and I have a gun, I will with no hesitation, put it down.

It's ridiculous that this CO was the way he was... I actually find it hard to believe. However, if it did happen, I would give him a friendly talking to as he wrote my ticket for dispatching the wounded buck.

This springs turkey, shed and shroom hunters will expose a lot of the wasteful carnage of little spike bucks and 6 ptrs. that got left to lay.

+1.

[B. Amish]

how does the CO know who wounded it? for all he knows, it easily could've been the guy who called saying there's a wounded little buck, can i shoot it?

[96trigger]

Quote:

This springs turkey, shed and shroom hunters will expose a lot of the wasteful carnage of little spike bucks and 6 ptrs. that got left to lay.

Every spring turkey hunters and shed hunters find numerous deer that have been shot and either never recovered or let lay. Last spring some really nice bucks were found, one was a 160+, The kid brought it in and I scored it myself. He must not have been a big enough trophy for the guy that shot him, and thats why it was left in the woods.