Square Lake

[mallardnwalleye]

Square Lake Study

Here is the correct (I hope) link above and yes Reinhard large bluegill eat daphnia as well. The theory is that Trout eat more and that Trout eat them when they are concentrated by the thermocline in the summer and eat too much of the seed crop in the winter. I skimmed it and it looks like a plausible idea. I will have to look at it a little closer as I don't see where they quantify how many trout are eating how many daphnia and how many bluegill are eating them.

Regardless,

1. Assuming the hypothesis is correct- How impotant is 6 extra ft. of clairity in an already clear lake if you eliminate something many people enjoy?

2. If the hypothosis is true -It seems that Daphnia predation prevents a lake from realizing it's maximum clairity and does not contribute to the permenant long term decline of mean potential clairity as phosphorus runoff and accumulation would.Note: Phosphorus levels are increasing

3.Completely eliminating trout stocking seems like an overblown reaction because you could possibly modify stocking and regulations to achieve the same or simmilar results assuming the hypothosis is correct.

My greatest concern is that a lakeshore owners group (see above) teamed with a scientist with a theory and a group of local watershed managers are going to forget about the general public as they promote their specific self interest, attempt to prove a theory, and micro-over manage something because they have the ability to do so.

[reinhard1]

thanks, that is a lengthy report but i will look through it. i wonder what the oxygen level this lake has at certain depth. the lake i fish has oxygen well over 100 feet and fish can be dispersed more. perhapst more fish are concentrated per say, thus predetation is more apt to happen at certain levels. again just speculating. good luck.

[JBMasterAngler]

So is the lake going to be stocked this fall?

[mallardnwalleye]

So is the lake going to be stocked this fall?

I don't know?

I do that there is a proposal to stop stocking the lake with trout for 3 years and then maybe eliminate it all together.

The other proposal is to have statewide trout regs in place instead of the current special regs.

The DNR Press Release didn't mention what the stocking amounts and dates would be and if that was up for discussion.

I suppose a call or email to the DNR would answer that? Maybe.

I think the DNR, The scientist, and the Watershed district all have some explaining to do to the general public. Hopefully this will happen before the meeting, during the meeting and before any decisions are made.

[mallardnwalleye]

After a quick look at the study-

My thoughts are after eyeballing the data to present:

The water clarity data shows a strong trend down and a decrease in variation after 1990-91.

That typically is associated with a change in a system.

What is the change? Not trout stocking as that has occurd since 1974. Trout Regs were changed in 1990 to "extended" and limit harvest.

The regulation change is what has "most likely" caused the change not trout stocking in and of itself.

Unfortunately some people are over-reacting and trying to stop trout stocking altogether.

I might have to crunch the numbers and show that the change is in 1990 not 1974. Although I need clarity data from pre 1974

Does anybody know where to find this?

[mallardnwalleye]

Well I did a little number crunching on the issue of trout stocking and have discovered that the idea that trout are eating the zooplankton that eat algae has some merit to it. The current regs, where the season opens late and harvest is spread out has an extremely high likelyhood of correlation with the drop in water clairity after 1991.

Stocking trout @3000+ quantities without the special regs seems to corespond with a possible greater flucuation in clairity and possibly a drop in clairity but I can't be as absolute as I don't have enough clairity data in the 70's or any pre 1973 data.

My guess as an outsider is that the special regs should definately be removed. Regulations that allow for a stock and remove trout as fast as possible should be put in place. I don't neccesarily think trout stocking has to be completely eliminated though. As you could manage it so the trout aren't stacked up in the thermocline in the summer with the algae eating zooplankton.

Here sis some number crunching documentation below:

Maybe Lake Elmo would be better as it has oxygen below the thermocline.

[DonBo]

So, why the spikes and valleys from 1980-1990? Were you able to tell if there were different stocking practices during those years?

I guess the big question is, does two or three feet of water clarity justify sacrificing the thousands of hours of recreation derived from trout fishing?

[reinhard1]

i guess i have the same question [mallard thanks for the effort with your post] and also if this lake is somehow unique for i dont see it [unless i missed it] a concern in other stream trout lakes weather designated or not. good luck

[DonBo]

and also if this lake is somehow unique for i dont see it [unless i missed it] a concern in other stream trout lakes weather designated or not. good luck

The difference between this and others is a shorter season,(I believe) and limit of only two trout.

[reinhard1]

ok, that makes it more understandable. thanks good luck.

[JBMasterAngler]

Those regulations make for some good trout fishing, as well as the possibility of some hold over trout. The trout get hit pretty hard, so it'd be a shame for the special regulation to go away. With that being said, is there any word wether it's going to be stocked this fall or not?

[mallardnwalleye]

I'd love to see it stay the same. I would be the first to scream that us fishermen are getting sc...ed. But I have to admit that the whole theory(Trout eating zooplankton that eat algae) makes some sense and the break point analysis I did screams that something changed in late 90 or 91 when the special reg was put in place (It could possibly be something else that caused it).

As much as I have gone after lake homeowners associations on here for over treating millfoil and over regulating public access I would say they have a right to water that is not trending downward in clairity as it is.

I will say that trout stocking doesn't have to be eliminated as will be discuussed at the meeting. The data does show a large flucuation after stocking was increased over 3000 fish but there isn't enough water clairity data before the trout were introduced in 1974 and much of the clairity data is missing in the mid 70's to really get a good idea about variation before any trout being stocked.

I say put em in and get em out fast and see what happens.

What is fascinating about all this is how trout really do see and eat teensy tiny things and then how that may possibly effect the whole system of a lake (with a thermocline and anoxic water below it).

As far as stocking this fall here is the link to the email that will answer your question [email protected]

By all means go to the meeting and let them know how you feel.

[itchmesir]

zooplankton.. so that's what a size 32 hook is used for haha!

[DonBo]

Meeting IS TONIGHT, 6:00 pm at the Washington County Government Center. Lower level, room 113. 14949 - 62nd Strret N., Stillwater.

I'll be there, anyone else? If the surrounding landowners are the only ones to show, I doubt we'll have any trout to catch in the upcoming seasons. We need to let the DNR know that this is not a pretty little private lake but a public jewl and that others enjoy the recreation value that the trout supply.

[mallardnwalleye]

I won't be making it to the meeting tonight as I will be running my kids around to their practices.I emailed in my opinion that the special regs could be changed as there has been a drop in clairity since the regs were put in place. I also wrote that Trout Stocking should not be discontinued as the problem with water clairity may be with the regs that are leaving trout in the lake too long but not with a put and take program. If you can't make the meeting by all means email them at DNR Metro East Fisheries It will take less than 5 minutes and can save the Square Lake trout stocking program.

Don,Let us know how the meeting went!

[DonBo]

There is a meeting tonight see below:

The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) East Metro Fisheries Office will conduct a public open house to discuss and take comments on its proposal to modify fishing regulations on Square Lake in Washington County.

The meeting will take place Thursday, Sept. 20, from 6 to 7:30 p.m. in lower level Room 13 of the Washington County Government Center, 14949 62nd St. N., in Stillwater.

DNR is proposing to drop special regulations that limit trout angling on Square Lake to catch-and-release only during the first four weeks of the open water season and during the month of October, as well as dropping a two-fish bag limit. The special regulation was aimed at extending the period of time during which trout stocked in the lake would be available for harvest, but it has been only minimally successful. Dropping the special regulation would return Square Lake to statewide trout angling rules.

In addition to discussing the proposed regulation change, the DNR will present information on a request from the Carnelian-Marine-St. Croix Watershed District that trout stocking in Square Lake be suspended for three years to conduct studies on the relation between trout and water quality. The district and some others have expressed concerns that the stocking of trout in Square Lake may be contributing to a decline in water clarity.

Those unable to attend the meeting may direct written comments until Sunday, Sept. 30, to DNR East Metro Fisheries, 1200 Warner Road, St. Paul, MN, 55106. Comments also may be delivered by email to [email protected], or by calling 651-259-5831.

[DonBo]

Surprisingly few people at the meeting tonight. The East Metro Fisheries Manager and a Fisheries Biologist. A bunch of people from the Watershed District, maybe one lakeshore owner and a handfull of fishermen.

It's the Watershed District that wants to put an end to stocking. There were a bunch of people there that were MUCH smarter than me and they made a great case that it's the trout eating the zooplankton that eat the algea that is deteriorating the water clarity. So strong of a case that I believe them. How to proceed from there is where our opinions parted ways.

They (The Watershed District) are proposing a ban of trout stocking for three years to "see" what will happen. They all agreed that it's just their best guess that no, or fewer trout will mean more zooplankton, resulting in better water clarity. I agree, but when I proposed that they just drop the special regulations to get more fish out of the system quicker, THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW there were any special regulations on the lake. When asked if turning the lake into more of a "put and take" fishery would help clean the water, well they didn't really have an answer for that.

They all claimed that this was a meeting to get everyones feelings about what to do, but it sounded to me like thier minds were already made up.

The only certainty that came out of tonight is: THERE WILL BE NO STOCKING this fall. Next spring is still a question mark.

They will be taking comments till Sept. 30 at the address or email above. PLEASE take a moment to let them know how important keeping some sort of trout fishing available to us truely is.

[tunrevir]

I can't believe that the trout are causing the decrease in water clarity. Maybe the runoff from the various homeowners lots that are manicured right to the waters edge is having an effect. I can't believe that trout would be the cause an would really like to hear the reasons behind this. Guess I should have participated in the meeting.

Turevir~

[mallardnwalleye]

Surprisingly few people at the meeting tonight. The East Metro Fisheries Manager and a Fisheries Biologist. A bunch of people from the Watershed District, maybe one lakeshore owner and a handfull of fishermen.

It's the Watershed District that wants to put an end to stocking. There were a bunch of people there that were MUCH smarter than me and they made a great case that it's the trout eating the zooplankton that eat the algea that is deteriorating the water clarity. So strong of a case that I believe them. How to proceed from there is where our opinions parted ways.

They (The Watershed District) are proposing a ban of trout stocking for three years to "see" what will happen. They all agreed that it's just their best guess that no, or fewer trout will mean more zooplankton, resulting in better water clarity. I agree, but when I proposed that they just drop the special regulations to get more fish out of the system quicker, THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW there were any special regulations on the lake. When asked if turning the lake into more of a "put and take" fishery would help clean the water, well they didn't really have an answer for that.

They all claimed that this was a meeting to get everyones feelings about what to do, but it sounded to me like thier minds were already made up.

The only certainty that came out of tonight is: THERE WILL BE NO STOCKING this fall. Next spring is still a question mark.

They will be taking comments till Sept. 30 at the address or email above. PLEASE take a moment to let them know how important keeping some sort of trout fishing available to us truely is.

I wished I could have attended the meeting.

I feel bad as when I read the press release it said present information not seek input on eliminating trout stocking.

From the sounds of it they already had there minds made up to eliminate stocking trout. If they said no stocking this fall at the meeting before written input or the meeting was over. Guess what? They made up there mind ahead of time without really considering what people think.

The ecology-biology proffesor's theory is plausable but it seems like the Watershed District, DNR and proffesor are throwing the baby out with the bathwater as perhaps a put and take fishery in the winter would work.

Unfortunately this is another example of when a local specific interest group gets to ram through it's theory/idea without any judiciousness or real public input.

I'll do some more number crunching but from the looks of it the DNR has clairity data from only one year that is pre trout stocking. They may be able to point to 1991-present (Special reg yeras)as seeing a decline in water clairity but there was some very clear water to be had in the pre- 1991 years when trout were stocked. I'll run some stats to see.

[JBMasterAngler]

Has anyone been out there since the meeting? Any trout left? I wasn't planning on fishing square this fall after hearing the bad news, but it's october now, and I only fish for trout this month...however, my wife is having a ladies' day out on saturday, and I'll have both kids, so I don't dare drive way up grindstone only to have to turn right back home Also, I normally never fished it this early in october, so if I can't salvage a trout, maybe the bass/pike will be more active than I'm normally used to.

[JBMasterAngler]

Well, I went out there today, but because the weather was crappy and I had both my kids, I didn't even bother bringing the boat. So I just made a few casts from the dock. Caught a tiny pike and a bass. So given the circumstances, it was a pretty successful day!

[DonBo]

That's more than I've accomplished so far today.

[DonBo]

Everyone knows trout prefer clean water. But is it possible those same trout can degrade the water quality of some lakes?

That's what researchers are trying to find out in the case of Square Lake, which is north of Stillwater.

For first time in years, Square Lake was not stocked with rainbow trout this fall.

Instead, on Tuesday, Nov. 20, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources released 140 nice-sized rainbows -- from 6 to 7 pounds -- into Lake Elmo, which has become the beneficiary of the Square Lake experiment.

The hefty rainbows follow about a thousand 1-pound rainbow trout that were released in Lake Elmo earlier this fall. It's the first time in at least seven years Lake Elmo will have a trout fishery. The season for inland trout starts Jan. 12.

Those trout would have been plopped into Square Lake in years past, but the DNR and the Carnelian-Marine-St. Croix Watershed District are finalizing an agreement on a three-year moratorium on trout stocking in Square Lake.

The lake has seen a decline in water clarity over the past decade or more, according to a study completed several years ago by watershed district consultants that supported what some lake homeowners had been witnessing.

Phosphorous runoff from residential or agricultural fertilizers is the usual suspect when a lake begins to cloud with algae in the summer. But the recent study, as well as a previous study in 2000, found no increase in phosphorous.

"It was a head-scratcher," said Jim Shaver, watershed district administrator.

One of the district's consultants hypothesized the stocked trout might be responsible. Here's how it would work:

Although most anglers think of rainbow trout as predators that eat small fish as well as flies and larvae -- or an earthworm on a hook -- a favorite food of rainbows is zooplankton, specifically one known as daphnia, which are no more than a few millimeters long and often much smaller. Daphnia feed on smaller phytoplankton, or algae.

Researchers found low numbers of daphnia, which could translate into a boon for algae. Perhaps taking out the trout will allow the daphnia to rebound, and they'll feast on algae. In three years, Shaver said, researchers hope to know the answer.

The trout are not native to Square Lake or Lake Elmo and will not reproduce. Like game fish -- such as walleye and muskies -- that are released in many metro lakes, the fish are stocked using proceeds from sales of fishing licenses.

Dave Orrick can be reached at 651-228-5512. Follow him at twitter.com/OutdoorsNow.

[JBMasterAngler]

So do they plan on continuing to stock rainbows in lake elmo for at least the next 3 years? Could be interesting. However, what about all the walleyes and tiger muskie they stock? Also, the established cisco population will compete with the trout. Poor square lake

[itchmesir]

dumb stocker rainbows seem like perfect food for muskies =)