Traffic law question regarding school buses

[LightningBG]

Safety is the issue.

The stop sign on the bus ,that is extended, is a STOP sign that deserves respect just as any other stop sign. You at least should stop.

The bus was part way into the intersection not behind a crosswalk. This is done to bring attention to the situation.

If I were turning right into a driveway on the close side of a stop sign, I wouldn't stop before I went into the driveway. This seems kinda the same.

Since you're on here scout, why is it that a bus would stop in the intersection instead of... say 50ft behind it?

Just wondering.

[deadeye]

The whole reason why they stop at the intersection is to give the kids a chance to make it through the intersection in all directions while the bus has all traffic stopped. It assures that they make it safely across what could be a busy/treacherous intersection without hassle.

If the bus let the kids off before the intersection it would not have the ability to shut down the intersection to traffic. Then the kids would be at the mercy of the motorists and would not have as easy time crosssing.

[deadeye]

Oh yeah and personally I love that law.

I watched a kid get hit by a car in a bad intersection. It was the single most sickening, sad, scary, and heartbreaking thing I have ever seen. Thank God it just happened to be 2 blocks from North Memorial. If that law is a pita then so be it but I will be more than happy to stop. I never ever want to see that again.

[kevfish1]

No where in the law to I read that a school bus can shut down an intersection. And how is a bus giving the proper warnings if it stops at an intersection??? Just curious

[BobT]

It is a good argument but what about all the other intersections one or two blocks away in any direction? This doesn't do anything for those. Personally, I think it would be safer the other way because with the bus stopping at the intersection and stopping traffic, the kids get a false sense of security and are more likely to forget about watching for traffic at other intersections.

[Ryan_V]

another thing to remember is that the stop sign only faces one way front and back, the bus can't create a "4 way" stop. A bus can't shut down an entire intersection. The drivers can only stop traffic so the kids can safely cross in front of the bus, you can't expect them to stop the traffic from the other way as well.

[BobT]

I think scout was pointing out that the bus doesn't have the stop sign, the crossing traffic does so in effect he is stopping traffic for the entire intersection because as the cross traffic approaches the intersection, it too is forced to wait for the bus. In this regard, I think scout has a valid point.

[Juneau4]

I think Scout is using his position as a bus driver.

[Ryan_V]

I agree bob, but in the diagram he gave, if a car comes to a stop at the opposite sign (not the bus' sign) then I'd say they can carefully proceed, obviously not through the bus stop arm though.

[shizzy]

I think that in general, you just stop in any of those situations...no rolling stops, no yields. The questions here shouldn't be can I turn (so I can get to the office/home/etc quicker), but how can I handle this situation to ensure that I don't run over any kids. I don't have any kids but have no problem waiting for a bus to finish it's business. Kids do all kinds of crazy things and come running out of all directions to catch them, almost like the ice cream truck. If the guy behind me honks is horn, I'll point to the bus and continue waiting. If he/she gets really agitated, they get the one finger salute. Again, I have no problem [PoorWordUsage] off another driver if it means keeping kids safe.

Many mornings at the bottom of my street, a bus picks up kids in front of their house. He's on the top of an uncontrolled T-intersection and I come from the stem of the T. When he throws out that stop sign, I sit at the intersection and wait, even though I know where the kids are coming from. I get to work 30 seconds later....so everyone is happy!

you summed up my thoughts almost word for word. Just because a bus is picking up kids doesnt make the intersection any safer for the kids. If A kid is late for the bus they are going to be running for the big yellow bus on the corner and will dart out in to traffic to catch it.

Any time I see one kid I assume there is at least one more who is about to dart out in front of my truck. I tend to slow down and put my head on a swivel untill I am clear of the little devils.

as already stated, some of these situations require on the spot analysis of the situation. the way I see it, the bus will load/unload those kids in 20-30 seconds, so Id rather just wait it out if there is any question.

[LightningBG]

The worst is if you wait to make a right turn like in my diagram (opposite the bus) and then the bus heads in front of you, stopping every 1/2 block for another mile. That hurts the time table. ( but i do realize safety is paramount and turns should only be made when completely safe.)

Here is an interesting bus story...

One day I'm driving down 694 through Brooklyn Park area. I come upon a bus that has the cab-over-engine design with the flat front. As I approach, I notice something sticking out. I'm thinking the stop arm is stuck out or something, but No. I see the bus has an access door hanging wide open, with a set of 2-3 auto batteries on a sliding tray, hanging all the way out of the bus. I pull up next to the bus and honk a couple times (bus drivers window is open). I point to the bus driver towards the batteries (which are right under his window). He looks a couple times are me, never the batteries. Give's me a unfriendly hand gesture and closes the window.

I cant imagine they'll appreciate that when he pulls into a school or the bus yard. Hopefully he didn't clip a sign or something. Looked like that drawer was hanging out about 2.5 ft.

[PierBridge]

Dtro, I think you should contact the bussing company and suggest they instruct the driver to make the drop in the middle of the block. If you do that I bet the next day the drop is made in a different location.

Thats insane IMO and would cause more problems then doing it the right way.

Yeah lets stop in the middle of the block and let kids off...good one!

[PierBridge]

The whole reason why they stop at the intersection is to give the kids a chance to make it through the intersection in all directions while the bus has all traffic stopped. It assures that they make it safely across what could be a busy/treacherous intersection without hassle.

If the bus let the kids off before the intersection it would not have the ability to shut down the intersection to traffic. Then the kids would be at the mercy of the motorists and would not have as easy time crosssing.

What he said!

[kevfish1]

piere bridge> Just curious why you think dropping kids off at an intersection is safer than doing it in the middle of a block when motorists have a clear view of all warning lights from both directions and the bus driver can also see motorists comming from both directions instead of worrying what may come around the corner???

[kevfish1]

Got this from the minnesota school bus drivers handbook.

Unloading Procedure

To unload in areas where the 8-light system will be used, follow these steps:

1. Check traffic in both directions.

2. Activate alternately flashing amber lights:

a. 300 feet before stopping in a speed zone of more than 35 mph.

b. 100 feet before stopping in a speed zone of 35 mph or less.

3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.

4. Check traffic to make sure it is able to stop.

5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate the

stop arm.

6. Make sure that all traffic is stopped before opening the door fully.

7. Count the students as they leave the bus.

8. Pupils should walk away from the bus and not go toward the rear of the bus.

9. Students who must cross the road should move out at least ten feet in front of the bus and wait

for the driver to signal that it is safe to cross. Check traffic carefully before giving the signal to

cross.

10. A long steady blast of the horn can be used as a warning to students that it is NOT safe to cross.

11. Always check your mirrors and recount your students before moving the bus.

Now by stopping at an intersection how are the other motorists properly warned?? And how does the school bus driver see what may be comming?? And warn the kids if a potential problem is comming>??

[DTro]

Well, I understand now why there is concern. The kids come out of the door and cross the intersection diagonally in front the bus and me.

[Black_Bay]

Got this from the minnesota school bus drivers handbook.

Unloading Procedure

To unload in areas where the 8-light system will be used, follow these steps:

1. Check traffic in both directions.

2. Activate alternately flashing amber lights:

a. 300 feet before stopping in a speed zone of more than 35 mph.

b. 100 feet before stopping in a speed zone of 35 mph or less.

3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.

4. Check traffic to make sure it is able to stop.

5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate the

stop arm.

6. Make sure that all traffic is stopped before opening the door fully.

7. Count the students as they leave the bus.

8. Pupils should walk away from the bus and not go toward the rear of the bus.

9. Students who must cross the road should move out at least ten feet in front of the bus and wait

for the driver to signal that it is safe to cross. Check traffic carefully before giving the signal to

cross.

10. A long steady blast of the horn can be used as a warning to students that it is NOT safe to cross.

11. Always check your mirrors and recount your students before moving the bus.

Now by stopping at an intersection how are the other motorists properly warned?? And how does the school bus driver see what may be comming?? And warn the kids if a potential problem is comming>??

Maybe they will see the bright flashing orange then red lights and/or the stop arms that come out. I'm guessing the bus driver would look to their left, right, in front of them and in there rearview mirrors to see traffic. The driver could warn the kids if they see something dangerous while they are looking around, either by calling to them out a wondow or the door or maybe honking.

Apparently every single school bus I've been on or seen in cities has been doing it wrong. Each one has stopped at an intersection and not in the middle of nowhere. At times I've seen them stop at someones driveway on mor erural roads but that is to drop off those kids specifically and not a large number of neighborhood kids. IMO some people are getting their undies in a bunch over nothing.

[BobT]

I don't think anyone has suggested that the driver is wrong for using the intersection as a drop point. We have been debating whether it would be better to use the middle of the block where the traffic is approaching from only two directions instead of four.

[mrscott]

I used to drive a school bus. If the road is divided by a median or a ditch. You don't have to stop. If you are at an undivided intersection where all the lights are flashing, (Stop arm out OR not), you have to stop. You have to stop whether you are taking a right, left, straight, whatever. You have to stop. It's not courtesy, it's just the way it is. The driver should stop right in the middle of the road with the lights flashing until the kiddies are safely out of harms way. I see a few drivers drop kids off so the traffic can pass - kind or defeats the purpose.

[mrscott]

Oh yeah, part II

The Bus driver has to drop off kids at the designated area. Dispatch, the school, and the parents rely on that specific spot for their kids to be dropped. If it's unsafe, then the driver has to notify the Bus company.

[ShoreGuy1984]

Here's what it looks like:

That is a tough call, but if it was me, I would probaly stop and wait!!

[vister]

I know exactly what you're talking about. i would assume its legal to make the turn. if you're beyond 20 ft!! however, to avoid that fine or a close call, or worse, injury to a student, i just sit there ant wait!!