Loons and lead thread

[Wave Runner]

While I was typing a response to the thinking of a fellow user, the thread gets pulled.

Am I the only one who thinks the censorship on this board is getting a little aggressive ?

I understand the need for the board to maintain a "clean" environment and I have no qualms with it's desire to "protect" it's paying advertisers but the "free exchange of ideas" seems to be getting quashed a little too often these days.

Reminds me of the Star Tribune.

[Jim W]

Wave runner,

I haven't been on the Open forum much today. I haven't even seen the thread you mention!

I guess I have to disagree about things getting out of control or censorship becoming too aggressive(what ever that implies?)?

However, I will look into this situation and hopefully we all can have an answer clearing at least this one up.

PS> It gets tiresome reminding people how to act respectfully!!

Keep the rods bendin'!!!

Jim W

[Guest]

I'm with Jim on this one. Never saw the thread, don't know what happened to it.

------------------
Paul
[email protected]

[Bogsucker]

Read the article you'll know what it was about

http://www.startribune.com/stories/767/2838186.html

[Guest]

Waverunner,

None of us pulled that thread. Having confirmed that, my guess is it was the original poster. Any member that starts a topic, also has the ability to delete that topic. If they delete the topic all responses go with it.

------------------
Paul
[email protected]

[Wave Runner]

Thanks for the "look-see...."

[GullGuide]

Guys,
It was me. I pulled it.
The thread was going nowhere fast. If you want a clarification feel free to email me.

------------------
>"////=<
Gull Guide Service
fishingminnesota.com/gullguide
Brainerd-Mille Lacs-Willmar
Bemidji-Ottertail

[Wave Runner]

Gullguide,

This was exactly my point. Who and how is "going nowhere fast" defined ? I've seen this phrase used to justify the termination of several threads in the last month or so.

The long term impact of lead in our lakes is going to be a very important topic in the near future. Providing a forum for the exchange of thoughts, even if they become a little "heated" is a good thing I think.

Disappointing...

[BLACKJACK]

After reading the article on loons and lead yesterday, I thought about starting a thread but then got busy, so I was happy to see one out here - only to find out that its more about censorship rather than a good discussion on the pros and cons of lead. Are the censors/moderators afraid that a good discussion is going to hurt the advertisers on this site - because they sell lead products? Have they thought that a good spirted discussion might keep people checking back in regularly to see whats happening - and maybe they'll see something they like and buy it?

Back to lead and loons - if only one sinker ingested by a loon will cause it to die, then something should be done about it. The fact that it also causes eagles and other predators to die when they eat the dead/sick loon makes it more important to do something. Right now its even hard to find the lead alternatives. And when price is factored in, people are going to go with whats cheap. The only way that this is going to change is by government regulation, like they did in requiring steel shot. I have two loons nesting on the pond below our house and its neat listening to them - they're worth protecting!

[This message has been edited by BLACKJACK (edited 05-17-2002).]

[Grabs]

I am not speaking here in respect to anyone imparticular, but I am speaking as an active member who sees the issue of moderation from both sides of the fence.

First off, the site does need to be moderated, we all saw what happend to Fish and Game when there is no moderation. I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement. There are also certain guidelines about what can and cannot be posted to save Rick's advertising dollars, which is what keeps this site running and without those we wouldn't have this great exchange of information. Now the moderators have a tough job because there is a lot of activity on this site, and to keep up with everything has to seem like a lot at times. They really do a thankless job, at least from what the users of this forum see. So we should all take a minute to thank them for their work here.
Thanks guys!

Now from the other point of view, I have seen this site evolve over the last couple of years, and yes the moderation has gotten tighter and tighter. Now there are certain things we can and can not post which we all agree to when registering as a user. BUT, these are the only reasons a fourm administrator should be editing or deleting a post. I have seen it way too many times that a admin has personally felt the topic was "getting out of hand" or "going no where fast" etc, etc. Let the topics get out of hand, keep the offensive language to a limit and let people talk that is what the site is for. As long as we are not affecting the ad dollars there should be no problems with most topics on here. Yes if an link is posted that points to a product for sale, remove it, but if a link is posted for purely informational sake leave it alone. Not all links need to be removed. And especially if it is for a product that is completely unrelated to the products that are sold here.

To everyone on this site, lets enjoy it for its intended purpose, and not abuse it, because if it gets outta hand we will lose it. If you have something you wanna talk about, so then talk about it. Follow the rules and play nice. Admins, keep up the good work, stay within the confines of the rules set forth upon us and let's all have a good time here.

I'll climb off now,......

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[This message has been edited by Grabs (edited 05-17-2002).]

[Wave Runner]

Blackjack, your conservation minded thinking is to be applauded.

I too see loons and eagles regularly at the lake below my cabin. If I can do anything to help preserve these species and others, I consider it a responsibility to do so. I prefer to hope that fisherman would do it on their own rather than through legislation. I'm looking for lead alternatives right now and price is not going to be a major factor.

[Surface Tension]

Were looking at a drop in the bucket here. Sure a lot of the loons tested positive for lead but these were loons that were sick not a random sampleing of the entire population.
Look around do see loon numbers suffering? Enough is enough. You people see a story and your ready to jump on the bandwagon. Your like puppets. For example the story on fish farming. Some of you voiced disgust with out knowing the whole story. One writer and his biosed veiw had half of you sucked in. Thats how crap like leather basketballs gets going. Dont read one article and think your in the know.
If you think lead is a problem then change to tin. Im going to contiune you to make my lead head jigs and use lead sinkers.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 05-17-2002).]

[Wave Runner]

Surface Tension,

Yours is another valid opinion. Just one response. A "drop in the bucket" ???

How many lead headed jigs, lindy rig sinkers and bottom bouncers are lost each year in a lake like Leech Lake for example. Probably best measured in tens of thousands of pounds. Kind of a big bucket I think...

[Jim W]

Hey all,

I personally, appreciate your comments and agree with them! Again, I didn't see the latest thread that got "pulled" and can't comment on whether or not it was an unauthorized link or personal attacks or whatever, that Gullguide made his decision on.

FOr the record, I will stand by his decision!!!!!!

Now, for me, The posts I have "zapped" either had an unauthorized link or, personal attacks to a person/race, or they got WAY off the original posted subject, going no where!!!

I don't believe I need to explain myself when a thread is going no where!! What needs to be defined with "going no where"? .(usually, a locked thread or suggestion to start a new post)

I love a good heated debate! You can ask just about anyone who knows me, I am a stubborn old coot!

However, it appears, on occasion, that some cannot demonstrate proper protocol in arguing or presenting their side to an issue!
They take it personally, in turn, making it personal!!! Thus the proverbial "bombshell" gets dropped!!!

I have NEVER removed a thread because of a threat to sales or competition, if and when it remains with in the said rules!!!!!!!

I again appreciate the comments and opinions. I personally will take heed, thinking long and hard if and when I feel the need to "nuke" something!

Here is a couple things I recommend:

Everyone take a moment to read thoroughly everything before responding!

Obey the websites rules!

DO NOT personally attack anyone!!!

If you have a good argument or wish to share an opinion on a subject, do just that. KEEP IT CIVIL!!!!!! You will never get someone to believe or come over to your way of thinking or understanding by getting worked up or personal!!!!
Plus, it makes for more interesting reading!!!

I have learned from all of you! I love reading good debates. In College, I was in Student Gov't at my college and at the state level. I Have taken part in lobbying at the Capitol for issues I believed in.

SO I can say with some confidence ,I can tell when a subject is going nowhere!

Well, that is my take on it, take it or leave it(my opinion).

Back to fishing already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh did I mention, that we are REAL close to the Smallmouth(and largemouth) opener!!!!??

Keep the rods bendin'!!!

Jim W

[wastewaterguru]

Let's forget about the fact that the loons that are dying have ingested the lead itself and assume they are just drinking the water.

Let's do some simple wastewater math here.

The EPA guideline for lead in drinking water is 15 parts per billion or .015 parts per million.

So for every 15 pounds of lead, you can potentially contaminate a billion pounds of water (120,000,000 gallons).

For every ounce thats 500,000 gallons.

Yes this doesn't take into account that lead won't dissolve very fast and some of that does dissolve forms insoluble salts that sink to the bottom, but just wanted to make sure everyone realizes that it DOESN'T TAKE MUCH.

Just my two cents/

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Guest]

I have yet to see a loon that could swallow my 3 1/8 once bottom bouncer!

Ok, just a little humor there to lighten things up. Yes, the amount of lead lost every year in Mille Lacs and Leech for example is significant but it is certainly not all breaking down and polluting the water. Most of it is just like all the other contimants in the lake. They settle into the bottom, become covered with silt and eventually become part of the lake bottom.

I think surface tension has a good point. The birds being tested are dead and they died for a reason. This number is nothing when compared to the birds still alive. I compare it to the worms that got run over in the driveway on a rainy night. Yes, a bad example but there is some truth to it if you really think about it.

If you were tested most people you would find unhealthy levels of not only lead but many other subastances in their body. Banning all these substances will never happen and I don't see it happening with lead. Be careful when you ask for governement regulation of something, as what you get may be a "knee jerk" reaction and not be a solution that anyone can live with. If you think this can't/won't happen, just do a little more research on the subject.ScottS

[huskminn]

WWG,

Interesting information......I'd love to see some hard data on that.

However, I'd like to talk more about that bass opener.....what do you say, JimW?

[Wave Runner]

ScottS,

You hit the underlying concept on the head.

If we can do something, anything about reducing the number or amount of contaminants that go into the lakes, why not do it ???

[Guest]

I guess it's clear we have to teach some loons to be more responsible and selective. Imagine, ingesting toxic material.

Waterfowl shooters have (mostly) adjusted to the switch from lead to substitute pellets in shotgun shells. Tackle manufacturers are working on substitute materials for lead in sinkers, jigs, and other terminal tackle. If we're sensible about this thing, we can see a transition from lead to substitute materials and we'll ultimately adapt nicely to the switch.

[Guest]

If you are going to ban a few lead sinkers for the fact that they may dislolve and contaminate the water you might as well park your car and boat in the garage and leave them there,turn all the lights off in the house.More water is polluted by the burning of fossil fuels than by a few sinkers.

If a few geese or loons die by the means of actually ingesting the lead sinkers themselves and this causes us to think that lead sinkers should be banned we should think about the effects that the momentum of a car has on these animals.Does this mean we should ban the use of motor vehicles because a few waterfowl die every year from being hit by a car.
Now I understand that these points may sound a little silly but where will it end?Do we want to be that regulated by our government?

I have watched this issue for some time now and believe that it is driven by groups that are out to not only preserve our wildlife(which I do belive in)but also to do away with many of our favorite passtimes.Be carefull of what you support.You may be supporting some thing that will bring an end to what you love to do.

[guideman]

I'm trying to understand why suddenly conservation, has become a dirty word?
As soon as anyone expresses a concern
for our natural world, the PETA police
come out.

Sportsmen are at the forefront of most of these issues. I think we are better served as a group, by leading the way in solving these problems, instead of
looking for someone else to blame.

Ignoring a problem only makes it worse when you finally have to face it. If we as a group can have an impact, just by changing from lead to some other system, then why not lead the way.

I remember back when the DOW chemical company was telling us that DDT wasn't
killing all the Bald Eagles.

Must we always bring a species to the
verge of extinction, before we admit a problem exsist?

Think about it, is it really going to be so much trouble to make the change and do your small part?
The next time you hear a Loon or watch a female with her little ones on her back. Take a moment and ask yourself, is there something I can do to make a difference?

The answer, is yes!

------------------
Terry Sjoberg
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
aceguideservice.com

[This message has been edited by guideman (edited 05-19-2002).]

[Guest]

Waste Water Guru--

So approximately how much lead would it take to pollute a lake the size of Leech Lake or Mille Lacs
to the .015 / billion? Any estimates? Just curious?????

Later..... Dugan!!!

[This message has been edited by Jozie-Dugan (edited 05-19-2002).]

[Guest]

Last year I researched this topic after it was brought up on this forum.All though I was a little biased I thought I should get some facts.Out of all the studies performed by various groups that I found only the studies that were associated with PETA found lead fishing sinkers to be killing waterfowl.And some of these studies the deaths were caused by choking,not high levels fo toxins in the body.How is switching to a substitute going to reduce this.
The major source of lead in our waters is from the buring of fossil fuels.Are we doing enough to reduce this source?Our vehicles have gone from small gas conserving vehicles when the gas prices were high(relative to the cost of living)back to gas consuming big pickups and suv's.Are we first concerned about our environment when we purchase a vehicle that gets a little better fuel milage,or is it our pocketbooks?
I support conservation and protection of our environment but I do not support PETA.
I am not going to say to anyone do not use a lead substitute for sinkers.If a person feels that they want to use a lead substitute go for it.I just do not think that this needs to be regulated by our government.

[This message has been edited by fishhead (edited 05-19-2002).]

[Rick]

A note on moderation and more....

The previous thread was deleted because it was heading towards personal attacks fast (that's what I was told). We don't need to argue that at this point. If it's heading that way we won't allow petty bickering to go on when we catch it.

NOW this thread is MUCH BETTER!!!!

It's a great debate and personally we love it. It's pretty easy really. Keep it civil and pointed towards the issue, not the other person who has an opinion. Opinions that are not personally directed at someone else are welcome, don't attack them, please.

It takes a lot of time to moderate these forums and we DO NOT have to explain every deletion, there just is not enough time to do it. You wouldn't believe how many folks never bother to read the policies or the info at the top of every page.

I'll give you a trial run of what has to be done - Go through EVERY new post EVERY day and make a good response to 20 of them. Do that for a month straight and tell the moderators how wrong they are and how little time they take trying to keep this forum fun and informative.

If you have a good informational link, all you need to do is use the Contact Us link below, send the link and ask to have it authorized. Otherwise, it will most likely be deleted. The Rule "No Unauthorized links is there for a reason." This site is not cheap to keep operational. Good quality is why it is as busy as it is. It's free to you, but not so for us.

It may be easy to sit on the outside and not think about all of the realities that go into making a site pay for itself and really you don't need to because I have to worry about that and I really shouldn't have to explain it all the time, it gets tedious after doing it several times a day. Besides, I have a lot of other work to do.

This site is FREE, just stay within the guidelines posted in the Registration link above.

Will things get tighter? Yes, it probably will. There are getting to be more savvy folks with respect to getting FREE advertising than you might think. There are also a lot of seemingly benign (informational) ways to do that.

Personally I wish it didn't have to be that way. Unfortuantely, we have those out there who will use this free service to push their own money making schemes. I want to improve the services offered to everyone here and KEEP IT FREE. Your support is essential.

Use our sponsors and get some Fishing Gear from us. It all helps.

Tell the folks who want their business or product mentioned to contact us so they can get authorized. We'll take anyone who has a good quality product or service. If everyone contacted me and worked out authorization, we wouldn't have an issue with links at all. All the competition is great as far as we're concerned.

It's pretty simple really, yet there are many who are always looking for the FREE advertising on our dollar (READ-losing improved experience here for YOU). Sorry, but we can't allow it.

Improvement is coming, it's going to cost plenty, and you can thank our sponsors, the folks who supply us products, and those of you who use them. You are truly friends of FishingMinnesota.com

I thank all of you for your participation and very real concerns about censorship. We are doing our best to keep this a fun, friendly, comfortable, family oriented place for everyone who visits.

Your help maintaining this is critical. We want to keep it as open as possible. Support us and help us get more information available and easier/improved interaction with friends here at FM.com ready to roll. It's coming, I guarantee it.

This lead topic is a great debate so far, keep it going.

You are quite right Wave Runner - It's an important topic. Bear in mind, when we lose lead, you are going to be sending a lot of small companies who help keep your prices down - right out the window. Expect rises in prices when that happens.

One other note. The folks working with us are ready to go to non-lead options, so no, we don't necessarily support one over the other. The real question is, what are the facts and is this something being pushed by PETA or PETA sympathizers to price some low end users out of the sport of fishing?

We should make sure the true facts are in front of us and then make the responsible decision.

Personally, I don't have enough info yet to make an informed opinion. Those of you that do, please enlighten us. The great debate continues.

Check out some of the great gear already available here:
http://fishingmn.com/sportgood.html