Thoughts on Pike regulations (40"+)

[cjac]

If it is Ok for 1.4 million sportsman to throw dead slot limit northern pike back down the hole with the hook and line method then it should be ok for 15 thousand of those very same sportsmen to throw dead slot limit northern pike down the hole with the darkhouse spearing method.

Wow....... Hook & line mortality vs throwing a spear is like comparing a freeway fender bender to a figure 8 derby crash 'em up event. Unintended byproduct for 99% of us commuters <insert H&L anglers here> vs. intended outcome for 1% figure 8 derby car drivers <insert spearers here>.

[SmellEsox]

I personaly would like to see regulations based on the sportsman and not the method.

If it is Ok for 1.4 million sportsman to throw dead slot limit northern pike back down the hole with the hook and line method then it should be ok for 15 thousand of those very same sportsmen to throw dead slot limit northern pike down the hole with the darkhouse spearing method.

If it is wrong for sportsmen to make mistakes and unintentionaly kill slot limit northern pike then let's hold the sportsman responsible for that crime no mater the method they choose.

If it is a hybrid regulation then let it apply to the sportsman equally regardless of the method.

I am pretty sure the resource don't care what legal method is used.

So what you are saying is that any kind of a length limit isn't fair to spearers or has the unintended consequence of making a spearer a criminal if he mistakenly spears a protected northern? So we are talking about a bag limit change instead of length limits? Or are we talking two different regulations for anglers and spearers?

[muskydeceiver]

You can twist a survey questions and or results around any way you like.

[AWH]

I personaly would like to see regulations based on the sportsman and not the method.

Step back for a second without getting on the defensive, and I think this statement says a lot as to why it's hard to come to common ground. You say that you don't want to see regulations based on the method. Yet this is exactly what you are asking for. Changes in regulations to account for the method that you use. How many times have you said - it's not the method, it's the sportsman? And by the way, I agree completely with that. But this contradicts what you say in regards to what you want to see the regulations based on.

That point aside, there is a very large percentage of people (myself included) that would like to see regulations based on the FISH. Not the sportsman, not the method. But what's in the best interest of the fishery that still allows all user groups opportunies? In order to come to common ground, groups need to start with where they agree, not where they disagree. If that route is taken you'll find that groups agree on far more than they disagree on.

The goals of fisheries management should be to set regulations that are not only what's best for the resource, but also allow the end user (the sportsman) the type of resource that they want to utilize. Way too often we see people that want one thing, but don't want the type of management that will allow that to happen. Those are the kinds of people that are impossible to make happy. Slots aren't intended to target the spearers and make life unfair for them. In fact, they have ZERO to do with spearers. They are intended to manage the FISH. And in turn, the entire fishery.

Aaron

[walleye101]

If it is Ok for 1.4 million sportsman to throw dead slot limit northern pike back down the hole with the hook and line method method..........

Merk,

For what seems like the one thousandth time, hook and line anglers are not throwing dead slot limit pike down the hole. We have been over...and over.... and over that issue. Are you ever going to acknowledge or respond?

Other than these side tracks this thread has taken a refreshing direction with some productive discussion on pike management.

[AWH]

Other than these side tracks this thread has taken a refreshing direction with some productive discussion on pike management.

Agreed! Let's get back to that and discuss how we can protect and improve the resources that we all enjoy.

Aaron

[merkman]

So what you are saying is that any kind of a length limit isn't fair to spearers

Nope not saying that at all.

[merkman]

When he says that "45 of 48" spear fisherman are "FORCED" off of slot lakes it is not a fact. This is not what the study found. It is FACT that this is nothing close to what the study found.

I guess we shouldn't believe the MnDNR biologists now?

Don't kill the messenger, it is just what the study says.

Post the link so we can all read it.

[Spike76]

The tunnel vision is by the ones who want the slots. I know considerable amounts of people who think catch and release is torture. It sounds like most of you want larger fish for games and not food. My fish go in the frypan, not on the wall. The experimental slot limit on some lakes were for a few, or as the DNR says, a considerable amount. Thats why I used it, if they would say 10 or 20 thousand, it would tell us something. It won't mean nothing if every fish you catch is 10 or more pounds. Catch one big one a year and be happy.

[Esox_Magnum]

The need to eat all you catch mentality is alot of the problem, if you like to eat pike take home a limit of 18-22" fish. I love to eat fish but throw back any walleyes over 17" and keep none under 14, all pike go back regardless of size, even a 20 pounder will go back. I eat plenty of fish every year using this system and eat well....

[muskydeceiver]

I guess we shouldn't believe the MnDNR biologists now?

Don't kill the messenger, it is just what the study says.

Post the link so we can all read it.

They interviewed 48 that first time and 3 the second time. Do you know anything besides those numbers?????? Since you can never answer a direct question I will answer it for you. You don't know anything besides those numbers. They could have spent weeks the first time and a lunch hour the second time. Could have been an outing the first time and a Wednesday the second time. You don't know why there is a discrepancy. I'm going to say it's because there was a rainbow and leprechauns running around and pike all go to 100 ft of water immediately when that happens.......

[goblueM]

The goals of fisheries management should be to set regulations that are not only what's best for the resource, but also allow the end user (the sportsman) the type of resource that they want to utilize. Way too often we see people that want one thing, but don't want the type of management that will allow that to happen. Those are the kinds of people that are impossible to make happy. Slots aren't intended to target the spearers and make life unfair for them. In fact, they have ZERO to do with spearers. They are intended to manage the FISH. And in turn, the entire fishery.

Aaron

you just summed up the position of most of the vocal minority. The majority of anglers (and spearers) want to see larger fish, but they don't want reduced bag limits or changes in length limits, or practice catch and release. /facepalm

[foulpole18]

Eating everything your catch is a impossible ideal. There aren't enough fish for every fisherman to do it and still have fishable populations. Spike should stop looking out for what you want and maybe think about your grandkids fishing in the future. I think it was you who said your grandchild could keep their biggest fish. And if I remember right you were upset by that. Give me a break. Use it as a teaching experience. My 3 year old already understands that any fish we keep get cleaned and we eat it right away. He knows that the bigger fish get released and we keep the smaller ones for the frying pan.

I took a picture of a 36" pike I caught and sent it to my wife to show him. 10 minutes later she calls a he tells me "it's too big, back in lake Da." Dont feel bad about releasing some fish. It's what's good for the lake. Practice selective harvest and enjoy your time on the water.

[merkman]

Muskies Inc and the Minnesota Muskie

Alliance,

Your groups have your summertime only, catch and release only Esox species. Please go out and enjoy it.

We will work for years to clean up the loose ends this has caused.

It is now illegal in Minnesota to target muskies for catch and release in the winter time, I am not sure where that puts anglers targeting northern pike for catch and release on muskie lakes in the winter time (since they both use the same equipment and methods), but your groups have their wish.

I understand though, the tip up is only a method, and muskie lakes only comprise 30 some percent of fishable Minnesota acerage. If the "evil" tip up fishermen targeting northern pike and killing muskies in the process don't like it, they can just go somewhere else right? The ground work is already laid in the case of the darkhouse spearing method. The tip up method can just follow suit.

[Muskiefool]

They are looking to "Ban" Catch and Release fishing the same as PETA and the Humane Society, I hope everyone see's whats happening.

Manipulation of local government and organizations to stop Muskie fishing is only the beginning.

[cbrooks]

They are looking to "Ban" Catch and Release fishing the same as PETA and the Humane Society, I hope everyone see's whats happening.

Manipulation of local government and organizations to stop Muskie fishing is only the beginning.

Interesting you brought that up John. In my state North Dakota has had the same bill to ban high fence hunting every other year the last six years. Its being pushed by the Humane Soceity and its getting closer everytime. I don't hunt that way but I don't agree with who is pushing this bill. Kinda of scary the power some of these groups have.

[Esox_Magnum]

Where do you think spearing will go once PETA and other such groups set their sights on it??

[merkman]

They are looking to "Ban" Catch and Release fishing the same as PETA and the Humane Society, I hope everyone see's whats happening.

Here's the difference between your groups and PETA.

Your groups were successful at closing the winter catch and release season on muskies.

I personaly don't want to see that same logic applied to the northern pike.

I am sorry if you don't understand that position.

_

[smallie_hawgin]

The tunnel vision is by the ones who want the slots. I know considerable amounts of people who think catch and release is torture. It sounds like most of you want larger fish for games and not food. My fish go in the frypan, not on the wall. The experimental slot limit on some lakes were for a few, or as the DNR says, a considerable amount. Thats why I used it, if they would say 10 or 20 thousand, it would tell us something. It won't mean nothing if every fish you catch is 10 or more pounds. Catch one big one a year and be happy.

Spike, Merk and others. Help me understand some fundamental thoughts here please.....

1. How does a slot limit discriminate users of the resource? In my mind, the regulation forces all anglers that use that particular lake to abide by those limits. Regardless of method. Illegal harvest by any method is just that, illegal.

2. Why is it such an imposition to one group and not another? When we have so many lakes that do not have any other restrictions on them (we are truly blessed with many in MN), why is this particular imposition on spearing? 120 some odd lakes regulated for pike out of over 3000 with public access?

3. Why is there such interest in a relative few lakes by the MDAA folks? As shown in the little presentation here: Presentation showing NOP history in LF lakes There are some positive changes occurring since the implementation of regulations. We have the data that our unbiased nets tell us, as well as anecdotal data from many folks, spearing and non-spearing alike. So why the desire to "get at" these particular lakes? If the true intent is to be sportsman, shouldn't we be supporting such opportunities?

4. A general question here for all.... How and why do any of the groups feel that management by legislation will solve all the problems?

If I was running a business, and I listened to one customer comment and changed my whole business plan due to that one comment, is that responsible? Decisions to improve or modify fish populations are made with biology (using actual research and data)and social considerations (public comment and suggestions) in mind. The state has a process and ALL citizens have the opportunity to voice their opinion. I am truly confused with our current path.

Great discussion. It is through conveying thoughts like all of these that we all can hopefully come to understanding the differences between some of the users out there.

[merkman]

smallie_hawgin

Please re-read this entire post.

All those questions have been answered multiple times by each individuals comments.

Unless you truly want to re-hash it for the 1000th time.

For me it is about time to bring out the bunny.

This thread like all the others on these topics has once again slipped into the realm of craziness.

If you do have questions for the Minnesota Darkhouse And Angling Association please ask them.

I do not represent the Minnesota Darkhouse And Angling Association.

I am a member but I do not speak for them.

Until we can respect each other as sportsmen I don't see anything changing.

_

[goblueM]

so in other words, you don't have any good answers to the questions above, so have to redirect the conversation with a compeletely troll-tastic response.

[merkman]

so in other words, you don't have any good answers to the questions above, so have to redirect the conversation with a compeletely troll-tastic response.

My position has not changed.

If I don't answer the questions I get feedback such as yours.

If I answer the questions I get blamed for cutting and pasting for the 1000th time.

Which version of wrong would you like me to persue?

[Esox_Magnum]

Down here in Iowa we don't allow spaering and on my lakes we do have a closed season on muskies from Dec 1 to May 21, this don't deter folks from fishing for pike or any other species with any of the allowed methods( hook and line or tip ups) yes muskies are caught, something that can't be stopped nor even an issue since you can't help what bites. Now we do have a small problem with a select few who think muskies are to blame for poor catch rates, not the fishermen who flock to the lake in droves every day of ice season. A slow day would yeild 200-300 shacks on the lake and a busy day 500+. Funny the few we have problems with hold a non resident license from a state 15 miles to the north.... Now you should also know my home waters are considered some of the

best,bluegill,perch,smallmouth,largemouth,pike,muskie and walleye lakes in the midwest..

[cbrooks]

Merk all this fighting back and forth can go away if the MDAA would agree to work with other fishing organization such as Muskie Inc...or you can continue to run the table at the legistrature to get your way and alienate every other fisherman out there.

[walleye101]

A couple of pages back, before we started exchanging jabs and body blows, this thread was heading in a positive direction with some interesting dialog on pike biology and pike management. Would anyone else like to see it head back in that direction?

In that interest, here is a list maybe most can agree on.

1) Pike biology is complex.

2) Pike populations function differently in different lake types.

3) Pike harvest (by any method) can effect pike population size structure.

4) Pike population size structure can be manipulated by how harvest is managed.

5) Pike size structure can effect pike abundance.

6) Pike size structure and abundance can effect other aspects of the fish community.

7) Pike management is complex because the are different users involved with different objectives.

8) Pike harvest (responsible and sustainable)is an important objective to a large portion of users.

9) Pike quality (size)is an important objective to a large portion of users.

10) No user group has sole right to dictate pike management for all waters.

I'm sure not everyone will agree with all of these. If not pick an number and explain why you disagree.