APRs in Lottery Areas?

[96trigger]

BobT, are when you mention taking "smaller" bucks are you talking about young bucks, or culling small bucks?

If you are talking about culling small bucks, I think that you need to realize that with age, even thouse "small" bucks can eventually get a decent rack. It is also proven that culling for bucks is only effective in pen raised deer.

If you are talking about young bucks, yes, there is a slight contradiction, but in many intensive harvest areas, there is a high doe population. What we are talking about is harvesting a doe INSTEAD of taking that small buck. It would be a 1 to 1 ratio. Replacing one doe, with one buck. In some cases, it might even increase the hunter success rate. Lets just say Bob, that you shoot that small buck on opening morning. Your hunt by yourself so you consider yourself done because you didn't buy a bonus. Maybe, if there was APR, you buy the bonus tag and pass on the small buck but shoot a doe. Now, you are still sitting there with a regular tag. Maybe, you continue hunting, and eventually get a buck that meets the regulations. Instead of getting one small buck and being done, you have now harvested two helping cut down the population.

It really depends on what side of the court your on Bob.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I don't rasie cattle, but when breeding them, do you not want the biggest bull breeding the herd? You want those superior genes to be carried on in the herd, right?

Apply that logic to APR's and QDM. Isn't it going against the grain, per say, to promote this. Don't you want to take out the little ones and leave more big ones to improve genetics?

I'm asking this for more perspective on this thought... (My uncle and I talked a lot about this this season and he brought up this point a lot). I think it makes sense, however, it's completely different between captive vs wild populations.. however, it still makes some sense.

[Bear55]

APR in intensive areas? Maybe I need an education but what is APR? That's Antler Point Restriction, right?

If I'm correct, wouldn't this be detrimental in an intensive harvest area? After all, isn't the reason it's an intensive harvest area is because there are too many deer?

By requiring hunters who take the smaller bucks from this area to basically not take any means we would allow the lower gene pool varieties to continue breeding. How does that improve the quality of the remaining bucks?

BobT

By not takeing as many small bucks hunters would harvest more does and help reduce the population.

My question to you is how can you tell which bucks are in a lower gene pool when they are 1.5 year old? Even if a buck reaches an old age it is based more on his own intelligence and luck to survive the onslaught of hunters. Right now most all the bucks are shot long before they ever reach their genetic potential anyway so I don't see how you can even determine if the genes in a given area are good/bad based on the few bucks that reach a mature age.

Like others have said many of the young bucks do plenty of breeding. I read an article in Deer and Deer Hunting that said in a good year, a wild mature buck will breed about 8 does over the course of the rut. If you think about it that sounds about right. There is no way a mature buck can even come close to breeding all the does in an area, especially when a majority of them come in to estrus at the same time.

[sticknstring]

Quote:

it's completely different between captive vs wild populations

You said it, man.

Quote:

in a good year, a wild mature buck will breed about 8 does over the course of the rut.

Maybe in a banner year like 2003 where he's got all the immature bucks roping does and tying them up spread eagle to trees. On average, a buck will sire 3-4 fawns.

[96trigger]

Brule, APR really would not have any effect on what you are saying. What we are talking bout here is age. You are talking genetics. That 8 point basket at 1.5 years old will still have the same genetics as a 175 class 5.5 year old.

I think some of you think of this in terms of biggest, best, strongest, etc.... Try eliminating all that and just think in terms of AGE.

Older deer, bigger racks, better able to breed. Younger deer, smaller racks, try like heck to breed but don't always get the job done.

Also when breeding cattle, you have about one bull per 30 head of cows, if you have 60 head, you need a second MATURE bull. If you have slaughtered all your calves, only half of your cows get bred.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Older deer, bigger racks, better able to breed. Younger deer, smaller racks, try like heck to breed but don't always get the job done.

Also when breeding cattle, you have about one bull per 30 head of cows, if you have 60 head, you need a second MATURE bull. If you have slaughtered all your calves, only half of your cows get bred.

I see what you're saying with age. No doubt that 99% of the immature bucks will grow into "trophy" animals given enough time. However, what I quoted above ties right into the cattle breeding logic, does it not? With more big, mature bucks left out there to breed, won't more does be bred by the mature deer if the little ones are taken out and the genetics of the big boys will spred, leading to more bucks reaching greater sizes (the ones that survive to an older age)?

[Bear55]

I don't rasie cattle, but when breeding them, do you not want the biggest bull breeding the herd? You want those superior genes to be carried on in the herd, right?

Apply that logic to APR's and QDM. Isn't it going against the grain, per say, to promote this. Don't you want to take out the little ones and leave more big ones to improve genetics?

I'm asking this for more perspective on this thought... (My uncle and I talked a lot about this this season and he brought up this point a lot). I think it makes sense, however, it's completely different between captive vs wild populations.. however, it still makes some sense.

I will try and answer the best I can but its a complicated issue. In a balanced deer herd, 1:1 buck/doe ratio the big mature strong deer will do most of the breeding and the little guys will be watching from the sidelines. When these little buck stay out of the way they also help themselves and the future of the heard by not burning up as much energy chasing does and they have a better chance at surviving the winter. Now in a wild herd with many more does than mature bucks, just about all the bucks get in the mix because the few mature bucks can not come close to breeding all the does even if they can easily run off the small bucks. There are just too many does in estrus at the same time for this to be possible. I have witnessed on several occasions a young buck chase a doe around my stand for hours. I always hope a mature buck will be along to chase off the little guy, most of the time this never happens and the young buck eventually breeds the doe. Even now some mature bucks make it through the season, if there were more mature bucks around many would still make it through the season and breed more does and take some of the breeding responsibility off the younger deer.

Now when it comes to genes you might as well throw them out the window in a wild herd of deer, there is no way to control the gene pool. There is also no way to determine which deer has the superior genes, that small fork someone just shot might be a booner some day, while a big mature 130 class 8 pointer might breed more does just because he's bigger, not because he has superior genes. From what I have seen in our state if a deer gets to 3.5 to 4.5 and older he will be a trophy to 99% of the hunters out there. Even if a deer has very poor genes, which I think is rare in most areas, they will still probably be a trophy to most hunters.

[96trigger]

Quote:

With more big, mature bucks left out there to breed, won't more does be bred by the mature deer if the little ones are taken out and the genetics of the big boys will spred, leading to more bucks reaching greater sizes

Yes, you are right, but how do we get more mature bucks?

There are probably as many 1.5 year old bucks that get shot than 2.5-4.5 year old bucks. If all of those 1.5 year old bucks survive to 2.5, and only half of them get shot, you have now significantly increased the # of mature bucks (2.5 and older) to be able to breed in one year.

Will there be a year where the harvest is down in those areas, probably. But it will only be one year.

[sticknstring]

Quote:

I will try and answer the best I can but its a complicated issue. In a balanced deer herd, 1:1 buck/doe ratio the big mature strong deer will do most of the breeding and the little guys will be watching from the sidelines.

Not true. Yearlings & 2 1/2's do plenty of breeding, even in well-balanced herds.

[Bear55]

With more big, mature bucks left out there to breed, won't more does be bred by the mature deer if the little ones are taken out and the genetics of the big boys will spred, leading to more bucks reaching greater sizes (the ones that survive to an older age)?

I think a major issue, at least if you are a mature buck, is there aren't enough of you around to breed all the does. It kind of a myth that a mature buck will breed all the does in a given area. Right now I would say the mature bucks that made it have run themselves almost to death breeding as many does as they can. Which isn't very many to begin with, I threw 8 out there, stick thinks it was half that many and he very well could be right. The younger bucks pick up the leftovers. Even worse somes does just does get bread because there wasn't enough bucks to go around, then they are bread in the 2nd rut but that leads to late born fawns and they don't have a strong as a chance to make it through the winter than a fawn born a month earlier.

[Bear55]

Quote:

I will try and answer the best I can but its a complicated issue. In a balanced deer herd, 1:1 buck/doe ratio the big mature strong deer will do most of the breeding and the little guys will be watching from the sidelines.

Not true. Yearlings & 2 1/2's do plenty of breeding, even in well-balanced herds.

I might have worded that a little too strongly, I think I have seen studies with penned deer and DNR test, even in a balanced herd the young bucks do breed, but I wand to say 70-75% of the does are bread by the 3.5 and older bucks. Don't quote me on those numbers because my memory is a little foggy. In the wild I would say the number favor the younger deer.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I think a major issue, at least if you are a mature buck, is there aren't enough of you around to breed all the does. It kind of a myth that a mature buck will breed all the does in a given area. Right now I would say the mature bucks that made it have run themselves almost to death breeding as many does as they can.

Again, doesn't this go along with the thought process that the bigger deer should be left to breed and the little guys should be taken out?

This would promote a healthy herd, like the QDM crowd touts and strive for.

(FWIW, I'm not necessarily for this, I'm just bringing another perspective to the coversation)

[96trigger]

Brule, How are we going to get more mature deer? There aren't enough right now, is continuing what we are doing going to produce more mature deer?

(Also, I am very pleased with deer hunting in my area, it could stay the same for all I care, but I do think it could get even better)

P.S. Great discussion so far. Glad that both sides are staying open minded.

[BobT]

Originally Posted By: BRULEDRIFTER

I don't rasie cattle, but when breeding them, do you not want the biggest bull breeding the herd? You want those superior genes to be carried on in the herd, right?

Apply that logic to APR's and QDM. Isn't it going against the grain, per say, to promote this. Don't you want to take out the little ones and leave more big ones to improve genetics?

I'm asking this for more perspective on this thought... (My uncle and I talked a lot about this this season and he brought up this point a lot). I think it makes sense, however, it's completely different between captive vs wild populations.. however, it still makes some sense.

I will try and answer the best I can but its a complicated issue. In a balanced deer herd, 1:1 buck/doe ratio the big mature strong deer will do most of the breeding and the little guys will be watching from the sidelines. When these little buck stay out of the way they also help themselves and the future of the heard by not burning up as much energy chasing does and they have a better chance at surviving the winter. Now in a wild herd with many more does than mature bucks, just about all the bucks get in the mix because the few mature bucks can not come close to breeding all the does even if they can easily run off the small bucks. There are just too many does in estrus at the same time for this to be possible. I have witnessed on several occasions a young buck chase a doe around my stand for hours. I always hope a mature buck will be along to chase off the little guy, most of the time this never happens and the young buck eventually breeds the doe. Even now some mature bucks make it through the season, if there were more mature bucks around many would still make it through the season and breed more does and take some of the breeding responsibility off the younger deer.

Now when it comes to genes you might as well throw them out the window in a wild herd of deer, there is no way to control the gene pool. There is also no way to determine which deer has the superior genes, that small fork someone just shot might be a booner some day, while a big mature 130 class 8 pointer might breed more does just because he's bigger, not because he has superior genes. From what I have seen in our state if a deer gets to 3.5 to 4.5 and older he will be a trophy to 99% of the hunters out there. Even if a deer has very poor genes, which I think is rare in most areas, they will still probably be a trophy to most hunters.

What you’re saying here makes sense. By reducing the doe population we would be promoting APR naturally because it would increase the competition element between the bucks. Ergo, the more aggressive, larger, “better quality” bucks will do most of the breeding of future generations.

This also raises another question. With this in mind, would we really need to make APR mandatory in order to achieve the same objective?

[96trigger]

Quote:

This also raises another question. With this in mind, would we really need to make APR mandatory in order to achieve the same objective?

Many private landowners are already doing this. It would be nice if John Q public would try it also, but on public land, when you can actually see that 6 pointer you just let go walk to the guy 300 yards away and gets shot, I think it gets tougher.

Bob, I also respect that right now people can shoot what they want, and that is great. The reason I am even semi-behind this is because I hunt in an area where there is no shortage of deer. I feel lucky enough to be able to let deer go by, knowing that I'll be able to harvest one (at least a doe) eventually if I put in the time.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Brule, How are we going to get more mature deer? There aren't enough right now, is continuing what we are doing going to produce more mature deer?

Well, from what I see in ODN and on TV there sure seems to be plenty of mature deer already in the state. (Another reason why I think APR restrictions are pointless) But, maybe by thinning out the little guys and the does to reduce competition may help? There are always deer that will make it.

Or something we surely can look foward to farther down the road.. NO HUNTING ALLOWED! Between the anti's and the metro folks and animal lovers that buy up all the land, and if hunting turns into strictly a "trophy" pusuit that squeezes out the little guy (us), we can forget about harvesting a quarter million deer a year and the rich folks will have all the mature bucks to choose from that they want.

Just sayin.

[Bear55]

Again, doesn't this go along with the thought process that the bigger deer should be left to breed and the little guys should be taken out?

This would promote a healthy herd, like the QDM crowd touts and strive for.

The problem with that is where do you get all your mature breeding bucks when you shoot most of them when they are very young. We can pretend that there are alot of mature bucks out there that we never see, but with all the pressure put on these deer I don't think that is the case like years ago. If you shoot a mature buck on public land, take a close look at him when you are skinning him out, a lot of times he has a old wound and was able to survive. Not to many bucks live to be old without some smarts and a lot of luck to get through their younger dumber years. Even for a public land buck to make it to 3.5 years of age almost seems like a maricle these days.

[Bear55]

Or something we surely can look foward to farther down the road.. NO HUNTING ALLOWED! Between the anti's and the metro folks and animal lovers that buy up all the land, and if hunting turns into strictly a "trophy" pusuit that squeezes out the little guy (us), we can forget about harvesting a quarter million deer a year and the rich folks will have all the mature bucks to choose from that they want.

Just sayin.

Brule this has already been happening for years, and will continue to happen. A lot of it is QDM guys with deep pockets who are sick of not seeing any mature deer, I don't blame them either. Land is and alwasy has been in limited supply. Access is limited every year, and it will condinue this way forever. Often these days a hunters success is more closely tied to the ground you hunt.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I can see your points, Bear and Trigger. Like I said, I was only brining that into the conversation as a different perspective.

I still think the QDM proponents down-play the population of big bucks in this state, though.... BIG TIME!

But then again, this state is so diverse that you can't go 100 miles without the lanscape significantly changing.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I still think the QDM proponents down-play the population of big bucks in this state, though.... BIG TIME!

First off, everyone's idea of big is different. Many people will look at a 125" deer as huge, many others will never see one that big, and others will pass deer like that without second thought.

That said, I don't think that most people down-play the number of mature bucks. Obviously there are going to be isolated pockets where there are good numbers of mature deer, however, it has been my experience and it is my opinion from what I have read on this and other forums, that in most of the state people generally are of the opinion that mature bucks make up a disproportionately small percentage of the herd where they hunt. That is what I would like to see change is the percentage of mature deer. In some areas, mature might not always equal "big". But I think it is a problem when only 1 out of 10 (or more) bucks is a mature buck, that is not within the natural balance.

That is not to say that there are not any big or mature bucks. As there are. It is just the opinion of some groups of people that the number is disproportionately low.

[MUSKY18]

I was listening to an outdoor show on the radio the other morning on the way to work. They had the head DNR guy for that area on the phone talking bout the deer harvest. He said that bucks under the age of 2 comprimise more than 60% of the buck harvest. So look at it this way......6 out of 10 bucks under 2 are getting blasted by hunters, say 2 more fall prey to the elements or predators during the winter, now all of a sudden out of those 10 bucks, you have two that survive til the next hunting season and are our hope to breed the does. Now, with the amount of does to be bred, can these two bucks do it all? I am sure they will give it the ol college try, but........

I know in the area that I hunt, as I posted previously, seeing a deer over the age of 2.5 is very rare. This year was the first year in many that we went to a lottery system in our area, and I can see why. Very low deer numbers. We have stands that are a "given" for deer, have one stand that has produced at least 2 or more deer every season for 10 years, it put up a big zero this year. I know that the thoughts are to have APR in Intensive and Managed areas, but I would love to see it in our lottery area so that the number of bucks would increase just because they would't be getting shot. My line of thinking is APR will let us see more and older bucks. Probably not the same line of thinking like everyone, but how I feel about it!

[heat checker]

I was listening to an outdoor show on the radio the other morning on the way to work. They had the head DNR guy for that area on the phone talking bout the deer harvest. He said that bucks under the age of 2 comprimise more than 60% of the buck harvest. So look at it this way......6 out of 10 bucks under 2 are getting blasted by hunters, say 2 more fall prey to the elements or predators during the winter, now all of a sudden out of those 10 bucks, you have two that survive til the next hunting season and are our hope to breed the does. Now, with the amount of does to be bred, can these two bucks do it all? I am sure they will give it the ol college try, but........

6 out of 10 bucks TAKEN are under 2 yrs, the actual percentage of bucks taken out of the herd of 2 yr olds and younger could very well be much higher, and probably is on marginal ground with heavy pressure!

[Wobbler]

I have read this over and over the past few days and I feel I know both sides really well. It would be tough in MN with all the tradition we have to go to APR. I look at my own experience. My first few bucks were small bucks when I was 12 and 13. 25 years later I now wait for a mature 8 point or better. Everyone in my hunting party (4) shoots only 8 points or better. We have shot mature 6's without brow tines but we know if it is mature or not. My 6 year old son is going to go hunting in a few years and I hope he can shoot whatever he pleases. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. My first buck a 4 point was a trophy and every time I look at the rack I can still remember how proud I was of it and how I went to my 6th grade class strutting!

I think what people are frustrated about when I read this is you have those in favor or not in favor. I guess to me it should be whatever a person chooses. I voluntarily CHOOSE to do APR where I hunt (Lottery are 122). We do not shoot does, we do not shoot small bucks, we hunt PUBLIC land along with our 80 private land. All our bucks this year PUBLIC land all 11 bucks we saw smaller than 8 walked and I know of one of those getting shot by the neighbors.

Our success rate is 100% the last 5 years 8 points or better. Some year we are going to get tag soup but that is the chance we take. If all I wanted was meat I would hunt at the grocery store because it is way cheaper! Now when my son comes he will shoot what he chooses. My dad, brother, and Brother-in-law are fine with that because that is how we started. I know all those in favor of APR most started out shooting small bucks. Those new hunters should also experience that feeling too.

What I think all of us should do is have a VOLUNTARY APR. Who needs a rule or a law. Practice it. Some of you hunting that have hunted 15 years or longer so you should be out of the stage filling tags ("Brown is Down") and into the stage of looking at managing your hunting area and cherishing the experience of the hunt. Really a "hunter" who shoots 4 deer is not a hunter but a shooter to me. Hunting is knowing when I pull the trigger I made a choice and will live with the 1 shot I take and am satisfied with the deer and I do not need to shoot any more deer.

We made a CHOICE to not shoot does although we had 2 tags the last 3 years and now our area is a lottery area. Funny thing is we saw more deer this year then ever. I have read and heard from others did not see many deer all over the state. People blame wolves (Funny our party saw 23 over 9 days of hunting) and still saw plenty of deer. People blame the DNR (Funny because they lowered bag limits and knew the winter was not good for deer). What really did it in my opinion everyone shooting everything they saw because they had a tag and hunters not managing their area themselves. "Brown is Down Theory" If there are 10 deer per square mile and your party shoots 7 or 8 what do you expect? just because you have a bonus, bonus, bonus tag does not mean you need to fill it.

So for those who do APR like me I commend you because you are making a choice in managing your deer herd for the future like I have. I challenge the rest of you who have hunted a long time (I'm 37, 25 years of hunting in) to try some form of letting smaller bucks go and shooting mature bucks or does if you like. In our 5 years of doing this in a Lottery area the number of deer sightings up, smaller bucks can grow up, and we have shot some dandy bucks! I can't wait for my son to shoot his first buck and walk over and see that big smile however big that buck is because while I practice APR, he needs to figure that out on his own and when he is ready to make that choice for himself.

[wh1stler]

....He said that bucks under the age of 2 comprimise more than 60% of the buck harvest.

[BobT]

Quote:

This also raises another question. With this in mind, would we really need to make APR mandatory in order to achieve the same objective?

Many private landowners are already doing this. It would be nice if John Q public would try it also, but on public land, when you can actually see that 6 pointer you just let go walk to the guy 300 yards away and gets shot, I think it gets tougher.

Bob, I also respect that right now people can shoot what they want, and that is great. The reason I am even semi-behind this is because I hunt in an area where there is no shortage of deer. I feel lucky enough to be able to let deer go by, knowing that I'll be able to harvest one (at least a doe) eventually if I put in the time.

Do you think imposing APR is beneficial unless it is done on some broad-based level? What I mean is, would it be very effective or beneficial to do this for one area here and there? In my mind’s eye, I’d be more apt to believe it wouldn’t be very beneficial unless a group of hunting areas were involved to offset some of the overlapping of deer home ranges.

For example, I hunt area 175. If only 175 was designated for APR while all the areas around were not, what’s the chance we wouldn’t see any real benefit? I would think an entire county area might stand a better chance for success.