9mm HANDGUNS

[Big A]

BobT,

Hollow points are designed to expand on impact, decreasing penetration, and disrupting more tissue. They should "mushroom". They shouldnt shatter. Not to say a couple fragments wont chip off pending on what the bullet hits and how fast its traveling. But that comes with every type of bullet.

if you are thinking of using a .44 for deer hunting. The hollow point will work very well.

[sparkydm]

Originally Posted By: sparkydm

BobT

Yes, sometimes there are lead fragments left behind when the bullet strikes a major bone. California has banned lead projectiles to protect other critters that may feed on lead infested carcasses. The latest uproar was last year I think when lead fragments were found in food shelf ground venison. The trend is toward lead-free bullets such as the Barnes all copper X bullet. Other manufacturers are following suit. I tried these bullets in handloads for deer this season and two deer died as a result. I was unable to get opinions on their performance from the dead deer however.

I wasn't relating my question to last year's fiasco. I just heard that hollow points have a tendency to shatter on impact compared the a solid bullet. Is there any truth to that or is my information wrong? I'm curious because I do have some hollow points for my .44 and have hesitated to use them for this reason.

I'm not a bullet expert either BobT. personally I wouldn't worry about it since I butcher my own meat. If you're concerned my advice would be to contact the maker and ask them what the bullet was designed for and what you can expect from it.

[sparkydm]

Big A,

Is there another cartridge similar to the 5.7x28 you could compare it to for size and power? I've heard of it, but I don't know much about it. Do other makers besides FNH chamber it? How does recoil compare to a 9mm compact pistol(I carry a Kel-Tec P-11)?

[Big A]

Sparkydm,

The 5.7x28mm is a .224 caliber bullet that measures 1.594 inches in total length. It is comparable to a .22 hornet. The .22 hornet has been around for a looong time and nobody squaked once about it being armor piercing. The 5.7 came out and everyone cried foul... didnt make much sense. Both rounds are armor piercing.

The 5.7 round available to the public is the ss197sr.That round is not armor piercing. It has a blue soft point tip. There are several other rounds available to military and Law Enforcement personnel that are different colors and powers. All of those are armor piercing. These rounds will yaw and expand when making contact with their target. Creating a devastating wound channel. Hydrostatic shock should easily come into play with a round like this.

FNH manufactures there own ammo. Thus it is readily available and very well priced. About $24 for 50 rounds civilian price. LE/Military can get it at $18/box. If you think about it. Winchester launches a million rounds of 9mm out. Everyone who owns any 9mm can buy it. Where as FNH puts out a million rounds of 5.7x28mm ammo. There customers ALONE are the beneficiaries. Ammo is easy to get.

The recoil does not compare to a 9mm compact. Its incredible. For an experienced shooter, this round will cause hardly any recoil whatsoever. I have heard it described as a cross between a .22 caliber and 9mm...

Dont get me wrong. There is a some punch and a little kick. But the key word is LITTLE. Cuz there is not much of it when your used to shooting something larger.

I feel the FNH 5.7x28mm is in a class of its own. It is hard to compare to anything else for size and power. The bullet will easily travel 1800 feet per second and strikes its target with a velocity never before seen from a semi -automatic handgun. In fact, some of the LE/military rounds can reach over 2000 fps.

and Y E S

I WILL BE SHOOTING A DEER WITH IT (hunting). NOTHING UNETHICAL ABOUT THIS OR A 9MM. THEY ARE DEVASTATING ROUNDS. CORRECT SHOT PLACEMENT. DONE AND DONE.

I should mention that I have seen 4 deer shot with the 5.7 this year. I witnessed two with my own two eyes. And shot two with my own two hands. POWERFULL round.. to say the least. Worked excellently.

[TimR]

BobT,

Interesting you brought this up. I have several 265 grain .429 Hornady Flat Point mushroomed bullets that I've retrieved from deer. Weight retention was excellent - in the 90+% range. These were shot out of a .444 Marlin Rifle.

This year, I retrieved what was left of a 240 grain .429 Hornady HP XTP (hollowpoint) out of a deer. All I could find was the copper shell, and the largest lead fragment I found was no bigger than #2 shot. All the lead was missing. This was out of a .44 pistol.

Shot placements were similar - Ribs.

Now, I could have missed a large lead slug when gutting. But the fact remains that there was no lead left in the cup of the HP/XTP, and the flatpoints, driven to a higher velocity, mushroomed and retained the weight better.

Tim

I wasn't relating my question to last year's fiasco. I just heard that hollow points have a tendency to shatter on impact compared the a solid bullet. Is there any truth to that or is my information wrong? I'm curious because I do have some hollow points for my .44 and have hesitated to use them for this reason.

[sparkydm]

Big A,

Thanks for answering my questions. That some good info! By the way, was talking to one of my LE friends last night. The reason they switched to .40's and .45's was due to ONE incident where their 9MM's didn't have much effect on a knife wielding, drug infested attacker. A third officer with a .40 stopped the guy with a double tap to the sternum and shoulder. The guy took 12 9MM's to the chest and stomach before being stopped by the .40. My friend stated that that doesn't happen everyday and 99 times out of 100 a 9MM is quite effective. Since they had a close call(the guy finally dropped 6 feet from them) they decided to switch. Thanks again for the info, I'm quite intrigued with this round.

[Svinekotelett]

using a 9mm for deer is kinda sick, just stop and think about it,

[Dave S]

Big A,

By the way, was talking to one of my LE friends last night. The reason they switched to .40's and .45's was due to ONE incident where their 9MM's didn't have much effect on a knife wielding, drug infested attacker. A third officer with a .40 stopped the guy with a double tap to the sternum and shoulder. The guy took 12 9MM's to the chest and stomach before being stopped by the .40.

This only strengthens the fact that a 9MM is not a good caliber for deer. If any human, I mean ANY human can withstand that and keep going, a deer will take a lot more. They are a far superior animal to humans when it comes to a will to survive and can take far more.

[MinDak Hunter]

Big A said,"I WILL BE SHOOTING A DEER WITH IT (hunting). NOTHING UNETHICAL ABOUT THIS OR A 9MM. THEY ARE DEVASTATING ROUNDS. CORRECT SHOT PLACEMENT. DONE AND DONE."

Just because you YELL it doesn't make it so... Just because you can kill a deer with a .380 auto doesn't make it ethical either. I believe Big A wrote earlier that "any" leagal cartidge is ethical.

Here are some that my ethics say are NOT:25 Auto, 32 auto, 32 Smith, 32 Smith (long),9mm, 40 Smith...

All those cartridges will kill a human or a deer but more often than not it will not be a quick clean kill and all are legal hunting cartridges. I have shot dozens of deer with my .40 Smith and Wesson (work) but even at close range I'm careful that no public is around to see any suffering. Oh, by the way I am a TRAINED handgun shooter with hundreds of hours spent perfecting my craft, many hunters are not .

Isn't part of ethics paying respect to the animal you are killing? Shouldn't you try to ensure the quickest death that is possible rather than just shooting it and knowing it will die eventually? Maybe I'm way off base but just because you you can isn't always a reason to do something.

Ethics-

plural noun 1. (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.

2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.

3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.

4. (usually used with a singular verb) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions

[MinDak Hunter]

By the way, the .40 is not the GREAT bullet that many make it out to be. I've seen a man shot twice in the face, 1 time in the throat, and twice in the torso who still fought with us. He lived for about half a hour before dying enroute to the ER.

[Big A]

LEP7MM....

There are documented incidents involving Law Enforcement on the local and federal levels. These incidents involved suspects being shot with 12 gauge slugs!! AND THE SUSPECTS REMAINED ON THEIR FEET AND MANAGED TO SHOOT AND KILL THREE OTHER PEOPLE IN ONE INCIDENT AND THE OFFICER WHO FIRED THE SHOT IN THE OTHER!

Soooooo.... a 12 gauge slug is not a good caliber either?

Cuz... if a deer is so superior to a human when it comes to the will to survive.. and a human.. or.. ANY human as you put it... can take a 12 gauge slug and still live for long enough to return fire.. then jeez.. I guess we should all be using .50 caliber and gernades when it comes to hunting the SUPERIOR DEER.

In the case mentioned above. the suspect was the walking DEAD. Both in the 12 gauge slug incidents and the 9mm incident. People can have the adrenaline dump needed to remain alive for a period of time after receiving life ending trauma. Be it gun shot or other. But in the end.. they are dead on their feet and will eventually die.

Deer... human... doesnt matter. Put the round where it is supposed to be. And the end result will be the same.

.220 or larger. 9mm qualifies. and 9mm will work.

I did speak with a trusted friend/gun shop owner. He knows 3 people who took a deer this yr with a handgun. One was .40 caliber. One was 9mm. And one was .357 caliber. In all three cases, The deer went 30 or so yards and dropped. Lung Shots. Thats putting the round where it is supposed to be!

No I didnt see it with my own two eyes. But I trust him. And he has no reason to lie to me about that or anything else..

Just sayin.

[Big A]

MinDak,

I didnt say ETHICAL. I said .220 or larger and your good to go. LEGAL wise is what i ment.

Since apparently we are both on the same side of the law. I am sure you can understand where I am coming from with that statement. I didnt say I agreed.. just stating that is how the law is written.. so far.

I wouldnt shoot a deer with anything smaller then 9mm.

For the record.

But I would shoot one with a 9mm. And have also shot them with .40 with no issues (work). along with the 5.7x28mm with no issues (work).

[Big A]

Big A,

Thanks for answering my questions. That some good info!

No problem sparkydm. Glad to help.

[Dave S]

LEP7MM....

There are documented incidents involving Law Enforcement on the local and federal levels. These incidents involved suspects being shot with 12 gauge slugs!! AND THE SUSPECTS REMAINED ON THEIR FEET AND MANAGED TO SHOOT AND KILL THREE OTHER PEOPLE IN ONE INCIDENT AND THE OFFICER WHO FIRED THE SHOT IN THE OTHER!

If the cops who shot the guy in the upper torso 12 times were using 12 ga slugs, that person would have dropped where he stood.

For someone to continue an attack after being hit by a 12 ga slug leaves one to wonder.............Where was he shot? In the big toe?

[bobbymalone]

Cuz... if a deer is so superior to a human when it comes to the will to survive.. and a human.. or.. ANY human as you put it... can take a 12 gauge slug and still live for long enough to return fire.. then jeez.. I guess we should all be using .50 caliber and gernades when it comes to hunting the SUPERIOR DEER.

I think it's pretty well documented that deer are generally more resistant to bullet holes than people. That would make them a superior animal, at least in respect to bullet holes.

[Big A]

LEP7MM, in the cases I am speaking of. They were shot in the chest.

The officer involved shooting, where the officer was killed, the suspect was shot in the heart. But remained on his feet for 40 seconds and killed the officer who shot him.

Deer can manage the same thing. There are many of us who have seen a deer shot in the heart that runs 100 yards.... same thing.

Adrenaline is powerful stuff...

[Svinekotelett]

dude, 9mm for deer is sick, for human its way inferior. those people taking multiple 9mm rounds to the chest are more often then not pcp, and crack addicts.

[Dave S]

LEP7MM, in the cases I am speaking of. They were shot in the chest.

The officer involved shooting, where the officer was killed, the suspect was shot in the heart. But remained on his feet for 40 seconds and killed the officer who shot him.

OK, I realize you're passionate about the 9MM. But in all seriousness, if someone takes a frontal shot from a 12 ga. slug, what is wrong with the round? Without drawing too much speculation, there was a poor choice of round (bullet design).

[Big A]

You can use ANY legal caliber in a handgun in the shotgun zone.

So should I be calling out your ETHICS on this then?

cuz... you seem to be calling me out on mine. And all was saying was legally your good to go.

which to me is exactly what your saying here. Didnt think anything other until you tried to imply i did...

[Big A]

in all seriousness, if someone takes a frontal shot from a 12 ga. slug, what is wrong with the round? Without drawing too much speculation, there was a poor choice of round (bullet design).

Nothing wrong with a round that gets put through someones heart. A heart shot with a slug... even a poorly designed slug.. is still a devastating wound. Id say there is nothing wrong with that.

[Dave S]

I still find it hard to believe that even after one shot a person is still a threat and the cops look at their watch waiting for the person to die? We often hear of LEOs shooting more than once at an imminent threat to ensure that threat is no more. Kind of like the 12 9MM rounds to one person.

There are other factors involved in each case that nobody here knows. Not to mention how many people the stories travel through only to be sensationalized hundreds of times by the time they reach the internet.

[picksbigwagon]

Okay, this topic has run its course, say good night Gracie, "Good Night Gracie"