Conspiracy

[scsavre]

Well maybe not a conspiracy. But I have been wondering.

Why do pretty much all cities in MN that have a D1 college team have lousy Hockey programs, or at least subpar high school teams.

Bemidji - pretty lousy program

Mankato - cant say I have heard a good thing.

East grand forks. Havent seen a good team in a long time.

St cloud, hmmm not much there.

Duluth - Maybe the best program, but seriously there is plenty of room for another AA team. Good class A, I guess.

Any idea of why this is?

Especially when we see the smaller towns good year after year.

[goblueM]

i assume you are talking about high school hockey?

its always the same... bigger towns have lots more to do, the talent pool gets spread out. And since there are more things to do, people don't grow up doing the sport

look at all the Texas towns that have NOTHING but high school football. Its their whole life. very similar to many small Minnesota towns I think

[brmuskie]

I don't think you can count East Grand Forks in here. That is a pretty small town and there is no D1 hockey team there. Across the river where UND is at, they have some pretty good high school hockey there. I would bet that any given year the best team from Grand Forks is as competitive as any good program in Minnesota.

I agree with the rest though - there doesn't seem to be a hockey culture in the others except Duluth.

[scsavre]

I will give a grand forks team a 10 goal lead and still take Minnetonka. They might be competitive though, I dont know a lot about them.

East Grand is just across the river, same community? Close enough for this example.

So what are these kids doing then. If it is distractions of other things to do, why are the metro teams so good?

[Quackaddict9]

Well, Bemidji does not recruit like Bemidji State University every year to have a above average team year after year.

[Quackaddict9]

Also many of us are into the outdoors so we go hunting and fishing all weekend when we have no games or practice instead of going and play puck at the outdoors, gym to work out. That could be another reason?

[cbrooks]

I think East Grand Forks does alright. That town is just 9000 people not that big but I guess I couldn't tell you the last time they made it to the tourament either. It seems in that section its dominanted by Warroad.

[cbrooks]

Grand Forks had a High School hockey tourament every year at the Ralph right before Christmas. This they had Grand Forks Central & Red River Roseau and apple Valley. Central ended up beating Roseau and losing to Apple Valley 2-1. Obviously I'm going to be a little bias here but the Grand Forks area has three high schools. I'll bet two of the three of the high schools would be competative in Minnesota. Minnesota hockey is top notch in the nation its tough to have that winning tradition at that level.

[&JAG]

I will give a grand forks team a 10 goal lead and still take Minnetonka. They might be competitive though, I dont know a lot about them.

East Grand is just across the river, same community? Close enough for this example.

So what are these kids doing then. If it is distractions of other things to do, why are the metro teams so good?

Your crazy! Any GF team would hammer Minnetonka with even a 5 goal head start!

[brmuskie]

The Grand Forks team that didn't even make the ND State tourney this year beat Roseau. Not that many teams in ND don't make the state tourney.

Each year there is 1 or 2 teams in ND that could play with anyone in MN and usually those teams are from Grand Forks.

Getting back to the original post; I have a serious question because I don't know the answer - Are the metro teams that are good - loaded with kids from rich families? I know that a lot of people are making do with less income just so that they can live in the small towns where they do. Does that have anything to do with their ability to buy icetime, not have part time jobs as a high school kid, skating in leagues in the summer, etc....

Skating in summer and fall leagues is another thing - that isn't readily available in most of MN.

[zepman]

I would think it has something to do with the # of schools available in towns like Mankato and St. Cloud. The youth programs seem to do o.k. but then they split at certain age levels. Mankato, for example, has 3 different high schools (East, West, Loyola). It's a #'s game then...East and West have @ 200-250 kids per class. They seem to lose their steam after the split happens.

Same thing happens everywhere I guess...look at the Rochester schools. Don't really hear much about them anymore since Century opened it's doors. Do you think Eden Prairie would be as good in all the different sports if they split?

[Kidd]

Getting back to the original post; I have a serious question because I don't know the answer - Are the metro teams that are good - loaded with kids from rich families? I know that a lot of people are making do with less income just so that they can live in the small towns where they do. Does that have anything to do with their ability to buy icetime, not have part time jobs as a high school kid, skating in leagues in the summer, etc....

Skating in summer and fall leagues is another thing - that isn't readily available in most of MN.

It's money and numbers. Look at the amount of kids playing hockey in the youth programs in these large suburbs and combine with that the expense of playing year round and going to various camps. It's too bad but Hockey has become a rich mans sport.

[cbrooks]

Another reason why these schools might not compete as much is the USHL. I know in my area alot of kids with college hockey potential will go to the USHL in there junior or senior year.

[Bear55]

The Grand Forks team that didn't even make the ND State tourney this year beat Roseau. Not that many teams in ND don't make the state tourney.

Each year there is 1 or 2 teams in ND that could play with anyone in MN and usually those teams are from Grand Forks.

Getting back to the original post; I have a serious question because I don't know the answer - Are the metro teams that are good - loaded with kids from rich families? I know that a lot of people are making do with less income just so that they can live in the small towns where they do. Does that have anything to do with their ability to buy icetime, not have part time jobs as a high school kid, skating in leagues in the summer, etc....

Skating in summer and fall leagues is another thing - that isn't readily available in most of MN.

I will agree with you guys, GF has been putting out some good hockey teams lately and have played well against some of the better MN teams. No doubt they can compete but they are probably a step behind the top MN teams. Roseau got worked over pretty good by Edina yesterday and I wouldn't consider them even in the top 15 AA teams this year. Where a GF team might struggle is with the depth of MN hockey, winning one game is very possible but stringing together several wins against our best is the challenging part.

[Shorelunch]

Originally Posted By: brmuskie

The Grand Forks team that didn't even make the ND State tourney this year beat Roseau. Not that many teams in ND don't make the state tourney.

Each year there is 1 or 2 teams in ND that could play with anyone in MN and usually those teams are from Grand Forks.

Getting back to the original post; I have a serious question because I don't know the answer - Are the metro teams that are good - loaded with kids from rich families? I know that a lot of people are making do with less income just so that they can live in the small towns where they do. Does that have anything to do with their ability to buy icetime, not have part time jobs as a high school kid, skating in leagues in the summer, etc....

Skating in summer and fall leagues is another thing - that isn't readily available in most of MN.

I will agree with you guys, GF has been putting out some good hockey teams lately and have played well against some of the better MN teams. No doubt they can compete but they are probably a step behind the top MN teams. Roseau got worked over pretty good by Edina yesterday and I wouldn't consider them even in the top 15 AA teams this year. Where a GF team might struggle is with the depth of MN hockey, winning one game is very possible but stringing together several wins against our best is the challenging part.

EGF is building a very strong youth program. They and Bemidji have been battling year long for the top of the Pee Wee's. I hope both programs, along with all of the northern MN programs.

I think GF Central would be competitive with Mntka, but the Skippers would win by around 3 goals. Some of the top GFRR teams would give the MN metro teams a good fight too. There's just too many numbers in the MN metro for ND and northern MN to try and compete with.

[Bear55]

There's just too many numbers in the MN metro for ND and northern MN to try and compete with.

This is very true, you have a huge number of hockey players in the cities and the talent seems to consolidate to private schools and some of the other traditional powers who are all fighting to win a state title. I still think the outstate teams can keep up in the future but they are going to have to win with hard work, luck, and maybe a star player or two to pop in a few goals. Its very hard to match the talent and depth that Edina, Tonka, and HM bring to the table. It also makes it all that more special when a tiny town like Roseau can still manage to win state titles.

[cbrooks]

I think shorelunch sum it up pretty good. I'll give the metro teams 2 out of three times they would beat those two region if the top teams were to play each other.

I would like too add that North Dakota only has three high schools that could compete with Minnesota hockey. Grafton/PR would be the other. The rest of the state doesn't have the programs too match the average Minnesota highschool team IMO. You would think Fargo would have a better hockey program but they don't have anything like the city across the river Moorehead has. I always wonder about that.

[Bear55]

I think Fargo has a really good team a few years back, not much since then.

[scsavre]

So is there any correlation to the Colleges hockey being in these Cities? I just cant believe that most of them are bad. Is it the size of these towns? Bemidji is a pretty big northern town. Way bigger than the powerhouse northern teams. So these towns with college hockey are too big, but too small, to be good?

I just dont get it because clearly there are towns smaller that are always good, and clearly there are teams that are bigger that are always good. Are kids in the college towns watching hockey when they should be playing, are they sick of hockey cause they colleges have games every weekend down the road. I just dont get it.

Whoever said that in Bemidji they are more geared toward the outdoors than hockey. That is a pretty good point. I guess someone is shooting the 2,600 bucks out of that zone.

I think coaching is a huge part of the success of the small towns too. You have the powerhouses and it seems there is always a topnotch coach/player coming back to coach. I dont see alot of that in the other towns.

$$$ unreal how much this sport costs to play, makes me sick.

[Bear55]

Ok I will give this a shot.

I agree coaching is one big factor. Another might be how important hockey is the community. In Warroad, Roseau, and the Range cities hockey is part of the culture, you don't see that in places like Mankato. You might also see circumstances where success breeds success, you never heard of Moorhead back in the 70s-80s-early90s but then they start producing some really good teams and establish a good program and wha-la you have an annual contender.

One thing I was surprised to learn was that St Cloud and Rochester funnel all their kids through one youth system. I'm sure it makes sense from a certain standpoint but you have these kids playing together all the way up through Bantams, then they suddenly hit high school and they are all going in different directions and playing with different players at different schools, sounds like a good way to kill any chemistry you build over the years.

Duluth seems to be holding their own, they have picked up AA and A championships over the years and produce a good number of D1 players. I do agree that their should be at least two AA schools in that town but I think most of the talent ends up at East with a few jumping over the Marshall.

Bemidji does seem like it would be a prime location for hockey program and maybe some day they will get it all figured out. Maybe they have always been stuck behind Roseau and Moorhead that is some kind of psychological barrier.

I will cut EastGF some slack because they are a fairly small community. Mankato I just dont know, maybe they just don't care about hockey.

[zepman]

Mankato has all their kids in one program too...they split at the high school level. (see post above). Football and basketball are different though...there, they play on a team based on what high school they'll be going to.

Just not enough kids in our program (Mankato)to have it any other way...two years in a row of DECLINING enrollment in the youth programs too.

A town of 45,000/50,000 and it can only muster up 2 Bantam teams(A,...three PeeWee teams(A,B,C)...four squirt teams(A,B, 2-C's). Not a lot to choose from once they start playing for their respected high schools...and it seems to be getting worse.