Sioux Logo

[Shorelunch]

From the GF Herald/UND beat writer:

Ralph Engelstad Arena general manager Jody Hodgson says that if he gets his wish, the arena will not be changing anything, despite the State Board of Higher Education's ruling today that UND begin to change its name and logo.

Engelstad Arena is not part of the settlement with the NCAA and it is privately owned. The NCAA may not grant The Ralph a regional if the logos stay, although Hodgson says he doesn't really care.

The NCAA has been trying to move regionals away from on-campus sites and UND has only hosted one in the last 30 years, so people in Grand Forks probably won't see much of a change.

[cbrooks]

I got this from WDAZ

Engelstad Family release a statement,

"My father was enormously proud to be identified with the fighting Sioux and its honored hertiage. My father beleived this recognition was very important for both the university and the Sioux citizens of North Dakota. The Sioux warriors were known for their courage, pride, overcoming adversity and winning battles. We remain steadfest in our dedication to the students, the alumi, and the fighting Sioux tradition at UND. We will never waiver from this position and we never forget this short-sighted and ill-advised decision.

We feel it necessary to once again answer the question of why this issue is so important to us. As my father once stated,

"Tradition is that gentle fabric woven through time and experience which generates meaning, character and identity to one and all. The Fighting Sioux logo, the Fighting Sioux tradition and the spirit of being a Fighting Sioux are of lasting value and immeasurable significance to our past, present and future."

GO FIGHTING SIOUX!

###

[Steve Foss]

The Standing Rock Lakota tribe has a petition presented to the tribal council to put it to a vote of the people of the tribe. The Spirit Lake Tribe already had passed a similar referendum, with about 65 percent in favor, and UND was told it could keep the nickname if both the Sioux tribes in N.D. gave approval. There was a deadline set up that Standing Rock missed.

These things are all known and established.

But here's the thing. If they do vote (it looks like it will pass easily if the tribal council allows the vote), will the board of higher ed continue to tell UND it can't keep the nickname even though the two tribes whose sensibilities were supposed to have been insulted have given their approval?

We'll just have to see how it plays out.

[DHK]

The difference is that large numbers of twins weren't exterminated from our Great Plains like the Sioux were. There's a lot of history that goes into this stuff. For white fans it's easy to dismiss it. It isn't the same as the Fighting Irish, either, as we didn't treat the Fighting Irish the way we did Native Americans.

[cbrooks]

I would bet my boat that when they have the vote on Standing Rock Reservation. The majority will want the name to stay. There may have been a time when students and fans were insentative towards the name and logo but I haven't seen any of that ever. Maybe one time when they were trying to get the crowd to do the tomahawk chop years ago. Native Amerricans are involved in the university from the faculty to students. This isn't a racist college. I can honestly say I don't know one Native American against the name and logo but I know a couple of scandanavian professors who are. I think this is nothing but Political Correctness. If this name is saved it will be from the voice of the Native Americans and thats how it should be. Either way I hope there's a final solution by this time next year. I need to start my making my UND hockey champs 2011 teeshirts;)

[Steve Foss]

My major at UND was dual, English and Indian Studies. I knew quite a few Indian people, and some of them truly were and still are offended by the name. That's another settled question. UND faculty/staff stances against the nickname have been partly because those individuals actually think it's wrong, and partly in support of their Dakota/Lakota/Nakota friends who are offended by it.

The consensus is that the Standing Rock vote will go pretty much the way the Spirit Lake vote did, if the Standing Rock Tribal Council will allow the vote. It's my understanding the Council head was against the nickname and had been slow to respond to the people's desire for a vote. That's one reason the people voted in a new tribal Chairman not long ago.

Likely the majority will rule, if the Standing Rock minority in power will allow it.

Then it'll be up to the board of education. The board can easily reverse any decision it's made so far, particularly since phasing out the nickname won't start to happen until next year.

FWIW, when this issue was a big one several years ago, you could see the anger flying back and forth. It was thick enough to cut with a knife. But it's been going on so long that a lot of people on both sides of the issue have gotten sick of it and just want it done so they can move on.

This comes from Brad Schlossman this morning, courtesy of Forum Communications and the Grand Forks Herald: GRAND FORKS – There’s a quote painted in the University of North Dakota’s locker room at Ralph Engelstad Arena reminding the players to honor the Sioux tribes in how they perform and carry themselves on the ice for each men’s hockey game. Even if the team is not wearing the Fighting Sioux logo on its jerseys in the future, coach Dave Hakstol says the team’s approach won’t change. “I can’t begin to put into perspective what that means inside of our locker room,” Hakstol said. “I can tell you it is very important and something we take very seriously. It’s something we will continue to carry forward. I want to make sure we honor the traditions of the Fighting Sioux in the right way. The decision was made, a decision out of control of the program, that we have parameters in front of us to move forward.” “Something that’s very important to me is to make sure we properly honor the traditions and make sure there is never anything of negative connotation associated with the Fighting Sioux name attached to the reason we changed it.” Hakstol joined other high-profile coaches at UND on Friday morning at Hyslop Sports Center to address the media in the wake of Thursday’s decision by the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education to retire the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. Like Hakstol, football coach Chris Mussman, women’s basketball coach Gene Roebuck and men’s basketball coach Brian Jones all expressed disappointment in Thursday’s developments. They all talked about traditions their teams carry in relation to the nickname and how they don’t see any of them changing. Even Roebuck, whose team may find conference affiliation because of the decision, couldn’t find much happiness in it. “If given the choice of keeping the name or getting into the Summit,” Roebuck said, “I’d definitely go with the Fighting Sioux. “I lived 18 years right around the Spirit Lake nation. I got to know a lot of Spirit Lake Native Americans who I call my friends. I think it’s a sad day. Sixty-seven percent of the people spoke and only 33 percent were heard. To me, that’s not what it should be about. We live in a democratic society. “I think the people at Spirit Lake needed to be heard. I really believe the people at Standing Rock, if given the opportunity to be heard, would have followed in Spirit Lake’s footsteps.” Mussman said he received a call Thursday night informing him of the board’s decision. He said it was a strange feeling knowing that the nickname and logo will be retired. “We have so many traditions within our program and we take pride in representing the Sioux,” he said. “That won’t go away. It’s not going to disappear overnight. We’re going to cherish the time we do have to represent it and we’re going to continue to represent it in a positive way.”

[cbrooks]

I've never heard of the Nakota/Lakota/Dakota friends. Is that a organization?

[Steve Foss]

Sorry about that.

It's not a group. Dakota, Lakota and Nakota are their own names for the three primary branches of the Sioux tribe. To white folks those distinctions don't matter much, and they just call all three branches "Sioux." Spirit Lake is Dakota. Standing Rock is a mix of Lakota and Nakota.

[cbrooks]

Thanks for the clarification.

Realistically, do you think the name is done or will this go on for awhile yet? Since standing rock hasn't had a vote on this or does that even matter anymore.

[Steve Foss]

Technically, I believe the state board has complete say in the matter over any choice UND or the tribes make. If Standing Rock approves it, the NCAA will have been satisfied but the board of higher ed can still nix the nickname, as I understand it, because they can tell UND what to do.

As an aside, Standing Rock's tribal council did write a letter to the board asking for direction on how to proceed and what would satisfy the board regarding the tribe's approval of the Sioux nickname. The board made no response to Standing Rock. None at all. And then they came out with the ruling that the nickname was finished. That makes some pessimistic that, even if/when Standing Rock's members approve the nickname, the board will reverse its decision and allow the nickname to stand.

However, if both the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock tribes have approved the nickname, thus satisfying the NCAA, if Sioux fans exert a lot of public pressure on the board to reverse its decision, I think it could happen. That's the only route toward keeping the nickname that I see as feasible at this time.

Just IMO.

[cbrooks]

I have a feeling that its a done deal but its only been a couple of days since the verdict. Its crazy how much politics is in this. There's so many angles here.

From a athletic stand point of the University. The only sport IMO that will be competitive in D1 will be hockey. In order for the other sports to even compete they would need to be in a conference. In order for us to be accepted into a conference UND would need to change there name. It seems to me if we keep this name it could be a cux towards the other programs for the university. One part of me wants the nickname and the other part understands why it needs to be change. I guess only time will tell. Thanks for all the insight Steve. This brings back memories of the Central Redskins.

[leech~~]

There's so much of this going on with College and Pro teams like the Braves, Chiefs etc. I wonder if anyone has ever asked the Tribes what Indian names or terms they would be in favor of that would represent the Indian culture in a good light?

[Steve Foss]

This brings back memories of the Central Redskins.

Dude, were you in H.S. when it was still the Central Redskins? Where did you got to H.S.?

Be sure to read Dad's next column. He's firing all guns at the N.D. Board of Higher Education. Nice that he's retired from the Herald now. He can be the bitter curmudgeon and pull it off. He's in Ely visiting us right now, and wrote some of his column for next week last night. Told us about it at breakfast this morning. If an editor pulls the Effie joke he made early in the column, I'll tell it in here. It's a good one.

[cbrooks]

Haha no I'm not that old J/K. I was class of 97 flood year. We were the knights by then. I had a couple older brothers that were redskins.

[Steve Foss]

We probably sandbagged together at some point in 1997. Note that I edited in more comments about Dad's upcoming column in my previous post.

[cbrooks]

Ah man, I can't wait. Is it in tomorrows?

[Steve Foss]

No, next week. He decided to wait a bit, even though the GFH sports editor called him just after the news broke and asked him if he wanted to sub a new column on deadline. Dad decided to wait until the peanut gallery had spoken so the Old Man of the WCHA could take a few days to think it over and come in behind and have his say. He's not finished yet. I've just seen exerpts. He doesn't pull any punches.

Kinda felt like my old newspaper editor days with an added twist, hearing what Dad was writing and offering a few tweaks and suggestions. But it'll be pure Virg. No editor in the world should pollute a singular voice, especially not when that voice has 40 years of Division I hockey experience behind it -- and uses the word he!! and makes an Effieing joke all in the same column.

[wolfman-k]

From one life-long FIGHTING SIOUX fan to another, tell your dad thanks for all he is doing, and has done over all these years. He is the voice of the Fighting Sioux. Thank you very much also Steve, your insight is appriciated.

[cbrooks]

I'll be looking forward to reading it.

I remember him tearing into the WCHA in one of his columns earlier this year with the Mario Lamoureux one game suspension for dropping his gloves to fight Aaron Marvin. He can yeild a pretty good sword.

[cbrooks]

From one life-long FIGHTING SIOUX fan to another, tell your dad thanks for all he is doing, and has done over all these years. He is the voice of the Fighting Sioux. Thank you very much also Steve, your insight is appriciated.

I think you could speak for alot of us wolfman.

[Steve Foss]

Thanks guys.

I don't always agree with Herald Editorial writer Tom Dennis (well, I do in this case), but his opinion pieces are always well researched and reasonable.

Here's his current editorial about the board's recent action:

OUR OPINION: Board made its nickname decision too early

Grand Forks Herald - 04/10/2010

The tribal supporters who filed a lawsuit on the Fighting Sioux nickname were wrong on the letter of the law. But the supporters were right on the law’s spirit. At long last, the nickname settlement had given Indian people a chance to be heard on the issue. The process was unfolding in relevant and meaningful ways. Now, it has been cut short by the Board of Higher Education. By doing so, the board left itself open to the charge that it doesn’t care what Indian people think — exactly the claim nickname opponents had made in the decades leading up to the settlement. That’s why the board’s decision Thursday to retire the nickname was a mistake. The board should have let the process at Standing Rock play out, thus giving nickname supporters there the time they thought they’d been promised to organize a referendum and follow-up council vote. A Herald editorial asked this question late last year, and it remains relevant today: What’s the rush? Why couldn’t the board have waited until November, when the nickname issue would have been settled not only with 100 percent certainty, but also in a way more acceptable to both sides? The words “Summit League” are not an answer. UND was on its way to a clear, fair and unifying resolution of difficult issue. That outcome was only seven months away. If the case had been made to the Summit League in those terms, league officials likely would have acquiesced. After all, it was settlement they had said they were after. It was settlement that, within a few months, they were going to get. There are those on both extremes of this issue who, come November, would have stayed bitter forever in defeat. But there are many, many more who are closer to the middle and would have accepted the verdicts of the tribes. And by “many, many more,” we mean that even people as pro-nickname as Jody Hodgson would have accepted the outcome. “If Standing Rock voted and wanted to change the nickname, I’d be the guy at the front of the group saying it’s time to change this thing,” Hodgson said Thursday. Hodgson is general manager of the Ralph Engelstad Arena. He comes about as close to channeling the spirit of Ralph Engelstad as anyone in Grand Forks. If Hodgson would have accepted defeat, most other supporters would have accepted defeat. Very importantly, that also includes the Spirit Lake tribal members who filed suit — strong nickname supporters who were insisting not on winning, not on keeping the nickname, but simply on delaying a final decision until November, thus letting the process at Standing Rock play out. The board could have — should have — fulfilled that reasonable request. Because the board didn’t do so, it looks like the nickname issue may not be settled after all. First, UND now may have to deal with an openly defiant Ralph Engelstad Arena. The outcome of that battle is anybody’s guess, but the keen interest that the Chronicle of Higher Education and other outlets will show in it is a safer bet. Second, Archie Fool Bear said he and his group still will pursue a nickname referendum at Standing Rock. Majority or supermajority support there, coupled with the supermajority support at Spirit Lake, will make for a lot of second-guessing about the state board’s pre-emptive decision. Third, some fall-off in alumni support is likely and would have been no matter how or when the board ruled. But that drop probably will be sharper now than it would have been in November. For evidence, see Hodgson above and understand that he represents some important core of UND’s support. In short, little would have been lost and a lot would have been gained if the board had waited a mere seven months. The board’s refusal to do so angered and frustrated nickname supporters, including — as the state now knows — thousands of Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Sioux. — Tom Dennis for the Herald

[cbrooks]

Tom Dennis nailed it.

The SBoHE must be feeling that public pressure now that you mention a few post ago Steve. I'm sure to see some more developments on this, maybe even a vote in Standing Rock Reservation in November.

Never imagine the nickname change to go down like this. I knew it would eventually have to be dealt with but not under these circumstances. I hope the right thing will be done in the end.

I always thought it would be Engelstad and the alumni or NCAA who were going to make this decision. Never even consider the Sioux nation itself will get the final say. Good for them. Whatever the vote is it will be settle. Good for those people. How can anyone argue against that, last time I check its still a democracy(sp).

[scsavre]

MAybe I am insensitive, but I still dont see why anyone needs permission to use any nickname that inst copyrighted against such use. Actually I know I am insensitive, but still.

[cbrooks]

I don't think I would want the name if we didn't get permission from the Native Americans. You would always have a backlash or controversy with it.

[Steve Foss]

MAybe I am insensitive, but I still dont see why anyone needs permission to use any nickname that inst copyrighted against such use. Actually I know I am insensitive, but still.

Scott, there are many out there who feel exactly as you do.