shooting a sow with cubs

[mudslinger64]

there is someone from mn on another board that is talking about his first time bear hunting buddies that shot a sow that had cubs with her.i won't go into details here on the hunt because it really burns me up,but i don't recall seeing in the regs if it was legal to do this or not.i know you can't shot a cub under 1 year but what about a sow with cubs.this has kept me up most of the night,i just can't believe some guys.

[nik]

I believe shooting a sow with cubs is legal, but not very ethical. That is very unfortanate that someone wouldn't have enough respect for the animal that they are hunting to do that. It is also very unfortanate that now there will be some cubs wondering around with no direction. They most likely will not survive the winter now. I am with you mudslinger. This bugs me as well! No respect!

[lichen fox]

You're right, it is legal in Mn...but to each his own...the Mn Dnr's biologists stance is that the cubs have a "normal" 80 - 90% survival rate when the sow is killed whether by hunting or getting run over by a car or whatever...But, in my humble opinion, if someone decides to take a sow with a cub they

should surely keep it quite...it just adds fuel to the anti-hunting movement and that's something none of us need...when you hear about something that's legal but probably borders on "your view" of ethical or unethical...don't post it all over the internet for the anti's to see...you're just giving extra press to something that deserves no-press...

[bogwalker]

You're right, it is legal in Mn...but to each his own...the Mn Dnr's biologists stance is that the cubs have a "normal" 80 - 90% survival rate when the sow is killed whether by hunting or getting run over by a car or whatever...But, in my humble opinion, if someone decides to take a sow with a cub they

should surely keep it quite...it just adds fuel to the anti-hunting movement and that's something none of us need...when you hear about something that's legal but probably borders on "your view" of ethical or unethical...don't post it all over the internet for the anti's to see...you're just giving extra press to something that deserves no-press...

I believe that your statement about hiding unethical acts of hunters does much more harm than true sportsmen showing their outrage against unethical individuals and their acts. Speaking out against wrong is ethical. Sweeping wrong actions under the carpet makes you sound like one of them.

[lichen fox]

"ethical or unethical" is a personal belief....NOT A LAW...no law was broken...so, who are we helping by "calling out" our own?

Why don't we just go on the local radio or tv station and say what kind of slobs and idiots our fellow hunters are...that would really get our point across to "everybody" it would also make a great commercial for the anti-hunting movement...if the law is not broken...don't talk negatively about another's choice just because they disagree with your beliefs...don't bash someone for shooting a smaller buck if it's legal...don't bash someone for keeping smaller fish than you, if it's legal...don't bash someone for using food plots to attract deer, or even bait, "if it's legal".....in some states it is, in other's it's not....We don't need any more fuel for any more laws telling us that we don't know what we're doing and need more laws to guide us...

[Brownie77]

I agree with l fox, if you are doing every thing legaly, there is no reason for others to bash you.

[mudslinger64]

i was only wondering if it was legal or not that is why i didn't copy and paste the post or give any details on what was posted.

[picksbigwagon]

Fox is correct, Mudslinger you are correct in asking the question.

I have never bear hunted (someday I will, SOMEDAY!!!) so I have no idea how hard it is to see the "branch and berries" on a bear.

Their is no law against shooting a sow, each person has their own ethics and standards when it comes to hunting. (shoot a sow or not, shoot a basket 8 buck or not, take a buck while party hunting, etc. )

Educating others without demeaning them is the best way to get others to start changing their hunting ethics.

[bogwalker]

"ethical or unethical" is a personal belief....NOT A LAW...no law was broken...so, who are we helping by "calling out" our own?

Why don't we just go on the local radio or tv station and say what kind of slobs and idiots our fellow hunters are...that would really get our point across to "everybody" it would also make a great commercial for the anti-hunting movement...if the law is not broken...don't talk negatively about another's choice just because they disagree with your beliefs...don't bash someone for shooting a smaller buck if it's legal...don't bash someone for keeping smaller fish than you, if it's legal...don't bash someone for using food plots to attract deer, or even bait, "if it's legal".....in some states it is, in other's it's not....We don't need any more fuel for any more laws telling us that we don't know what we're doing and need more laws to guide us...

Making something legal does not make it ethical. Also I do not consider a hunter who shoots a sow with cubs my fellow hunter. He may be a hunter but IN MY OPINION he is no sportsman. Small fish, small bucks etc. don't really compare with bear cubs freezing to death this winter. I guess I am not one to fall in line behind something just because it is legal. There is still right and wrong. I also believe that I have the right to voice my opinion just as you have the right to express yours.

[lichen fox]

As I said..."to each his own"....as long as it's within the law. As for the cubs surviving...The Dnr bear biologists must believe that the cubs chances are at least average or better otherwise I'm sure there would be a push to change the law...

[Matt Breuer]

All of you are assuming the cubs won't make it. Have you seen a cub this time of year? They're pretty big, and don't have any predators. More than likely they'll find their way to a den, as they'll run into other bears in the area and team up w/ some yearlings or the like.

If you've shot a doe while deer hunting, probably best to not judge... that deer could've had fawns, or could possibly be a breeder.

I personally won't shoot a sow w/ cubs unless the circumstance doesn't leave me a comfortable choice. Or, I suppose I would shoot a sow w/ cubs in tow if they were the only bear coming into my bait. I don't spend a clean $K to watch bear.

I agree w/ fox, the person should've left it at, "I shot a bear."

[bogwalker]

I know I get worked up over this subject. Nothing personal against those who disagree with me. I know the stand the DNR takes but I disagree. Not all of their biologists agree with the department on this one either. The DNR says if you shoot a sow with cubs the cubs "might" survive. If you shoot a sow without cubs she may be pregnant and the unborn cubs will certainly die. My research area is in timber wolf country. We also have cougar, bobcat, lynx, brush wolves and other predators. The DNR does not do bear research in the fall (during hunting season) so part of their picture is missing. Black bear are not very good at survival for the first couple years of their lives. Usually by the time mom runs the cubs off they do pretty well. Cubs entering winter without their mother will almost certainly die. Something to consider too is the decrease in the black bear population in Minnesota. If you have hunted bear for 10 years or more in Minnesota the decrease is startling. Whether the DNR acknowledges this fact or not it is true. I am just stating my opinion.

[Muthagoose]

Quote:

I suppose I would shoot a sow w/ cubs in tow if they were the only bear coming into my bait. I don't spend a clean $K to watch bear.

Anytime $ are brought into the equation the sow dies.

Comparing bear to deer is like apples to grapes...

Whens the last time you saw management tags for bear in a urban area? There is no comparison and there is a decline in bear population...

[Matt Breuer]

In the no-quota zone you get 2 tags. Isn't that a management related?

When talking ethics, you can compare anything you want. People are complaining about the possibility of a young animal dying because it's parent has been shot. You can apply that to anything that moves, in comparisons...

[nik]

Oh boy! This is one of those abortion style arguments that there is no right answer. Like stated earlier, the correct statement should have been "I shot a bear" I guess we all don't know the circumstances on this particular bear. Money, safety, or lack of experience could have contributed to this sow being taken. Whats ethical for one person, might not be ethical for the next guy. It does bug me that this did happen, but I guess it is what it is. All laws were followed and I am sure this particular person is very pleased with the bear they got.

[Muthagoose]

No quota is usually crop destroyers or problem bears.

As for young animals.

Unlike deer that generally yard or group for protection, bear don't and tend to be solitary so whats the comparison there?

With that in mind its only sensible to consider protecting sows with cubs.

Considering how a sow is usually influenced by the needs of cubs and replenishing lost body weight they are so much easier to draw into a bait than a boar.

If its legal and you feel its the best you can do then go right ahead. It just bothers me when I read that some would consider how money was spent and they should get a animal.

Some guys pull the trigger on the first bear they see. I'll wait for that high shouldered boar its worth it.

Everyone's right,just voicing my opinion.

[Matt Breuer]

That's what nuisance bear permits are for.

I had 10 bear in my bait this year, they were all coming from the same cedar swamp.

I disagree w/ shooting a sow w/ cubs, but like I said, there are circumstances.... I'll shoot a yearling every year if I have the chance. Easy to clean, don't stink as badly, and are far less expensive at the locker...

[Big Buck Buster]

Maybe the person just enjoys the taste of bear meat, weather it be a boar, or a sow.

[Boar]

Boy that su cks. but it is leagal an should'nt be. It should not be swept under the rug an hidden but maybe turn it around an try to educate those that have or might be willing to shoot a sow with cubs. When i first started hunting bear i knew little so i took the helm an went to one of those bear clinics that are still given today. The wildlife mngrs that put this on, an they are put on all over the state, really pointed out to us that it is legale but advised us against it an really educated us on the issue. There where first timers there an verterens bear hunters, these clinics are really fun to go to cause you get to talk with guys an gals face to face about bear hunting, much like we do here.It's hard not to get upset but sometimes we need to try an turn a negative into a positeve. Boar

[kelly-p]

It really bothers me thinking of the cubs that are orphaned each year. It is my feeling that they will have a lot harder time surviving without Mom around to show them where to go for food. Without Mom there to protect them they will have no chance against a Timber Wolf. If they do make it up a tree the wolf knows that they have to come down sometime. If they do survive they will be smaller the first few years of their life then other bears born at the same time because they do not eat as good. I also believe that many of MN's "problem bears" in peoples birdfeeders and such are orphaned cubs that never had time to learn from Mom where to find food or where to move to at different times of the year for food. Our hunters are told before they sign up that we do not shoot sows with cubs. If they do not like that they can go hunt with someone else. This year one first time bear hunter with us was from California. He spent a lot of time and money for this hunt but went home with out a bear. On two different baits he had a sow and cub show show up that had never been there before and the sow kept the boars out of bow range while the cub ate. He passed on the sows. He's coming back next year if he can draw a tag and I'm sure he will get a big boar because he has some good Karma going for him now.

[bogwalker]

kelly-p is right. I have photos of a young bear (2-3 year old) that was torn apart by timber wolves. Anyone who thinks that bears are not hunted by predators in Minnesota is mistaken. Timber wolves especially enjoy bear meat. I watched timber wolves chasing a bear in North East Itasca County. That bear was terrified and made no attempt to stop and fight off the wolves. Motherless cubs in wolf country have little chance of survival.

[Muthagoose]

Exactly right Kelly P................

You earn a good boar...

Bogwalker

We have entirely to many wolves this year,never seen so many.I posted a picture of one on the "hunting" forum of a young one with mange.

All of our sites were over run with wolves and once the wife shot her 6' BOAR the dang wolves over took that site.Usually I dump our extra bait to feed sow and young ones but it did'nt go to bears that for sure.

I have one pic with a single wolf in the bait and many sets of eyes in the background..We need a season on them soon.....

.

[fishnhooks]

This is my first year Bear hunting. I have learned alot from people on and off this site. It has been very fun and interesting. One of the most important things that I think I learned this year is that if I harvest a Sow that has cubs, that I could actually be harvesting the Sow and killing the cubs. Not my cup of tea and not how I was raised.

"hooks"

[mrklean]

When you bring ethics into hunting you will get different opinions, its like baiting, some places its legal others its not, is it ethic even where its legal? Shooting a sow with cubs is it legal, yes was it ethical???? Certain subjects turn sportsman against each other, never wanna see that.

[Musky Buck]

Mr.Klean is right, we'll never get everyone on board no matter what the topic is, I wouldn't shoot the sow but some will, to some hunting is a year round sport to others it's just a in season kind of thing. Some hunt for meat and shooting part and some that's the lowest of priorities to them. I bet some sat with heavy mosquito's for many nights and thought the next good bear I'm taking, same with deer and cold next decent deer to come along is going down etc. Maybe the same guy will think well I'm not ever doing that again, was it his first bear or 50th, always lots of unanswered questions, good luck hunting guys !