Who would be in favor or APR in Managed or IH areas? Why?

[certified jumbo]

100% for APR in Managed or IH area's. Meat hunters can shoot doe's and everyone has a chance for a quality buck.

Our group alreadys passes on lots of bucks and our successes have been great. We used to shoot everything, now we are careful on what we shoot, the benefits have been great.

APR all the way!!

[96trigger]

I'm going to do more reading that typing today.

I would like to start by saying that I am pleased with hunting in my area but I do think it could get better. Alot of guys look at Wisconsin and Iowa and wonder why they have it so good. I think many of the people for and against both have valid points. The constant arguments against are:

Against: Kids won't be able to shoot that first small deer.

Reply: Kids will learn to pass on the small bucks just like they learn to throw back walleyes under the limit or not shooting hen pheasants. Once it starts, they will understand this. Many of these kids you are talking about are already practicing QDM on their own properties. However, a large number of them don't have their own land. So practicing this on public land is not feasable.

Against: I don't want more regulations:

Reply: We are already regulated. We had EAB and APR for parts of SEMN during the 3A season this year. While confusing, if something was put written and kept for more than year, the regulations wouldn't seem so overwhelming.

Against: I want to retain the right to shoot what I want.

Reply: The DNR already regulates what we shoot for waterfowl, turkey and pheasants. They regulate how many fish and what size we can keep. Why should deer be different?

Against: Its a minority driving this attitude:

Reply: Recent polling has indicated that the attitude is increasing in certain areas of the state

Against:The only deer I see might be that small 6 pointer.

Reply: I don't think APR would be in any area where the only deer you might see is a small 6 pointer. The restrictions would come where there is a healthy population or over population idealy intensive harvest or managed areas.

Against: What about the Penalty if I do shoot one or make a mistake?

Reply: I would hope that the penalty would be monetary, not punitive. Hunters would face a fine instead of losiing guns and licenses. Also, I would hope this would help people better identify their targets and alleviate any shoot and let lay problems.

Against: We are going to get all the leasers to come and take all the land.

Reply: Its already happening. What if these guys could lease half the land and still have the quality hunt because the state helps them out. This means more money in their pockets because they won't need to lease 1000 acres and manage it themselves. They could lease half of that and have the state help them manage and still leave room for Joe Q public. Saving them money and possibly cutting down on leased land.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Not to get off track but there are still meat hunters who hunt for subsistence and cost effectiveness. Consider that someone in an intensive harvest area took three deer, a mature buck and two yearling does. Say you get about 65 pounds of boneless meat off that buck. Then you get 42 pounds off each mature doe for a total of 149 pounds. If your license and bonus tags are $27 and $14 times two, your total cost minus the bullets or arrows is $55, or $.37 cents a pound. That's if you process yourself and don't include the basic hunting clothes, gun, bow, etc., which are sunken costs. Even if you did pay a processor, in my case, spending $60 per deer, you'd be at $1.57 a pound, which is about a buck a pound cheaper than ground beef much of the year.

I don't think you are getting off track, as this is directly related to many of the arguments against APR's by many (losing an opportunity to get meat).

The numbers you stated, with processing fees, again represent a best case scenario. Whitetail deer are estimated to contain 40% meat from their field dressed weight - so in a BEST CASE scenario you will get 40% of the dressed weight(assuming excellent trimming, no waste because of shot up quarters, etc.). This is rarely the case. So in your example, you obviously were successful at shooting large deer and getting an excellent return on your meat. At $60 a deer, you are also getting a great rate on processing (as many places I've heard are around a $100). I also noticed your example did not include gas or additional expenses you incurred to hunt that you would not have otherwise spent in your day to day life - maybe you were hunting just behind your house, which is very possible.

Now for the cost of beef. Last time I was at Sams Club/Walmart they were selling cases (80lbs) of ground beef (80% lean) for slightly under $1.50/pound. I would imagine that you could get a similar rate at other Walmarts or grocery stores if you ordered it in.

My sole point is that for most people hunting is not the cheapest way to get meat. Especially when it is not guaranteed that you will be successful. So people who are in financial trouble are putting cash on the line that might not yield any return. It is my opinion as a rural MN resident and hunter (based on what I see and talk with people about), most people who truly struggle and don't have alot of resources, the ones who actually need the meat for food, aren't going to worry about license costs or regulations. They are going to take a deer when they need it.

AND FINALLY, I still don't think APR's are the best means of acheiving a healthier herd ratio (I think the DNR could do the same thing with less intrusive means), but I am in favor of any attempt the DNR would make at this point.

[PEATMOSS]

I will gladly jump on the APR bandwagon as soon as our professional big game biologists tell me that there is a sound biological reason for doing so. I'm talking about our own state game managers, not some out of state hired gun that goes around getting paid to promote this stuff.

Right now, if I accidently shoot a doe without a doe permit or a buck without a valid tag to put on it, IT IS A CRIME. APR's would CRIMINALIZE the taking of smaller bucks for the sole purpose of feeding this ego driven big antler mentality.

Funny how most folks are for freedom and keeping government off our backs with unnescessary rules and regulations only until it serves their own self interest. I just can't quite come to grips with how so many folks seem to feel it's ok to force their beliefs on others. Next time "the liberals" push some silly law and you're wondering, how do they get the nerve, I guess you'll know.

[96trigger]

Quote:

APR's would CRIMINALIZE the taking of smaller bucks for the sole purpose of feeding this ego driven big antler mentality.

If this were the case, I would be opposed to it as I have state earlier. I would hate to see any punitive penalty for an error in judgement, we are, after all, human. However, I don't think that would be the case and that you are jumping to conclusions.

I also think that there is plenty or research done by credible biologists on the benefits of age structure. They don't need to be from Minnesota.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I will gladly jump on the APR bandwagon as soon as our professional big game biologists tell me that there is a sound biological reason for doing so. I'm talking about our own state game managers, not some out of state hired gun that goes around getting paid to promote this stuff.

Right now, if I accidently shoot a doe without a doe permit or a buck without a valid tag to put on it, IT IS A CRIME. APR's would CRIMINALIZE the taking of smaller bucks for the sole purpose of feeding this ego driven big antler mentality.

Funny how most folks are for freedom and keeping government off our backs with unnescessary rules and regulations only until it serves their own self interest. I just can't quite come to grips with how so many folks seem to feel it's ok to force their beliefs on others. Next time "the liberals" push some silly law and you're wondering, how do they get the nerve, I guess you'll know.

So would you rather we didn't have a DNR and any regulations on deer hunting? Or are the laws we have "OK" but not any new ones?

[PEATMOSS]

I am not opposed to any law, rule or regulation that is biologically based. Our DNR has done a fantastic job with our deer herd.

[Wobbler]

I have read this over and over the past few days and I feel I know both sides really well. It would be tough in MN with all the tradition we have to go to APR. I look at my own experience. My first few bucks were small bucks when I was 12 and 13. 25 years later I now wait for a mature 8 point or better. Everyone in my hunting party (4) shoots only 8 points or better. We have shot mature 6's without brow tines but we know if it is mature or not. My 6 year old son is going to go hunting in a few years and I hope he can shoot whatever he pleases. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. My first buck a 4 point was a trophy and every time I look at the rack I can still remember how proud I was of it and how I went to my 6th grade class strutting!

I think what people are frustrated about when I read this is you have those in favor or not in favor. I guess to me it should be whatever a person chooses. I voluntarily CHOOSE to do APR where I hunt (Lottery are 122). We do not shoot does, we do not shoot small bucks, we hunt PUBLIC land along with our 80 private land. All our bucks this year PUBLIC land all 11 bucks we saw smaller than 8 walked and I know of one of those getting shot by the neighbors.

Our success rate is 100% the last 5 years 8 points or better. Some year we are going to get tag soup but that is the chance we take. If all I wanted was meat I would hunt at the grocery store because it is way cheaper! Now when my son comes he will shoot what he chooses. My dad, brother, and Brother-in-law are fine with that because that is how we started. I know all those in favor of APR most started out shooting small bucks. Those new hunters should also experience that feeling too.

What I think all of us should do is have a VOLUNTARY APR. Who needs a rule or a law. Practice it. Some of you hunting that have hunted 15 years or longer so you should be out of the stage filling tags ("Brown is Down") and into the stage of looking at managing your hunting area and cherishing the experience of the hunt. Really a "hunter" who shoots 4 deer is not a hunter but a shooter to me. Hunting is knowing when I pull the trigger I made a choice and will live with the 1 shot I take and am satisfied with the deer and I do not need to shoot any more deer.

We made a CHOICE to not shoot does although we had 2 tags the last 3 years and now our area is a lottery area. Funny thing is we saw more deer this year then ever. I have read and heard from others did not see many deer all over the state. People blame wolves (Funny our party saw 23 over 9 days of hunting) and still saw plenty of deer. People blame the DNR (Funny because they lowered bag limits and knew the winter was not good for deer). What really did it in my opinion everyone shooting everything they saw because they had a tag and hunters not managing their area themselves. "Brown is Down Theory" If there are 10 deer per square mile and your party shoots 7 or 8 what do you expect? just because you have a bonus, bonus, bonus tag does not mean you need to fill it.

So for those who do APR like me I commend you because you are making a choice in managing your deer herd for the future like I have. I challenge the rest of you who have hunted a long time (I'm 37, 25 years of hunting in) to try some form of letting smaller bucks go and shooting mature bucks or does if you like. In our 5 years of doing this in a Lottery area the number of deer sightings up, smaller bucks can grow up, and we have shot some dandy bucks! I can't wait for my son to shoot his first buck and walk over and see that big smile however big that buck is because while I practice APR, he needs to figure that out on his own and when he is ready to make that choice for himself.

[PEATMOSS]

96trigger, right now, if you make "an error in judgement" you're gonna get a ticket. Why would you assume that with APR's it would be different?

[96trigger]

If I make an error on antler point restrictions, I would gladly pay a fine. It was my fault for not better identifying the target. I would not be in favor of APR if they would take away my gun or my hunting priveledges. I think mistakes do happen. However, taking a deer out of season or with a spot light is not an "error in judgement". I would never try to compare the two. but feel free if you can make a connection.

I keep hearing the youth, youth, youth. Fine, we already let them hunt every season available. Lets give them an any deer tag with their youth license also.

I personally look forward to the day when I can take my kid hunting and watch him get excited about seeing a buck. If he can't shoot it, it will be a great learning experience for him. Might teach him something about waiting, following rules, and perserverence. I know that there will be a doe that comes by sooner or later, he will not need to take that forkhorn. Him not hunting because he never got to shoot a deer never crosses my mind now, as it didn't cross my mind when I was 12 and went 3 years of hunting withought shooting a deer until I was 15.

[PEATMOSS]

If APR are put into place, then that is the law. If one violates the law either on purpose or thru "an error in judgement"then they have committed a crime. You can sugarcoat this any way you want to, but what you folks are trying to do is criminalize shooting deer that don't have enough bony inedible material sticking out of the top of their head.

[96trigger]

No, I believe you are trying to criminalize it.

I have said what I think about the penalty repeatedly, you can put whatever spin on it you like.

[Red Miller]

Error in judgement or criminal act....what becomes of the dead deer? Is the game warden going to end up with pickup full of dead spikes and fork horns and a book full of $25 coupons? What about the erroneous hunters tag? Is he done for the year? What if he repeats the violation? I can see a real Pandora's box being opened.

[sticknstring]

Perhaps one of the C.O.'s from Missouri or Pennsylvania could answer that one for ya. Heck, we've experimented with AR's here in MN. Maybe Lou could chime in and post some legal ramifications if caught dropping a forkhorn in one of the state parks ARs hunt.

People are going to break the rules regardless of what the regulations are. Look at all the poaching & baiting that goes on now. It'll always be something, but I surely don't see a list of evils that would stem from some quality change. These terrible things could turn into great things if given a chance.