Quick survey of my own curiosity on "point restriction"

[psepuncher]

I get my info from other states with APR's that have been inplace for years. I've been looking at Pennsylvania.

It does create some type of bad genetics just look at this, it's another one from PA.

Looks bad I just know it does. I called this picture ..ugly genetics syndrom.

[bottom-bouncer]

I get my info from other states with APR's that have been inplace for years. I've been looking at Pennsylvania.

It does create some type of bad genetics just look at this, it's another one from PA.

Looks bad I just know it does.

Count the points again pse. I know I went to public school but it sure looks like 7 pts not 6.

[Jameson]

I do believe 'cullng' of bucks works on high fence operations. APR's are the opposite and will have the opposite effect.

Never said anything about 1 1/2 year old 6ers. It's the bucks that will NEVER grow to be anything bigger than a 6er getting more of an opportunity to spread their genetics compared to bucks that have their life cut short due to growing too many points on their rack.

Please provide me with a study that proves the opposite.

I am willing to change my mind. I was once pro-APR's and anti-spearing, and am now anti-APR's and pro-spearing. So, I am willing to change my mind. Just provide some solid reasoning.

[psepuncher]

Count the points again pse. I know I went to public school but it sure looks like 7 pts not 6.

who said I was talking about the deer?..LOL

Anyway it's another example the APR crowd is only concerned with is points and not maturity. Same mentality you just stumbled to say...take him out, he's got legal points.

The deer can have a few more years in my book to gain some maturity and antler mass.

Don't be upset it's not directed at you. as I'm making a point that time and time again, that the APR crowed is least concerned with is maturity and seems to be only an antler point driven harvest.

call it what you will but I did the same type of picture test on another post not long ago.

Let 'em go let 'em grow should mean what the APR crowd was blabbing about in the first place seeing more mature deer. It just seems like tom foolery to me what they really are getting from people. Which is only a point driven ego.

This isn't directed at anything more than a mindset. One that I hope will actually bring more of the Pro APR crowd into seing more mature deer.

[nonteepical]

poor genetics existed before APR in pennsylvania, it takes generations to change genetics in a wild deer herd. a buck with poor antlers could have came from his mothers genes and if the mother dosen't get shot she, passes them on year after year.

[psepuncher]

poor genetics existed before APR in pennsylvania, it takes generations to change genetics in a wild deer herd.

I was referring to my paint job and thee guy having ugly gene syndrom. Notice the wink icon at the bottom of the post? re-read it and put 1 and 1 together.

Maybe I didn't do such a bad job of painting after all.

[Ebiz]

Quote:

there are so many what if what if my wife wants to shoot a little buck what if my neighbors nephews neighbors son-in law who hasnt hunted before has a world record six pointer show up. Here is what my answers are for all of you. first if you wife or another person you know has never had the oppurtunity to hunt before the were a legal adult then I think you need to look further than the current deer season regulations for answers. Start with your father in-law ask him why he never took the time to take her when she was young the same can apply to a friend ask his father why everything else was more important than teaching there son or daughter the value of the outdoors. I do understand that life is not always fair but that is life some will have to wait for 4pts or better before harvesting there first buck.

That is one of the most ridiculous arguments so far, so now because my wife's dad never took her hunting she can't shoot a deer because you have an obsession with horns?

[hockeybc69]

All for APR for firearms hunting.

Leave it be for muzzy and archery.

[jnorm1984]

Replying to the original question posted:

I would support a state-wide restriction, but it would never get enough support to accually happen. The way I see it, there is a huge number of deer hunters that only hunt the first weekend of gun opener, I would be tempted to say the majority. And if we take away ther ability to shoot what they have opportunity to shoot we would loose their interest, and loose hunters, which would be a very bad thing for many reasons. Like it or not, many areas of the state do not have high deer numbers, so if a person doesnt see a lot of deer in the first place, and they only hunt 2 days out of the year, they wont have much opportunity to have the satisfaction of killing an animal in the first place, and if a restriction is put on there chances are even worse...I know after a few years of apr the quailty of deer would get better, and there would be more opportuntiy to harvest a legal buck, so being a hunter myself that gets to hunt 20-30 days a year I'd be for it, but we must consider the "majority" of deer hunters...I love horns, but in the end if someone else doesnt care about big horns, who am I to say they can't shoot a fork and be proud of the animal.

[hockeybc69]

They are antlers.

Just a pet peeve..

[InTheNorthwoods]

I do believe 'cullng' of bucks works on high fence operations. APR's are the opposite and will have the opposite effect.

Never said anything about 1 1/2 year old 6ers. It's the bucks that will NEVER grow to be anything bigger than a 6er getting more of an opportunity to spread their genetics compared to bucks that have their life cut short due to growing too many points on their rack.

Please provide me with a study that proves the opposite.

I am willing to change my mind. I was once pro-APR's and anti-spearing, and am now anti-APR's and pro-spearing. So, I am willing to change my mind. Just provide some solid reasoning.

The problem with the idea of culling is not that "culling doesn't work" but rather that "culling cannot be done in the wild". In order to cull bucks, you have to wait until a deer has reached maturity to do any sort of culling, and in the wild, it is very hard to track single deer to determine age and genetics, and then to actually harvest that deer. The reality is that a vast majority of spikes, forks, or small antlered bucks are simply immature deer. If you kill an immature deer, you won't know what its potential is. Many spike bucks are capable of great potential if given the chance to age.

The following study and atricle gives a great example of how culling doesn't work in the wild.

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/deermanagement/NAW_cull_1206/

[Jameson]

(links not working)

ah, but APR's don't cull the inferior deer. They cull the superior deer.

Quote:

The reality is that a vast majority of spikes, forks, or small antlered bucks are simply immature deer. If you kill an immature deer, you won't know what its potential is. Many spike bucks are capable of great potential if given the chance to age.

100% agree with this. It's that a few bucks never reach APR's cull status, and get to spread their genes for as long as they live. And that is longer than what a more-pointed rack buck lives.

Come up with a regulation that protects 100% of yearling bucks, 100% of 2.5's, and 0% of 3.5's and I could get behind it. Still would much prefer a buck lottery. Gets rid of the sea of pumpkins, and increases the age structure of bucks.

[jnorm1984]

They are antlers.

Just a pet peeve..

Its more fun to call 'em horns!

[candiru]

So Jameson, just to get this straight. You would force people in areas with low deer numbers to hunt another area or not hunt at all, if they did not get drawn for a buck or doe tag in their preferred unit?

I don't think it is good for the future of hunting to tell people that invested time, money (purchased equipment and land), and break up long held traditions of deer camp, that you have to sit out some years or not shoot the monster that is in front of you, just so some can brag about the big one they shot. I could see some mighty P.O.ed people that bought land to hunt on, or just farm it, and took care of it now being told that they can't hunt it this year. I can't see them letting someone else hunt it.

[Jameson]

...just so some can brag about the big one they shot....

turrible assumption!!!! Their is way more to it than that.

And I am one of those people that put in more time and money during the off-season than during the deer season.

Many people are already P.O.ed at the condition our deer herd is in. Can't make everyone happy. If we had to sit out a year or more, it would just make the hunting we were able to do that much sweeter. Deer do not belong to the land owners, they are public, for everyone and should be managed for everyone not just the private land owners. I will be sitting on private land tomorrow with food plots, hinge-cuts, tree plantings, etc and would do it all every year even if I did not hunt every year. The hunting camps may not be deer camps some years, maybe grouse camps, coyote camps, rooster camps...groups could still get together and enjoy each other and hunting.

Is it all about killing deer to you? Go to a high fence operation and you will be guaranteed what you want.

[Hory]

I myself have shot ONE buck that would have scored under 135-145" and that was my FIRST buck. I am not in favor of the point restriction...I am in favor of people letting 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks live. However, people should have the right to shoot whatever size deer they like in my opinion. I hunt Buffalo County WI, and the culture of a "Big Buck" there is completely different. I've seen numerous hunters harvest 150" bucks only to "European-Style" mount them, because they just weren't big enough for the shoulder mount. Until the culture of deer hunting changes in parts of MN, certain areas will only produce small numbers of quality "trophy" bucks for people to harvest.

[InTheNorthwoods]

(links not working)

ah, but APR's don't cull the inferior deer. They cull the superior deer.

100% agree with this. It's that a few bucks never reach APR's cull status, and get to spread their genes for as long as they live. And that is longer than what a more-pointed rack buck lives.

Come up with a regulation that protects 100% of yearling bucks, 100% of 2.5's, and 0% of 3.5's and I could get behind it. Still would much prefer a buck lottery. Gets rid of the sea of pumpkins, and increases the age structure of bucks.

Hmmm, I just tried the link and it worked. Its a good article and I recommend anyone interested in the culling/APR/wild genetic altering argument read it for perspective.

As to "High grading", or killing only the superior gened bucks due to APR's, I am fully aware of that argument and its potential. My perspective is that "high grading" would not be a problem in most areas. There are so many factors working against high grading becoming a reality that I don't really want, or have the time, to go into because I am not a big APR guy.

If you'll look back to my previous posts in this and other similar threads, like you, I am a proponent of a lotter system for tags (and no party hunting). If we mimmiced North Dakota I'd be happy. I have always hunted MN and passed on smaller bucks, but after a couple of seasons of hunting ND, I have taken on a whole new perspective.

I think a lottery presents a best case scenario, more bucks would live for another day for those that choose to pass and those that choose to take the first one they see won't be affected. I also think a lottery would better control the herd numbers, as it currently stands, a million people could buy a tag and hunt in the same county and kill every buck out there. In MN, the small ones have very little chance and the herd makeup is out of whack in alot of areas.

[Jameson]

link working now. I read the article, and it is one I've read before. Yes, it does a good job of showing not to cull a young buck based on if it has spikes. The most pertinent statement in that article is "The truth is, we know of only a handful of properties and management situations for which culling of any kind is a reasonable alternative. In many regions, large numbers of bucks are harvested at a very young age (less than 2 1/2 years). Consequently, no matter what genetics they were born with, those genetics never get a chance to be realized." The current APR's in zone three are only realistically going to up the average harvest age one year. Not as good as lottery buck could do, all the while telling hunters what bucks they can and cannot shoot and raising the concern of misidentifying legal bucks before the shot (and the possible effects of high-grading.)

In my last post I stated that their was more to managing bucks than simply worrying about antler size. I would like to expand on that some. Particularly lottery areas of the state, during much of the rut, we have a terrible buck to doe ratio. This leads to not all does being bred on their first estrous cycle. This leads to late births of fawns. This leads to the fawns not able to get large enough to survive the winter and a high number of winter-kill fawns. Having more bucks in the population will cure not getting the does bred on their first estrous cycle, and if they are older bucks it would help ensure that the bucks themselves are in fair enough shape to survive the winter. So managing the bucks can help increase the overall population of deer by having more fawns survive winter.

[PurpleFloyd]

Next we will be debating whether we should date/ marry a girl if she doesn't have big knockers.

[nonteepical]

them are some saggy knockers.

[Rippinlip]

Listening to Lou on KFAN on Thursday night on my way to work, he brought up some good points that was a concern, but Lou and the state wanted to see how this APR in Zone 3 went.

Deer hunting brings a whopping 250 million dollars of revenue to this state, thats a quarter of a Billion folks.

One concern is that he is figuring 35-40% less buck tags getting filled this year in Zone 3, not really guessing where next years numbers may fall yet.

Probably good for the APR group, one concern with the cost of everything going up is the POSSIBILITY of loss of hunters.

I personally(me) not Lou, do not think that will happen, but...... it has to be looked at.

Another question I have is for the people that support APR, do you do your part in harvesting does/fawns to help equal out the deer heard?

That was mentioned before about does not getting bred or bred late.

So if you are an APR supporter I am fully expecting you are taking a anterless deer or two, right?

[james_walleye]

Jameson you said it yourself, the deer belong to the public. Surveys showed in zone 3 that the majority of the public were for some form of protection for young bucks and APR's had the most support. Im all for seeing what the situation looks like after 3 years. If after 3 years the public says we don't like APR's, then get rid of them. As far as statewide, i think alot will depend on what happens in zone 3. If the results in the next 3 years are like the results in Missouri (which there is no reason to think they won't be) hunter support in zone 3 will grow substantially. Personally i don't think you will ever see a statewide blanket APR in place. The state is to diverse. But you may see an extension off of zone 3 take place.

[bottom-bouncer]

Listening to Lou on KFAN on Thursday night on my way to work, he brought up some good points that was a concern, but Lou and the state wanted to see how this APR in Zone 3 went.

Deer hunting brings a whopping 250 million dollars of revenue to this state, thats a quarter of a Billion folks.

One concern is that he is figuring 35-40% less buck tags getting filled this year in Zone 3, not really guessing where next years numbers may fall yet.

Probably good for the APR group, one concern with the cost of everything going up is the POSSIBILITY of loss of hunters.

I personally(me) not Lou, do not think that will happen, but...... it has to be looked at.

Another question I have is for the people that support APR, do you do your part in harvesting does/fawns to help equal out the deer heard?

That was mentioned before about does not getting bred or bred late.

So if you are an APR supporter I am fully expecting you are taking a anterless deer or two, right?

I have stuck three does this year and my son one so yes we are doing are part as far as heard managment.

[ARROW 1]

Bring on APR except for northern MN. I don't hunt up there but understand

the hunters concerns with APR in that area on the state. Limited time to

count tines in the thick stuff and what not. But down here in farm country

any deer with antlers don't have much of a chance. Its even worse this year with

almost all the corn gone and the swamps full of water. Opening morning most of the were in the woods getting blasted. I was in the stand with my bow the second morning of slug season. I passed on a small buck I hope he makes it. I just wish I didn't hope for him to make it. It would be nice to know he would make it. Just my .02

[DHost21]

I completely agree i think APR could be expanded more and more a little each year towards the south west and then the metro and moving north each year but also I think there is a point when you get towards northern minnesota where it wouldnt be the best thing so i think the best would be to keep expanding it slowly throughout the southern part of the state. I am all for it. And yes i have been taking does when i can to help the herd. Its the people that say they are "meat hunters" but then wait until the last day to shoot after they have passed on a few does and then shoot a little buck and say they were just out there for meat those are the people that i cant stand and i would like to see this in effect for that cause i do think more people will take does then towards the end of a hunt cause they cant shoot that little buck that they were waiting for for there meat