Buck management

[bigbucks]

I'm definitely not in favor of a buck tag lottery, I agree it works, but it's something to be avoided if possible. Stopping the party hunting would take away so much of the tradition & drop so many hunters from the already dwindling ranks, it just wouldn't make sense.

The thing we all need to remember is although WE (the guys who frequent these kind of forums) would like to shoot bigger bucks, we are a reasonably small percentage of the population of deer hunters, we're the diehards. We're the guys who log a very high percentage of the time hunting. It still isn't really reasonable to expect to impose our views on the other deer hunters, just because they choose to hunt less, other than by education/discussion. They should have the same rights as we do.

It's kind of an evolutionary process, the long time hunters know if they shoot only bucks the herd (population wise) will be fine. Those that hunted back in the 70's can remember there being almost no deer & never ever want to go back to that. We still need to continue to educate them & we are & a lot of those guys are getting to the point where they aren't as mobile or don't shoot as much or whatever & they probably don't kill as many of the deer for their parties as they used to. As the younger generations with new ways of viewing deer hunting start taking the reins things will change, because it's easier for us to realize the deer herd has changed. We don't have that stigma/mindset of "don't kill does" ingrained in us (hopefully). I do think the hunting video market also has made us a little bit too "big buck crazy". I know look at my handle I'm guilty of it too.

[bigbucks]

stockchopper, not ripping on you, just wanted to discuss your post.

I'll agree almost everyone wants to shoot a nice buck, I worded that poorly. What I meant is that everyone doesn't want to shoot a nice buck bad enough to not shoot other bucks/deer.

Obviously for you party hunting wasn't something that was "all that great" that doesn't mean that other people don't enjoy it. If someone has a "trigger happy cousin" that shoots all their deer & they don't like it, then obviously they should change the way their party hunts or stop hunting with them, which obviously you did. I guess I still don't see that as a basis for outlawing it.

I also don't understand how shooting less small bucks is going to make for less young deer on the roads to get hit by cars, it seems to me like that means there would be more. If you meant because people had to shoot more does & fawns then I guess that makes sense to me.

[jblabsnduck]

The whole problem is that MN is one of VERY FEW states that has gun season during the rut. Every person out there during gun season will shoot that buck they see no matter what.(maybe not every person but most people) MN needs to hold off on opening the gun season. All of the young bucks that have great potentional to grow nice big racks are getting killed when they are 1-2 years old. How do people think that we are going to have nice bucks when this happens all the time?? I go to drop off a deer that I killed with my bow during guns sesaon and there is a ton of little 1-2 year old bucks that would have been monsters when they reached the good age of 4-5 years old but instead they got shot because they where out running around during rut. It is a shame. Sure some nice bucks are taken but there would be a lot more of them if they where not getting shot so young. The way this will happen in open gun season later.IMO

[stockchopper]

Bigbucks
Why should one guy be able to shoot more the one buck? I call it greed. I've been guilty of it myself. When people can kill only one buck maybe they'll think twice before they pull the trigger. I still think people should be able to hunt together after they fill their tag. The biggest problem I believe is guys who buy tags for people not hunting. Bowhunters do this often.

I would reduce the adult doe population by a third to half the current population. Which would reduce the number of fawns running around on the roads. I would replace the does with bucks not shot in the previous season. Its hard to explain, but trust me it works. More and bigger bucks to shoot.

I'm mostly talking about the southern half of the state. We should manage each part of the state differently. Up north there is more cover and the fact that one hard winter can kill most of the deer. In the southern part of the we can still kill most of the bucks even without the rut.

[bigbucks]

So you would party hunt for does, but not bucks? I understand what you're saying, but what a bugger for a CO to enforce. Unless you see somebody shoot a buck, how do you know who shot it anyway?

Maybe they should just make it where you don't have any either sex tags & you can't buy a buck tag if you don't at least buy a doe tag. A lot of guys would probably fill it if they had it, & at least that would bring in more license money. That way in parties that don't care, they might decide to save some money & not buy as many buck tags or everyone would still buy one, but then they wouldn't want to share them, it's just a thought. You'd still limit it to one buck tag per person.

[Ole1855]

How would everyone feel about a shorter season with a license that was good for either buck or doe? This is the way it used to be way back when and I seem to remember bigger bucks back in those days.

Ole

[stockchopper]

Bigbucks,
All good questions. Which all have answers. It all has been done before. My idea of deer management comes from a combination of SD, Iowa, Wy, and CO. Have you ever hunted these states or understand their regulations. I also like to do away with going to gas stations and registing deer, and useing a system like SD with mail surveys for each area. I'd also hire more Co's, and raise the price on buck tags, and offer multiple doe tags through a drawing at a reduced price. So if you hunted in a party you could buy up to 4 doe tags and shoot them yourself and 1 buck. All depending on the number of hunters and number of deer available. Also offer private land only deer tags.

[PerchJerker]

I have to say Ole that short seasons like we have in Zone 4a and Zone 4b are part of the problem - there's just not enough time to be "picky" about what you shoot.

I hunted in Zone 4a -- a 2 day season -- for several years, and if you don't fill your tag on Saturday you better shoot something on Sunday or the season is over. There's not many hunters letting young bucks walk away in that situation. Brown is down.

Longer hunting seasons, and seasons held after the peak of the rut, will encourage more hunters to let those young bucks live another year or two.

[Stratosman]

I agree with Perchjerk in regards to 4A and 4B, I have hunted 4B for the last 12 years. We shoot alot of deer, fill all the tags most years, mostly does though, between the four of us we might shoot two bucks and I can count on one hand the number of quality bucks. The short season is exactly why most the bucks shot are small - no time to be picky. I am the only one out of the group who bowhunts this property so I can afford to be more patient and wait for bigger deer. Also this year I bought the all season tag which allows me more opportunity to bag a bigger buck. Although antler restrictions would be nice, and I would a big supporter of it, it wouldn't work in those short season zones. It would tee off the guy who hunts 4A and has 2 whole days to find a deer. Sticky subject, but I like how the DNR is dropping hints about QDM in the regs this year.

[stockchopper]

I party hunted for many years, its not all that great. The change won't be that drastic. Your trigger happy cousin just wouldn't be able to shoot all your deer.

The threat of dropping so many hunters from our dwindling ranks just don't make sense. Intrest in Mn deer hunting would actually increase. People love mature whitetails. Nature lovers would also be very happy.

Almost everyone hunting wants to shoot a nice buck, not just the diehards. In fact more bucks would be killed in the 2nd year of the change, plus half the bucks would be 2 years old and older. And less young deer to hit with cars is always a good thing.

The 70's were bad because of bad winters more than deer management. The plan was to bring the population back, I think we have accomplished our goal. Times change, smart people adapt.

[BLACKJACK]

The dirty little secret about QDM is that in order for it to work, more does need to be shot - lots more does - in order to get the buck/doe ratio equalized. When you cut down the number of does that means less deer running around and you might not be able to shoot a deer every year. Is that what people want? I think not. According to DNR surveys, the majority of hunters are happy with their deer hunting, and I'm one of them. If fact, I think deer hunting is as good as its ever been in MN! I remember the days when our party of four was lucky to get one doe permit. It gets to be a long season when you're only buck hunting. Or if I shot a deer early in bow season, I was done hunting. Now with my all season permit, I can shoot a doe early with my bow, slug hunt and shoot another doe, and still bow hunt or muzzle load into Dec. Life and and deer hunting is good!

When the day comes that I want to shoot a wallhanger buck, I'll do the scouting it takes to find one, then pass on the small bucks until Mr. Big comes along. Big bucks are out there, all you have to do is look at all the pictures that get published in the fall. But for the people pushing antler restictions, knowing that there are big deer out there isn't good enough, they don't want to put in the time and effort to get a big deer, they want it legislated to be more big bucks, so they don't have to work as hard. It sounds good in theory, having more big bucks running around, but as I said earlier, the rest of the herd pays a price, and the people that like to shoot a deer every year won't be able to.

The deer hunting is MN is as good as I've ever seen, leave it alone!!! Lets not let a vocal minority ruin our deer hunting!

[bigbucks]

Amen Blackjack, you said it exactly the way I feel.

I'm getting to the point where I'll put in the time for that bigger buck, while I shoot does, but I agree the hunting now is so much better than it was 15 years ago even, it doesn't compare.

[stockchopper]

Have you guys hunted in a different state besides Minnesota?

[Thunderchicken]

I agree with Stockchopper and Blackjack. I use to live in Minnesota and hunted deer in the north country and around my home town of Appleton, which is about the same area as Stockchoppers. But now I live in SD and from my past seasons here there is no comparison that there are a lot bigger bucks over here than what I ever saw in MN. I like how here in SD we have to send in for a drawing. To see what kind of tag you get and if your first choice isn't drawed you get a preferace point every year you don't get it.You either get an Any Deer or Anterless Deer tags. That way when you get a doe tag if you want some meat in the freezer thats all you get to shoot. And if you get the Any Deer tag you get the chance to shoot a buck if you so chose. And sence I have been sending in it seams to be every other year you get a Any Deer tag. Which means you get to shoot a buck if he comes along but if not you still can shoot a doe on the last day. It's great hunting and everyone that has comes over from MN to hunt with me has said the same thing " I havn't seen this many bucks in my life! " And the funny thing is that I only hunt on publis land over here, which I think says a lot about the way they regulate the season. Hunt on public land around Appleton and you are lucky to even see a buck. And what Blackjack is saying about putting in your time to get a wall hanger is also true. I hunted up in the dense forest by Ely about 3 or 4 years and it never failed we would stay a week and on one of the last days some one out of our group shot a big one. This has been my opinion for a long time about how MN is handling things over there for a long time and that is I don't believe that everyone should be able to shoot a buck every year. If you are going to hand out a tag to every one that wants one than make it a doe tag and send in for the buck tag. Just opposite of the way they have it now. Just my opinion!!!

Save a tree eat a beaver!

[stockchopper]

Thunderchicken I've seen the same thing your talking about. I hunted around Correll for 15 years in a group of 10 to 15 guys and hunt a couple thousands of private land and of course the public land around marsh lake. We killed lots of deer but it isn't like SD. Everyone kills all the bucks. After the season you can drive around and see a couple hundred does and maybe if lucky see one buck who made it through the season. I think thats terrible. As I said earlier the northwoods is different I'm talking about western Minnesota. And if any of you guys still don't think its better to limit buck tags call a friend in SD or Iowa and ask if they would rather have it our way or better yet go bowhunting in eastern SD. They love it so much they don't want to share.

[jlm]

I agree with some of your points, however, I do not agree that SD has a better deer herd than MN. I don't even think there is a comparison in my opinion. Sheer numbers, there is no comparison and large bucks there is no comparison, MN wins hands down. I think it has to do more with the area you hunt. In MN, there are great areas and poor areas as I am sure the same could be said for SD. Both areas that you said you hunt in MN are not really known for fantastic deer hunting. Move to other parts of the state and you might change your opinion. I am in no way knocking SD, its a beautiful state and it has some great opportunities. The good thing about MN hunting is that it offers opportunities for everyone. If you want to hunt Mr. Big, you can do it. If you want to shoot a bunch of deer, you can. I think our system is working well. If it is not, I would suggest finding another spot to hunt! Just my opinion!

[Rost]

JLM-
Yes, the deer hunting can be totally different in areas across a state. Maybe the St. Cloud area is better then the Appleton area. But so far on this post alone, we have three guys that have moved from western MN to Eastern SD that will agree that the lottery system works. Like I said in the previous post, I have seen more wallhangers here in the last two years, then my previous years in MN. I did not spend my first 15 years of deer hunting in MN with my eyes closed

We've experienced deer hunting in MN and SD. And we like the SD deer better.

[Ole1855]

PerchJerker,
My point exactly, you have less time to hunt, we have too many doe's so the buck-to-doe ratio is way off. We need to take a few more doe's and leave the young buck's alone. I would have to believe that my personal experience isn't too far off what others see for deer while hunting, and I see 5-10 doe's for every buck, so it shouldn't be too hard for somebody to put meat in the freezer, if that's what you're after.

Ole

[Bogsucker]

The point of my original post was, can we do something other than quotas or antler point restrictions that would improve the quality and numbers of bucks in Minnesota? I have no desire to ask someone to not shoot a buck so that I might shoot a bigger one, I'd only ask that someone not shoot 2 or 3 or more bucks that I or someone else might get to shoot one of or maybe even the buck(s) would not get shot that year and be a larger racked buck(s) next year for someone to shoot.

[jlm]

Rost-
I actually do not hunt the St. Cloud area, I hunt in Northern MN. You have to get away from the crowds for good deer hunting (there are exceptions of course). The good thing about SD is that it has a small population which makes it easier for land access and there are pretty good areas to hunt. I am by all means not putting SD down, its a great state with tremendous opportunites. I might even move ther someday, that would be my second choice over MN. However, as far as quality deer hunting, I would not pass the area that I hunt for anything. Love the area and the hunting is fantastic if you put in the time. If I hunted in some other areas of MN I could not say the same thing! Good luck and I am happy you have found some good hunting ground!

[bigbucks]

I definitely agree with jlm & also most of what the last post said. Last year bowhunting I had a hard time finding does for a long time. Everywhere I hunted it was fawns & small bucks, about half & half. I don't think there's a shortage of bucks, but there is a lot less bigger ones, at least in our area. Although I agree with earlier posts that there's still plenty of bigger ones if you want to hunt hard enough for them.

[Stratosman]

I would also doubt that SD and ND have bigger deer than MN. I know a farmer in ND where I duck hunt and he shoots HUGE deer every year, but there are a lot less people hunting per square mile than in most parts of MN, therefore not every 1-1/2 year old deer gets shot. Less hunter competition = possibility of shooting bigger deer each year. Probably the only realistic way to increase numbers of quality bucks is to manage the land you hunt on if possible, and talk to surrounding property owners to see if they are willing to do the same, that way at least in the general area you have more potential for larger deer. But I'll bet that would be a hard sell in most cases. I used to be guilty of this and I know other people that are - they shoot the first spike buck that walks by and then complain about there not being any big deer around. Just like anything else, patience is a virtue, for every small one you let pass, your odds increase of shooting a bigger one. But for those who can only swing a couple days in the woods a year, shoot whatever the hell you want, I guess I would, I would rather go home and eat venison that have to eat my tag.

[honker23]

I'm glad someone finally mentioned the point about hunter population differences for MN and SD. When land is so hard to come by in MN, people are happy to shoot a deer, especially in a 2 day season.
If you don't want all the little bucks shot, limit the hunt in the rut. I hunt in SE MN during the 2nd season, doe and buck. You wouldn't believe the amount of bucks shot during the rut in the first season. I think all other methods of producing bigger bucks would be less successful than this.

[Rost]

Hunting Population? I grew up in Ivanhoe, MN..Population 761.. Overall population of Lincoln county is is about 5,000 people.

I now live in Madison, SD.. Population 6,500. Population of Lake County must be around 10,000 (I'd guess). Lake County has the most bow hunters per capita in SD (according to the local archery dealer).

Thank the lord they don't just pass out buck tags around here.

[jblabsnduck]

I do a lot of duck and pheasant hunting in Ivanhoe and Canby area. I tell you one thing, I wish I lived a lot closer to there. We see HUGE RACK bucks out there all the time. Last year I saw the biggest deer I have ever seen in my life out in Ivanhoe. It was a HUGE 12 pointer. I bet he would have dressed easy at 250lbs and I mean easy.
I don't know how anyone could say that is the worst place to hunt for the big boys. I have never hunted there mainly because I don't need to but I have seen monsters out there.

[This message has been edited by jblabsnduck (edited 09-10-2004).]